2009 NFL Season/Off Season discussion

[sandman]

once again Sandman, how could he have ran the ball? He was back at the 40 two Saints were at about the 31.. so yeah, maybe he makes it to the 35.. but Favre saw a wide open Sidney Rice... so a 52 yrd FG for the win? or a 40 yrd FG? Rice slipped, Porter made a great play on the ball.

if he was wide open, the ball would not have been intercepted. Favre himself said he "probably should have ran it."

he made a rookie mistake. that is a play you expect Sanchez to make. and yes, that is the play anyone paying attention for the last several years expects Brett Fraud to make.

this was one of those situations where you expect the greatest of the great to step up and make a play. the Brady's, Montana's, Messier's, Kobe's....they all make a great play in that situation.

could you imagine if this was mcnabb we were talking about??? everyone would be calling him a choke artist. Favre gets a free pass from the media cause they love him to death since he's never turned down an interview in his life.

[sandman]

a friend of a friend wrote a great piece for GQ on Marvin Harrison. he uncovered some facts that hadn't been made public before. it's a very interesting read...

http://www.gq.com/sports/profiles/201002/marvin-harrison

[pilferk]

First off Joe buck is a fucking idiot. Favre in no way had 15 yards of daylight, so please people, stop spouting that bullshit
2nd.. did u guys forget that the man could barely walk off the field? How the hell is he going to run 15 yards?

Go watch the replay of the play AGAIN.  There is NOBODY within at least 10, and it looks more like 12 yards of Favre.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815f3f2b/NFL-GameDay-Vikings-vs-Saints-highlights

11:08 mark of the above video.

Watch the final play on Youtube, a Saint linebacker is parked on the 30 yard line,

He's not parked, he's bumping the receiver (and backing up/back on his heels).  Favre is on the 40-42 at that point.  That's 12 yards.  He needs 5 and has a sideline to play with.  With convergence, it might have been close.  But "close" with a chance to win vs the INT.....really now, D, is there any question which decision you go with?

watching Favre and ready to pursue the first hint of a scramble. Granted Bernard Berrian was open on the sideline at the 30 but he was out of Favre's line of sight and Sidney Rice has been Favre's go to guy all season. I think they should've ran a screen pass personally.

The play call wasn't ideal, I agree.  His decision within the play was worse.  YOU DON"T THROW OPPOSITE FIELD ACROSS YOUR BODY.  He had two better options out there (and I disagree that Berrian was out of his line of site.  He might not have been LOOKING at him, but he was definitely "seeable".  That's him RIGHT at the 30, wide open...right?  If Favre is looking to run, or if his focus was (correctly) on that side of the field...you can't MISS him (both in terms of seeing him and throwing to him).  At the WORST, he's a token blocker who can open up a bit more room for Favre.

I hear people talking about Favre's pick like it was a damn pick 6 or something....... Lets say Favre throws an incomplete pass there.. They aren't trying a 55 yard FG cause if they miss, NO would have time to complete one pass and kick a game winning FG, so chances are, it goes to OT anyway.

One chance to win vs an INT?  And you really think they don't take their shot?  Better a chance to win than no chane at all.

If Peterson doesn't close his arms too early they have a TD.. If Harvin doesn't fumble, NO don't score an easy TD, if Berrian Doesn't fumble, Minnesota get an easy TD
that is 3tds off the board that were not Favre's fault.

No, the turnovers were definitely a contributor to why they weren't ahead at the end of regulation.

But ULTIMATELY, the 2 plays that decide that end of regulation are the 12 men on the field penalty (which KILLED THEM) and Favre's very bad decision making process.  You can defend Favre all you want, but look back at his Post season history.  He does this kind of thing, in big spots, a LOT.  Once?  Maybe you give the guy the benefit of the doubt.  But time and time again?  No way man...you lay blame squarely where it belongs.

I give credit to his toughness.  He took some SHOTS and kept getting back up.  But, when the game hung in the balance...he made the WRONG call.  Wrong by a LOT.

Also, don't forget that 1st and 10 on the 33, if Adrian Peterson and his overrated ass can gain any yardage on 1st and 2nd down, Favre isn't in that position to pass anyway, not to mention the 12 men in the huddle penalty.

so blame Favre all u want, it just isn't fair or right to do so. He gets some blame don't get me wrong, but not this BS.

He's not entirely to blame.  The turnovers and mental mistakes were a good chunk, and given the stats, it likely should NEVER have come down to a few plays at the end of regulation.  But...it did.  And the Vikings said, time and time again, the reason they brought Favre into their organization was to lead them through just this type of game.  He didn't do it.

He bears some of the blame, and ALL the blame for the way that last play shook out.  He took away their chance to win.  You can't really argue that.   He makes a better choice and they get a chance to kick, with a guy who has a monster leg, with about 10-15 seconds on the clock.  Is it 100%? No.  But it's better than 0%!!

[pilferk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smhiIIekc8g&NR=1


Pause at 1:30 and tell me where Favre had 15yrds of daylight.

No, he has 10 to 12.  Favre is on the 40 to 42.  The Saints defender is around the 30....and Berrian is off to the defender's left, completely open.

[pilferk]

I agree Favre doesn't deserve blame for the loss, but you can't deny how awful a pass that was that he made.  And it's one he's made throughout his entire career.  Before the game in his interview with Pam Oliver she asked him what the difference was this season and why he had his best statistical season.  He replied that he's learned a thing or two over the years and has gotten smarter.  That play nullified that statement as it was the same STUPID pass he's tried to make his entire career.  He never learned that it's not a smart throw to make.

He isn't 100% to blame for the loss.

He is 100% to blame for the fact they didn't have a chance to win, at the end of regulation/as the clock expired. 

There's a difference, yes.  But to give him a pass is just as ridiculous as holding him 100% responsible.  He wasn't dropping the ball to the carpet continuously.

Point of reference:  Brett Favre is now the leader in post season interceptions.  Yes, part of that is longevity.  But not all of it.

[pilferk]

I agreed till I watched replays

watch it again real real close

sidney is OPEN but when he goes to get the football, he slips allowing the NO defender to go in front and pick it.

watch what I posted above.

I have.  Slipped or not...as a QB you don't make that pass.  Ever.  There's too many chances for an INT, because there's too many defenders between you and your target...and the manner in which you have to throw across your body is going to mean the ball is an easy grab.   Again, the analogy is like you don't throw the pass across the key in basketball.  It's bad fundamentals, and it's something Favre does over and over again, no matter how many times it burns him (and it burns him a lot).  Again, if it was a one time thing, maybe you give the guy a pass.  But this is an ongoing flaw that he refuses to rectify. 

[pilferk]

My point is, people are acting like that INT lost the game and in reality it didnt

It didn't lose the game.

It took away their chance, at that point, to win in regulation.

A big difference.

You can argue that, given the stats, that they should have had a bigger lead by that point...I'd agree.  But the fact is, they didn't.  So you blame the rest of the team for them not being ahead, up to that point.

But you blame Favre for making the bad decision that led to them NOT being able to take a shot.

Favre had Berrian open at the 30 but lets be honest, he was out of Favre's peripheral vision... and at that point, he has to throw the ball. Rice was open when it left his hand.

Because he was looking cross field...which he shouldn't have been doing.  He's looking up the sidelines (which is what he SHOULD have been doing on a roll out) and he sees him, easily. 

Rice was open, but in a position that, as a QB, you don't throw to. 

He didn't have to throw.  He could have run the sideline....

If Favre gets sacked, throws an incomplete pass or tries to run.. Minnesota still have to attempt a super long FG which i doubt they'd make anyway

He was just about at the line of scrimmage when he let the ball go, so he wasn't going to lose yards.  An incomplete pass would be bad, but you have a shot at a kick.  He runs, they pick up 2-3-4-5 yards (anything closer is better) and they increase their chances to get that kick in.

You can doubt they make it...but then you should look at their kickers stats.  He's made em before...and they're in a dome, for cripes sake.  The ball will SAIL.  So even if they only had a 30% or 40% chance to win (and that's super conservative, given the conditions and kicker's history)....that chance is better than 0%, no?

people seriously are acting like Favre threw a pick 6

A chance vs no chance.  'nuff said.

Minnesota had ample tries in OT to stop NO on third down.. that pass interference call was criminal.

No one's blaming him for the OT result...he didn't play.  And I mentioned my beef with the reviewed calls in an earlier post.

The point is:  Favre had an opporunity to give the Saints the chance to avoid OT altogether at the end of regulation.    He blew it.  Nobody else...him.

I said on Twitter and Skip borrowed it from me today on First and Ten.. FG's should be outlawed in the playoffs in OT. make the team score a TD.

I'm 100% on board with a "first to 6" rule in playoff OT.  Either 1 TD or 2 FG's.   Get the league to buy in!!

[pilferk]

Favre got the credit on the fumble but peterson clearly muffed the handoff. Harvin fumblng and Berrian fumbling were just horrible plays

That's the rule...but I agree with you.  AP not being able to form a freaking BREAD BASKET on the handoff is completely unacceptable.

on another drive NO scored on, the defensive back Johnson had a pick bounce right into his hands and he dropped it. Minnesota had one of their best CB's get hurt on Special Teams........... 12 men in the huddle

fuck, i am gonna blame Brad Childress and the coaching staff for a lot of that.

The play calling when they got to 1st and 10 on the 33..... they went completely conservative. Had NO on the ropes.

Turnovers, mental mistakes, and some coaching mistakes were all contributors.  But even with all that, they were in a spot where they could have won.

[pilferk]

wrong. dead wrong. he didn't have to throw the ball. he should never have thrown that ball. even he said that.

BINGO!!!!  And as you said, even FAVRE said he should have run, not thrown.  At least not to him.

He could have thrown to Berrian.  The only way you allow the "excuse" that he was out of Favre's line of site is if allow the fact that he should have been looking cross-field.  And he shouldn't have.

he would have picked up AT LEAST 2 yards with a slide. he would have picked up AT LEAST 4 yards with some effort (running hard and diving). if he picks up 2 yards, the clock is still running, they call TO with 1 second left, and they have a 52 yard FG try. indoors. with a great K.

And Berrian, whether Favre looked his way or not, was there as a blocker.  You had ONE defender, roughly at the same yardage, and within "catchable" distance of him.  Berrian could have played the role of blocker to get Favre an extra couple yards toward the sideline.

the saints deserve some credit. they got to farve and beat him up pretty well and him being tired was a factor at the end. also, they forced some of those fumbles, and a couple times this year Peter King has stated how the saints work on creating turnovers more than any other team in the league. one of the few teams to practice stripping the ball and picking up loose balls even during non-contact drills. berrian had that ball punched right out of his hands.

Other than the pressure on Favre (and that's a big "other than"), I thought the Saints did not play all that well, for the most part.  I thought the Vikings deserved to win that game, which is why I'm so ticked off that they didn't.  I HATE that!

[pilferk]

once again Sandman, how could he have ran the ball? He was back at the 40 two Saints were at about the 31.. so yeah, maybe he makes it to the 35.. but Favre saw a wide open Sidney Rice... so a 52 yrd FG for the win? or a 40 yrd FG? Rice slipped, Porter made a great play on the ball.

There was one Saint at the 30...the other was briefly there but was in coverage and heading down field (with his back to the play). Reversing direction to be part of the play would have been tough  You also had Berrian there to block.  And you run because to pass to Rice you have to do the thing YOU DO NOT DO AS A QB.  Something likely to reduce your chance to take the shot to win the game to 0%.

It's risk/reward.  The risk you take to get that 40 yard FG attempts was a heck of a lot more than the one for the 52 yard FG attempt.  You make the play that give you the 52 yard FG attempt and there is a 90% chance you get to take that shot to win the game.  Trying to get in position to take the 40 yard FG attempt?  Maybe a 40-50% chance you get to take that shot...maybe less than that.

You're wrong, D.  Ask any football coach, college level and up.  They would want the QB to run the ball, or drop the short pass to Berrian on the sideline.  NO Coach is going to say they want their QB to try to hit a guy by throwing across his body, cross-field.   As a fan, you might think it's OK to take that shot.  It's not.  It's bad fundamental football.

[gilee7]

could you imagine if this was mcnabb we were talking about??? everyone would be calling him a choke artist. Favre gets a free pass from the media cause they love him to death since he's never turned down an interview in his life.

Exactly! And that's why I've always disliked Favre because he has always gotten a free pass. When somebody like Jay Cutler throws 3 or 4 terrible INTs in a game, people destroy him. When Favre does it, well, that's just Favre being Favre, just being a gunslinger, that's why we love him, yadda, yadda yadda . . . Favre has made hundreds of throws in his career that would've gotten any other QB benched.

[GeorgeSteele]

could you imagine if this was mcnabb we were talking about??? everyone would be calling him a choke artist. Favre gets a free pass from the media cause they love him to death since he's never turned down an interview in his life.

Exactly! And that's why I've always disliked Favre because he has always gotten a free pass. When somebody like Jay Cutler throws 3 or 4 terrible INTs in a game, people destroy him. When Favre does it, well, that's just Favre being Favre, just being a gunslinger, that's why we love him, yadda, yadda yadda . . . Favre has made hundreds of throws in his career that would've gotten any other QB benched.

But he's having FUN out there!

Seriously, I get it, the Favre love can be annoying, but otherwise the different standards are completely appropriate.  McNabb, and certainly not Cutler, do not have a "great plays" bank that stacks up against the one Favre has built up over his career.  If a friend of yours disappoints you one way or the other, it matters how good of friend that person has been to you over the years.  Yes, I know people will say that Favre has committed those kinds of brain farts his entire career, but he's also over his entire career passed for more yards and TDs than anyone in history, has had his teams in the playoffs almost every year of his career, won 3 straight MVPs, and has won a Super Bowl. 

In Dan Marino's final game, he put up a stink bomb of epic proportions in a 62-7 playoff loss.  He wasn't hammered by the media either and they were right not to.

[D]

once again Sandman, how could he have ran the ball? He was back at the 40 two Saints were at about the 31.. so yeah, maybe he makes it to the 35.. but Favre saw a wide open Sidney Rice... so a 52 yrd FG for the win? or a 40 yrd FG? Rice slipped, Porter made a great play on the ball.

if he was wide open, the ball would not have been intercepted. Favre himself said he "probably should have ran it."

he made a rookie mistake. that is a play you expect Sanchez to make. and yes, that is the play anyone paying attention for the last several years expects Brett Fraud to make.

this was one of those situations where you expect the greatest of the great to step up and make a play. the Brady's, Montana's, Messier's, Kobe's....they all make a great play in that situation.

could you imagine if this was mcnabb we were talking about??? everyone would be calling him a choke artist. Favre gets a free pass from the media cause they love him to death since he's never turned down an interview in his life.

Bret Favre never puked in a huddle

[D]

could you imagine if this was mcnabb we were talking about??? everyone would be calling him a choke artist. Favre gets a free pass from the media cause they love him to death since he's never turned down an interview in his life.

Exactly! And that's why I've always disliked Favre because he has always gotten a free pass. When somebody like Jay Cutler throws 3 or 4 terrible INTs in a game, people destroy him. When Favre does it, well, that's just Favre being Favre, just being a gunslinger, that's why we love him, yadda, yadda yadda . . . Favre has made hundreds of throws in his career that would've gotten any other QB benched.

C'mon dude, u guys aren't noobs but u sound like it with shit like this

Favre 3 MVP's one SB, brought back one of the original franchises to greatness and was an athlete u seriously didn't think was some arrogant stuck up prick doing it all for the cash

Jay Cutler is overrated, has never even been to the playoffs

Please refrain from comparisons like this

Also, name ONE Hall Of Fame offensive player Favre has ever had on his team.. U give Favre Jerry Rice or Randy Moss and see what he would've done.

[D]

U could compare Favre to Axl Rose

what makes them great also can be their biggest flaw.

[D]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smhiIIekc8g&NR=1


Pause at 1:30 and tell me where Favre had 15yrds of daylight.

No, he has 10 to 12.  Favre is on the 40 to 42.  The Saints defender is around the 30....and Berrian is off to the defender's left, completely open.

Favre is about the 40 or 42, defenders are on the 30 but those defenders run a hell of a lot faster than Favre, especially on a bum ankle. with their pursuit, he may gain a yard or 2 and I agree, a FG try is better than no try.. Im not trying to exonerate Favre's mistake.. just saying, he didn't lose the game all by himself as a lot of people kind of suggest. *not just people on here.. just in general.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Tails never fails.

That pissed me off too.  He goes on and calls heads.  (I know it's a 50/50 thing, but I'm a pessimistic, superstitious fellar.)

It was as if every force in the universe was against the Vikings when they got down to the 30.

This is one of those "Epic Fails" internet pplz like to talk about.  This is the ball going through Buckner's legs, this is Chris Webber calling timeout.

I'm liable to lay the blame on Brad Childress for his horrible play-calling at the end of regulation.  Throw short passes, run some screen plays, run up the middle!  You have complete control of the clock, you can call timeout anytime.  And the Saints were out of timeouts if I recall correctly.  I haven't watched any sports programming since the FG, and I have avoided all conversations about this subject on "the outside."

[gilee7]

U could compare Favre to Axl Rose

Please don't.

[AxlsMainMan]

Well, I'd rather he do that than some guy whose claim to fame is an endorsement deal for soup.

[gilee7]

Well, I'd rather he do that than some guy whose claim to fame is an endorsement deal for soup.

It ever occur to you that to get an endorsement off the field you have to be pretty damn good on the field? Mcnabb's play is his "claim to fame," not a fucking Chunky's soup commercial.

Give me McNabb over Favre any day. McNabb has been a better QB than Favre this decade. This ain't the 1990's anymore.

McNabb has the second greatest TD:INT ratio of all time just behind Tom Brady. He's the least intercepted QB per pass attempt of all time. He's one of only six QBs to have over 25,000 passing yards and 3,000 rushing yard (alongside Cunningham, Elway, Young, McNair and Tarkenton).  He has the third best winning percentage among active QBs (Peyton and Brady being one and two). This means McNabb has won more games this decade than Favre. He's been to the playoffs more times this decade than Favre. When they met in the playoffs a few years ago, McNabb got the better of him, with one of his most memorable plays: the 4th and 26, while Favre was Favre, throwing away the game in OT. McNabb has a slightly better all-time QB rating.

People act like Favre won 3 or 4 rings. He won one. He went to two. McNabb's only been to one and he lost it. But he'll win at least one before he retires, so he'll match Favre on that too. And if McNabb's stats are already so great, imagine if he had stayed healthy all this time, like Favre was always able to.

If Favre played in Philly, and did his usual 25+ INT style of play, singlehandely losing big games because of idiotic, dumbass throws, he would have been murdered. They would have never tolerated it like Green Bay did.