Donald Trump & 2016 Election

[jarmo]

3M and GM are great arguments FOR capitalism.

I see what you're saying, but you have to remember that GM wouldn't exist today without the governments helping them. That's not pure capitalism at all.

Capitalism is like Just In Time logistics. When everything is normal, sales keep growing and so on, it's fine. When something extraordinary happens, they're asking for government help. Pretty much the opposite of capitalism. The scary idea of government ownership and them meddling in peoples' lives.



/jarmo

[sandman]

3M and GM are great arguments FOR capitalism.

I see what you're saying, but you have to remember that GM wouldn't exist today without the governments helping them. That's not pure capitalism at all.

Capitalism is like Just In Time logistics. When everything is normal, sales keep growing and so on, it's fine. When something extraordinary happens, they're asking for government help. Pretty much the opposite of capitalism. The scary idea of government ownership and them meddling in peoples' lives.



/jarmo

the US does not have a pure capitalist system. I don't think anyone is arguing for that either.

and remember, not all buyouts and government assistance are the same. 

[jarmo]

Sure.

Just saying that the whole "the market will take care of it" hasn't seemed to work so far...

It's like having a football match without referees.



/jarmo

[sandman]

Just saying that the whole "the market will take care of it" hasn't seemed to work so far...

who says that? I've never heard that comment said in absolute terms. it seems like you are trying to imply that capitalists do not want any government influence. that is not true. nearly 100% of people who support capitalism want some level of government influence in the economy.

[jarmo]

I'm not implying anything. Just stating that some are always against anything to do with the governments regulating businesses. Happens everywhere.

You mean they're for government influence when it means they can have more money?





/jarmo

[sandman]

I'm not implying anything. Just stating that some are always against anything to do with the governments regulating businesses. Happens everywhere.

You mean they're for government influence when it means they can have more money?





/jarmo

oh gotcha. maybe people are different in your country. I've never met anyone that wants absolutely no involvement of government in the economy.

[jarmo]

oh gotcha. maybe people are different in your country. I've never met anyone that wants absolutely no involvement of government in the economy.

I'm sure you can find these people who are against them. They'll accept them once they're in place, but that doesn't mean they want them if they had a choice.


Isn't the current president one of those crusaders for less regulations?

Obviously regulations were added for a reason. For example after what happened in 2007-2008.




/jarmo

[sandman]

oh gotcha. maybe people are different in your country. I've never met anyone that wants absolutely no involvement of government in the economy.

I'm sure you can find these people who are against them. They'll accept them once they're in place, but that doesn't mean they want them if they had a choice.


Isn't the current president one of those crusaders for less regulations?

Obviously regulations were added for a reason. For example after what happened in 2007-2008.




/jarmo

Yes, Trump, and millions of people are for less regulations. that is, getting rid of regulations that do not make sense. I work with insurance companies and insurance regulators and am quite familiar with many regs that are completely worthless and cost companies and tax payers a lot of unnecessary money. But I also see plenty of regs that are extremely valuable to the industry, stockholders, and policyholders.

Trump is generally for less regulations. But he is not for no regulation. important distinction.

[jarmo]

Sure. My point is that some of these regulations were put there for a reason. Now for one, it could be worthless to have it, while for someone else it makes sense.

An extreme example: If you wanna make more money, regulations protecting the environment are worthless. So I'm sure you can find those who say these kinds of regulations have no place in business. While others would disagree.




/jarmo

[PermissionToLand]

I just wanted to correct your false statements, and clarify a misleading story.

Oh toss off, you know I meant the normal market rate. Typical dishonest response from you.

And there was nothing misleading about it at all. You literally quoted the article as your response and refuted none of its claims.

3M and GM are great arguments FOR capitalism.

Funny, according to your guy, GM had to be forced to make them at cost using the DPA...

But yeah, all the companies who aren't exploiting this tragedy totally make up for the ones who are! That means the system is not flawed, right? If it only allows some exploitation?

The company referenced in the article are not producing masks. They are essentially providing a service. So a comparison to what its costs 3M and honeywell doesn’t make any sense.

Yeah, he only gave $55 Million to a middleman! That certainly doesn't prove his incompetence!

But i agree the price sounds high and its unfortunate greed comes into play in the middle of a pandemic.

Again, that is how markets work. Supply and demand. This is not "unfortunate", this is markets operating how they are designed. As they say, don't hate the player, hate the game.

[PermissionToLand]

the US does not have a pure capitalist system. I don't think anyone is arguing for that either.

LOL, nobody is arguing for that? Tell me one thing the GOP does not want to privatize. I'll wait.

nearly 100% of people who support capitalism want some level of government influence in the economy.

I've never met anyone that wants absolutely no involvement of government in the economy.

 

What rock do you live under where Libertarians don't exist? Anarchists?

[PermissionToLand]

Major Trump Donor Pocketed Millions While His Firm Received More Stimulus Funds Than Any Public Company: Report

https://lawandcrime.com/covid-19-pandemic/major-trump-donor-pocketed-millions-while-his-firm-received-more-stimulus-funds-than-any-public-company-report/

Cronyism as always. FILLING THE SWAMP!

Medical supplier says FEMA seized 400,000 N95 masks, has them ‘just sitting on a loading dock at JFK’

https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-delaware-company-says-fema-seized-mask-shipments-amid-coronavirus-20200421-3yz7dks53fbl7jlrjhuq2xokyu-story.html

McConnell says no ‘blue state’ coronavirus bailouts, effectively telling New York to drop dead

https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-mcconnell-bailouts-new-york-20200422-fjli4iuxznapdol3csfzyu7j3q-story.html

Trump and Fox News Are Suddenly Silent on Their “Miracle” Drug Hydroxychloroquine

https://www.motherjones.com/coronavirus-updates/2020/04/trump-and-fox-news-are-suddenly-silent-on-their-miracle-drug-hydroxychloroquine/

[sandman]

Sure. My point is that some of these regulations were put there for a reason. Now for one, it could be worthless to have it, while for someone else it makes sense.

An extreme example: If you wanna make more money, regulations protecting the environment are worthless. So I'm sure you can find those who say these kinds of regulations have no place in business. While others would disagree.




/jarmo

I would say ALL regulations were put in place for a reason. But some are no longer useful.

Obama ended a number of regulations. i'm sure there were some that many would argue were important and provided some protections. there are hundreds of thousands of regs in the US. we could debate them all for the rest of our lives.

But my main point stands. and it seems like you agree. 

[sandman]

I just wanted to correct your false statements, and clarify a misleading story.

Oh toss off, you know I meant the normal market rate. Typical dishonest response from you.

And there was nothing misleading about it at all. You literally quoted the article as your response and refuted none of its claims.

3M and GM are great arguments FOR capitalism.

Funny, according to your guy, GM had to be forced to make them at cost using the DPA...

But yeah, all the companies who aren't exploiting this tragedy totally make up for the ones who are! That means the system is not flawed, right? If it only allows some exploitation?

The company referenced in the article are not producing masks. They are essentially providing a service. So a comparison to what its costs 3M and honeywell doesn’t make any sense.

Yeah, he only gave $55 Million to a middleman! That certainly doesn't prove his incompetence!

But i agree the price sounds high and its unfortunate greed comes into play in the middle of a pandemic.

Again, that is how markets work. Supply and demand. This is not "unfortunate", this is markets operating how they are designed. As they say, don't hate the player, hate the game.

there is a shortage of masks and we are in a life and death situation. and you are saying our government should not do everything they can to obtain them.

you do not understand the difference between a producer of a product, and the provider of a service.

and you have no appreciation for the benefits of supply and demand and how the high price is in some ways a good thing, because it reduces the number of masks that will be bought by the general public (when it is the health care workers on the front lines that actually need them), and it announces to the world that we need more masks and incentivizes companies around the globe to produce more.

[sandman]

the US does not have a pure capitalist system. I don't think anyone is arguing for that either.

LOL, nobody is arguing for that? Tell me one thing the GOP does not want to privatize. I'll wait.

nearly 100% of people who support capitalism want some level of government influence in the economy.

I've never met anyone that wants absolutely no involvement of government in the economy.

 

What rock do you live under where Libertarians don't exist? Anarchists?

so you believe Libertarians want ZERO government influence on the economy?  wrong again!

and I don't know any anarchists.

huge difference between small government and no government.

[sandman]

Bernie Bros are getting a lot of crap in the press these days. Some are even saying they won't vote for Biden.

they are a unique group who like to aggressively attack people who disagree with them on social media, but I do feel bad for them - they had the primary stolen from them in 2016, essentially had it stolen from them again in 2020, and now the winning candidate they are expected to vote for looks like he has dementia. gotta be a tough position to be in.

watching Biden struggle to complete a sentence and make a coherent thought every other day is almost not even be funny anymore.

the DNC has to do something.

[LunsJail]

Bernie Bros are getting a lot of crap in the press these days. Some are even saying they won't vote for Biden.

they are a unique group who like to aggressively attack people who disagree with them on social media, but I do feel bad for them - they had the primary stolen from them in 2016, essentially had it stolen from them again in 2020, and now the winning candidate they are expected to vote for looks like he has dementia. gotta be a tough position to be in.

watching Biden struggle to complete a sentence and make a coherent thought every other day is almost not even be funny anymore.

the DNC has to do something.

How did the primary get stolen from Bernie?  It was put to a vote and Biden won most of the states. Bernie got even less votes than he did in 2016. The problem with the Bernie Bros is that they seem to be way louder on social media than they are at the voting booth.

[COMAMOTIVE]

Bernie Bros are getting a lot of crap in the press these days. Some are even saying they won't vote for Biden.

they are a unique group who like to aggressively attack people who disagree with them on social media, but I do feel bad for them - they had the primary stolen from them in 2016, essentially had it stolen from them again in 2020, and now the winning candidate they are expected to vote for looks like he has dementia. gotta be a tough position to be in.

watching Biden struggle to complete a sentence and make a coherent thought every other day is almost not even be funny anymore.

the DNC has to do something.

Biden's alarming decline is very scary. He cannot be elected president in this condition and his VP choice is certainly enormous if he won't step away.
I think Bernie played his cards right on this one - endorsing but not really leaving.
Got a feeling it's gonna be him - and while I don't agree with much that comes out of his mouth, you cannot question his mental capacity or intelligence at this age.

[jarmo]

I would say ALL regulations were put in place for a reason. But some are no longer useful.

Obama ended a number of regulations. i'm sure there were some that many would argue were important and provided some protections. there are hundreds of thousands of regs in the US. we could debate them all for the rest of our lives.

But my main point stands. and it seems like you agree. 

I'm all for looking at bureaucracy and removing things that are unnecessary.


But I'm also for a neutral common sense approach that's not fueled by political agenda and arguing against science. For example, if you're a free market believer, you shouldn't remove environmental protection regulations in order to boost the profits of certain companies.

Same thing with public safety. You don't need to make cars less safe to boost profits etc etc etc.




/jarmo

[sandman]

I would say ALL regulations were put in place for a reason. But some are no longer useful.

Obama ended a number of regulations. i'm sure there were some that many would argue were important and provided some protections. there are hundreds of thousands of regs in the US. we could debate them all for the rest of our lives.

But my main point stands. and it seems like you agree. 

I'm all for looking at bureaucracy and removing things that are unnecessary.


But I'm also for a neutral common sense approach that's not fueled by political agenda and arguing against science. For example, if you're a free market believer, you shouldn't remove environmental protection regulations in order to boost the profits of certain companies.

Same thing with public safety. You don't need to make cars less safe to boost profits etc etc etc.




/jarmo

glad  you agree with removing unnecessary regulations.