Al-Qaeda leader Bin Laden 'dead'

[sandman]

some random points...

- a large majority of the people celebrating in front of the White House are totally against the war in Iraq. Americans do not blindly follow everything the country does; quite the opposite actually.

- America has been fighting Al Qaeda non-stop for several years, in some ways even before 9/11. we have made tons of progress against terrorism overall, and have killed/captured several other top leaders.

- America goes to great lengths to limit civilian deaths. its really fuckin insulting to compare america to terrorist organizations.

- don't hold your breath on Bush being tried for war crimes. he is living a very comfortable and happy life. and he is celebrating as much as anyone regarding the news of bin laden's death.

- can we just start a "i hate america" thread? this way topics can stay on point. i read this thread to discuss bin laden being killed, not the US being a terrorist nation.
 

[faldor]

some random points...

- a large majority of the people celebrating in front of the White House are totally against the war in Iraq. Americans do not blindly follow everything the country does; quite the opposite actually.

- America has been fighting Al Qaeda non-stop for several years, in some ways even before 9/11. we have made tons of progress against terrorism overall, and have killed/captured several other top leaders.

- America goes to great lengths to limit civilian deaths. its really fuckin insulting to compare america to terrorist organizations.

- don't hold your breath on Bush being tried for war crimes. he is living a very comfortable and happy life. and he is celebrating as much as anyone regarding the news of bin laden's death.

- can we just start a "i hate america" thread? this way topics can stay on point. i read this thread to discuss bin laden being killed, not the US being a terrorist nation.
 

I suggested the "I hate America" thread on page 1, but nobody took the lead.  Instead we have to read the anti-American BS here.  Give it a rest guys.  That's not what this thread is for.  I strongly suggest you go elsewhere.  Esteban posted plenty of links where you can click on and relish in hating America.  Go there, please.

As for Bush, I've heard this war crimes argument many times before, even from some Americans.  Listen, I'll admit, and most Americans will admit.  The Iraq war was unnecessary and will be viewed as such historically.  But you have to understand that Bush was put in an awful situation.  He was in office when the worst act of terrorism in history was carried out on American soil.  America was shaken, and many Americans were outraged and demanded instant retaliation.  We were led to believe that Iraq was a threat, with the rumored WMD's.  Now, the information that we heard made it seem completely rationale to go to war with Iraq, but it turned out that most of that information just didn't turn out to be true.  I'm of the belief that George W. himself believed the information he was given to be true.  It wasn't, so it was a bad miscalculation.  I don't believe he just went to war for the hell of it, knowing there was no real reason to, just so he could kill a bunch of innocent Iraqi's.

And let's not even begin to compare people killed in WAR, to the people killed on 9/11.  The Iraq war, whether you agree with it or not, it's WAR.  People know going in the risks, and that there's going to be lives lost.  The people that boarded the planes or went to work in the WTC on 9/11 had no way of knowing that they were in any danger.  So please, give it a F'ing rest with these ridiculous comparisons.

Again, start your anti-American thread and Ulises, Esteban, mysteron, and whoever else can go and have a blast with each other there.  I'll stay as far away as possible.  We'll all be better off.  Please, do us all a favor. 

[estebanf]

recomended read here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pamela-gerloff/the-psychology-of-revenge_b_856184.html

[zihuatenajo]

Reminds me of the man who asked me if I spoke any other languages besides English at the Montevideo airport. I told him "Finnish and Swedish!".  

He didn't wanna speak English because it reminded him of the USA and all the innocent people they have killed.

I told him English is from England. That didn't matter, England is bad too.


Ironically he spoke Spanish.

Spain colonized most of South America and did what? Yeah, killed innocent people....


I guess he should learn Finnish...  

 






/jarmo

I have only made it to this post in the thread so far.. but I had to stop to comment : that is priceless!!!

my friend posted this quote on FB last night, food for thought

?Joyfully celebrating the killing of a killer who joyfully celebrated killing carries an irony that I hope will not be lost on us. Are we learning anything, or simply spinning harder in the cycle of violence?? - Brian McLaren

[lynn1961]

10 years, 2 wars, 919,967 deaths & $1,188,263,000,000 later, they managed to kill one person. I hope it was worth it.

I just made this my Facebook status.

Thanks.

I believe this quote was originally from Michael Moore on his Twitter.  Thank him.

[lynn1961]

We are all united. That's clear. Everybody in the world (except the taliban and maybe some other fundamentalist groups) is HAPPY to see Bin Laden dead.

Killing Bin Laden is an important step to stop Al Qaeda. Its not enough, but it was probably the biggest step. Today is a great day in terms of the fight against worldwide terrorism, and we all agree and are united in this.

BUT i wont buy the cheap nationalism some of the american guys here and the ones celebrating in front of the white house profess. I wont buy the story of a ''good side called US'', ''an evil side called Al Qaeda'' and a ''defenseless rest of the world who needs the good-old USA to save their asses''. Thats american bullshit only americans can buy.

Americans bring back memories depending on how useful they are for their arguments. Talking about 9/11 is acceptable. Talking about Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, Iraq, Cuba, etc is not. All these episodes involves HUMAN DEATHS.

And there is no other country in the world who caused more deaths than the USA. Divide history from 1900 to now in decades: USA will be #1 in the ranking in all of them.

Are you serious?  USA is not the "good side" and Al Qaeda the "bad side".  Al Qaeda is responsible for a lot of terrorism around the world, probably the worst of which happened on American soil.  It was bound to happen that someone would eventually bring the alleged leader down.  Could possibly have been any country/leader.  It just so happened it was the US Navy.  That doesn't make the USA the victor here.   I don't feel it was a victory for the USA, but for the entire world.  I'm an American and I don't feel that there is a ''defenseless rest of the world who needs the good-old USA to save their asses''.  I think that's bullshit that, sadly, you think.  And I'm very sorry if people from other countries really feel that way.  That's their own making, not ours.  Just because I'm from America, I don't feel that I'm from a nation that is better than any other.  Not at all.     

Why be bitter about it?     

[Koskenkorvasieni]

Can I just state my opinion? I don't mourn the death of Bin laden, in fact if anything I'm relieved that a dangerous mass murderer won't be able to plot any more attacks against innocent civilians. But at the same time, I really don't feel the need to go out and celebrate his death. I was shocked when I saw people in muslim countries celebrating the death of thousands of civilians after 9/11, but do we really have to lower ourselves to the same barbaric level? If I was an american, I would go to the cemetery and light candles for the civilian victims of 9/11 and the 10 years of war and madness that followed, rather than grab a case of beer in one hand and a flag in the other and go get wasted. That's my two cents. Hope you understand.

[Dead N' Bloated]

I get so sick and fucking tired of the "I hate America" speech. I am an Aussie with absolutely no ties to the US but I find it has become a trend and such a cliche to hate America.
The majority of fuckwits i speak to who hate America have no idea why they hate it, they just do because a bunch of other clueless, bandwagon riding, morons hate America too.
Give it a rest, racist cunts!

Pretty stoked about osama being killed!!!!

[lynn1961]

Can I just state my opinion? I don't mourn the death of Bin laden, in fact if anything I'm relieved that a dangerous mass murderer won't be able to plot any more attacks against innocent civilians. But at the same time, I really don't feel the need to go out and celebrate his death. I was shocked when I saw people in muslim countries celebrating the death of thousands of civilians after 9/11, but do we really have to lower ourselves to the same barbaric level? If I was an american, I would rather go to the cemetery and light candles for the victims, than grab a case of beer in one hand and a flag in the other and go get wasted. That's my two cents. Hope you understand.

Totally right and totally understood. I think it's a small amount of people that are actually celebrating in that way.  Unfortunately, that's what's pictured on the news. Do you really think that is a true representation of every American?  No, it's not.   I think that the majority, even in America, feel the same as you.  It would be strange to celebrate a death, I think, but some people do and that makes news.  I think most, however, feel the same relief as you, and feel a tremendous sadness for all the death that happened 10 yrs ago (and way before that) and has resulted.

I usually agree with much of what Michael Moore says and he has a much better insight into things than what I do, because he takes the time to study and look at things way more so than most of us ever would or could.  Yes, there's been a lot of time, deaths, and money involved, which I don't agree with, either-just because I'm a US citizen doesn't mean I support everything that is done-does anyone really think I or many other Americans like all that?  And one person was brought down (that he claims we trained in terrorism to begin with).  It's all horrible, and I wish the whole world weren't like it is.  But what is any of us going to do about it?  So, we go on and are relieved that the "leader" of all this was brought down.  That's one small step.  No matter what, though, it's not done.    

[eragon]

And there is no other country in the world who caused more deaths than the USA. Divide history from 1900 to now in decades: USA will be #1 in the ranking in all of them.

Divide history from 1800 to now.

Yes, America has been responsible for a lot of deaths, but a lot of them were as a result of being attacked in the first place. 

What was the reason why thousands of Indians (the original population of the U.S) where slaughtered and how do you justify this?

[zihuatenajo]

And there is no other country in the world who caused more deaths than the USA. Divide history from 1900 to now in decades: USA will be #1 in the ranking in all of them.

Divide history from 1800 to now.

Yes, America has been responsible for a lot of deaths, but a lot of them were as a result of being attacked in the first place. 

What was the reason why thousands of Indians (the original population of the U.S) where slaughtered and how do you justify this?

Money and land : plain and simple.


edit : and labour . After too many natives were killed in Central America by the spanish, they would stop in Africa to pick up slaves before coming over.

[Malcolm]

Im still in shock, its been a long time I didnt think theyd get him, so awesome

[faldor]

Can I just state my opinion? I don't mourn the death of Bin laden, in fact if anything I'm relieved that a dangerous mass murderer won't be able to plot any more attacks against innocent civilians. But at the same time, I really don't feel the need to go out and celebrate his death. I was shocked when I saw people in muslim countries celebrating the death of thousands of civilians after 9/11, but do we really have to lower ourselves to the same barbaric level? If I was an american, I would go to the cemetery and light candles for the civilian victims of 9/11 and the 10 years of war and madness that followed, rather than grab a case of beer in one hand and a flag in the other and go get wasted. That's my two cents. Hope you understand.

I've thought about that and I can see your point.  I too was aghast at the sites of people in Afghanistan celebrating the destruction of 9/11. 

HOWEVER, I think these two things are drastically different.  THEY were celebrating the fact that 1000's of people were killed in the most horrific act of terrorism (cowardice) in world history.  They were celebrating an entire country being weakened.  They were burning American flags, etc. 

Americans were celebrating the death of ONE man.  This was not about Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Middle East, Islam.  This was about killing ONE man who orchestrated 9/11 and many other atrocities all across the world over the past few decades.

Surely, you can see the difference.

[sandman]

Can I just state my opinion? I don't mourn the death of Bin laden, in fact if anything I'm relieved that a dangerous mass murderer won't be able to plot any more attacks against innocent civilians. But at the same time, I really don't feel the need to go out and celebrate his death. I was shocked when I saw people in muslim countries celebrating the death of thousands of civilians after 9/11, but do we really have to lower ourselves to the same barbaric level? If I was an american, I would go to the cemetery and light candles for the civilian victims of 9/11 and the 10 years of war and madness that followed, rather than grab a case of beer in one hand and a flag in the other and go get wasted. That's my two cents. Hope you understand.

I've thought about that and I can see your point.  I too was aghast at the sites of people in Afghanistan celebrating the destruction of 9/11. 

HOWEVER, I think these two things are drastically different.  THEY were celebrating the fact that 1000's of people were killed in the most horrific act of terrorism (cowardice) in world history.  They were celebrating an entire country being weakened.  They were burning American flags, etc. 

Americans were celebrating the death of ONE man.  This was not about Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Middle East, Islam.  This was about killing ONE man who orchestrated 9/11 and many other atrocities all across the world over the past few decades.

Surely, you can see the difference.

Exactly! well stated.

there were muslim bastards celebrating here in the U.S.! they were basically celebrating deaths of innocent civilians. the U.S. is celebrating the death of a man many believe to be the most evil in the world. the man who was largely responsible for significant pain and stress inflicted against us. and for almost 10 years we had to see his smug face on TV describing how he will do it again!

so yeah, celebrating his death is slightly different.

and IMO, the same celebrations would have been going on if we had captured him alive. finding him and bringing him to justice has been on the agenda for almost 10 years. the person viewed as the individual most responsible for the horror of 9/11 and potential future horror had to brought to justice. and we finally got him. dead or alive, those celebrations would have taken place. so it wasn't so much that he was dead, rather it was that he was brought to justice.

this is why Obama said bringing him to justice remains a top priority. and he got it done!

[Ulises]

Can I just state my opinion? I don't mourn the death of Bin laden, in fact if anything I'm relieved that a dangerous mass murderer won't be able to plot any more attacks against innocent civilians. But at the same time, I really don't feel the need to go out and celebrate his death. I was shocked when I saw people in muslim countries celebrating the death of thousands of civilians after 9/11, but do we really have to lower ourselves to the same barbaric level? If I was an american, I would go to the cemetery and light candles for the civilian victims of 9/11 and the 10 years of war and madness that followed, rather than grab a case of beer in one hand and a flag in the other and go get wasted. That's my two cents. Hope you understand.

I've thought about that and I can see your point.  I too was aghast at the sites of people in Afghanistan celebrating the destruction of 9/11. 

HOWEVER, I think these two things are drastically different.  THEY were celebrating the fact that 1000's of people were killed in the most horrific act of terrorism (cowardice) in world history.  They were celebrating an entire country being weakened.  They were burning American flags, etc. 

Americans were celebrating the death of ONE man.  This was not about Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Middle East, Islam.  This was about killing ONE man who orchestrated 9/11 and many other atrocities all across the world over the past few decades.

Surely, you can see the difference.

Good math!!!!. I can't believe the justifications i'm reading these days.

[GeorgeSteele]

^ Their point was that celebrating the death of a mass murderer is not the moral equivalent of celebrating the murder of innocent civilians.  You actually disagree with that point?

[faldor]

That makes two of us Ulises. I can't believe the anti-American sentiments being spewed in this thread. Unprovoked, I might add. You guys have made this into a US sucks thread, when that's clearly not what this is about.

And I wasn't trying to give a math lesson with my previous post. I'm afraid you missed the point if that's what you took out of it.

[Koskenkorvasieni]

I'm not saying US sucks, I don't hate America and as I said before I'm relieved that Bin laden can't hurt anyone anymore. I'm just saying that celebrating anyones death just seems wrong to me, that's all. It's like celebrating the excercise of violence rather than the end of it.

That's just my opinion, don't take it personally.

[Loaded NightraiN]

I'm not saying US sucks, I don't hate America and as I said before I'm relieved that Bin laden can't hurt anyone anymore. I'm just saying that celebrating anyones death just seems wrong to me, that's all. It's like celebrating the excercise of violence rather than the end of it.

That's just my opinion, don't take it personally.

Had Bin Laden given up as soon as the troops arrived, there would have been zero bloodshed... The headlines would have read "Bin Laden captured and in US custody"....  The reaction and crowds would have been the same, celebrating the END, and not the violence.... It just turned out Bin Laden forced his hand that night, and got his ass shot

[FunkyMonkey]

This is kind of wild...first on Twitter:

Two Pakistanis provided Twitter followers first accounts of Bin Laden raid

Sohaib Athar and Mohsin Shah were unaware at the time that the unusual helicopter flybys, copter crash and explosion they described in tweets were part of the fatal attack on the Al Qaeda leader.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-bin-laden-tweets-20110503,0,2868654.story

Bin Laden death first reported on Twitter

Keith Urbahn, the former chief of staff for Donald Rumsfeld, the former U.S. defence secretary under President George W. Bush, was the one who leaked one of the biggest news scoops of the century. And the media outlet he used to reveal the news wasn't a respectable news agency or newspaper; it was himself, through Twitter.

http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110502/osama-bin-laden-death-twitter-urbahn-110502/20110502/?hub=CalgaryHome