US poverty: chronic ill, little hope for cure

[SLCPUNK]

That is all I ever hear from the right is how we (which is false) give more help than any other country in the world.

Who gives more aid to the poor in this world than the US?  I'd like to see the numbers.  You may be right, but I'd still like to see the numbers.

Look it up yourself. The only thing that will happen if I look it up and post it: is you ignoring it and asking me to post it again.....

You always ask for people to post facts.  You ask over and over again in this forum like a broken record.  But when some here asks you to give facts, you have this answer.  You must be wrong if you don't want to look it up.  I may be wrong myself, but I highly doubt any other country gives more aid to the poor in this world than the US. 

I'm shocked that an American could wear his hatred of the US on his sleeve like you.  If you had any nuts at all, any balls whatsoever, you'd leave and go live in France or one of these other countries that you defend when you won't defend a single thing about the US.  Why is it you don't live by the principals you spout here?  Only two reasons exist.  One, you are a coward or two, you don't believe half the shit you say.  I'm willing to be its a bit of both.

This reminds me of another thread when you asked me over and over to post what I had said.

Once again, I have posted the stats on this forum, and it is still on the internet.

And once again you are free to search. (But FYI Official Development Assistance based on GNP showed USA in 22cd for 2004 hardly what was agreed to when joining.)

I present facts, you ignore them, then ask again.

I don't have hatred for Americans. I just don't like false claims made by people about America, such as yourself. If I don't like W's war, deficit and lies then I should go live in France? Wow, an American statement if I ever heard one....

What principles do I not live buy that I "spout here"? Please explain

[Charity Case]

Oh so you showed a list of countries' contributions based on GNP.  I asked you for a true list, not a list skewed to show how bad the US.  Funny how there are two options here.  One options shows that the US contributes more dollars than any other country in the world (probably by a ton).  The second option is to show a list of contributions by GNP which, according to you, shows us at #22.  And which option does slc choose to show?  Of course he chooses the option that shows the US in the poorest light possible.  You are about as anti-American as possible man.  I said it before, grow a pair go live overseas if the US sucks so bad.  I've yet to see you say one positive thing about the US on this board.  I could understand if you were talking about someplace else, but the US is by far the greatest place on this planet tolive.  Yesterday, now and tomorrow.  You wouldn't know it to listen to you though.

The fact is that we contribute more dollars to human suffering causing than any other country in the world.  Fact is we contribute more than dollars.  We captured Milosevic and ended genocide single handedly (basically) without lose of American lives.  We stopped Hussein from taking Kuwait.  These are contributions to the poorer countries that you don't find in lists by GNP.  All other things aside, we contribute the most per country.

[POPmetal]

I'm shocked that an American could wear his hatred of the US on his sleeve like you.? If you had any nuts at all, any balls whatsoever, you'd leave and go live in France or one of these other countries that you defend when you won't defend a single thing about the US.? Why is it you don't live by the principals you spout here?? Only two reasons exist.? One, you are a coward or two, you don't believe half the shit you say.? I'm willing to be its a bit of both.

That's an insult to France! This guy is so off the chart left-wing and anti-American that he should move to North Korea.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

I'm shocked that an American could wear his hatred of the US on his sleeve like you.? If you had any nuts at all, any balls whatsoever, you'd leave and go live in France or one of these other countries that you defend when you won't defend a single thing about the US.? Why is it you don't live by the principals you spout here?? Only two reasons exist.? One, you are a coward or two, you don't believe half the shit you say.? I'm willing to be its a bit of both.

That's an insult to France! This guy is so off the chart left-wing and anti-American that he should move to North Korea.

North Korea or Iran. Both would love his ideology.

[Surfrider]

I'm shocked that an American could wear his hatred of the US on his sleeve like you.? If you had any nuts at all, any balls whatsoever, you'd leave and go live in France or one of these other countries that you defend when you won't defend a single thing about the US.? Why is it you don't live by the principals you spout here?? Only two reasons exist.? One, you are a coward or two, you don't believe half the shit you say.? I'm willing to be its a bit of both.

That's an insult to France! This guy is so off the chart left-wing and anti-American that he should move to North Korea.

North Korea or Iran. Both would love his ideology.

I am not sure about Iran.  They don't treat muslims and terrorists as well as SLC wants them to be treated.





Disclaimer: I am only kidding SLC.  I actually think many of your criticisms are supported pretty well. 

[Sterlingdog]

I know alot of poor people, its part of my job.  Of course some are lazy, but some truly don't know how to change their lives.  I hire people at 7.00 an hour to do a difficult job, that educated people probably wouldn't do no matter how much it pays.  My staff live in the ghetto.  Those that drive, don't leave the local area.  Others take the bus and they also stay local.  They live an incredibly isolated life, if there are opportunities for them, they don't know what they are.  They feel defeated anyway, with no hope for a different life.  I've heard before that the number one common factor among teenage mothers is that they have no hope for a future.   They don't expect to go to college, so why not just get knocked up and live on welfare?  Its all they know, and the circle continues through generations.  So how do we help these people?  A sociologist would say we don't, because we need the poor to operate as a society.   

I don't know what the answer is, but I do believe its a culture thing.  Not racial, but cultural.  I can see the difference among my staff.  All with the same education level, all at the same pay.  Some work their butts off trying to earn extra to put their kids through school.  Others just accept the way things are and do nothing; they just don't see any point to it.  They don't expect to ever get anywhere.  Its what they have been told their whole lives, don't bother...you are stuck in this life, at this level.  Want to know the difference between those who dream of a different life, and those who don't?  Those who think they can change things aren't american.  And to me that's sad. 

[SLCPUNK]

I'm shocked that an American could wear his hatred of the US on his sleeve like you.  If you had any nuts at all, any balls whatsoever, you'd leave and go live in France or one of these other countries that you defend when you won't defend a single thing about the US.  Why is it you don't live by the principals you spout here?  Only two reasons exist.  One, you are a coward or two, you don't believe half the shit you say.  I'm willing to be its a bit of both.

That's an insult to France! This guy is so off the chart left-wing and anti-American that he should move to North Korea.

North Korea or Iran. Both would love his ideology.

LOL, what's that?

Tell the truth, and don't murder people around the world?

[SLCPUNK]

Oh so you showed a list of countries' contributions based on GNP.  I asked you for a true list, not a list skewed to show how bad the US.

The amount given (I've told you this before) is based on GNP. That is how it works, all wealthy nations are expected (and agreed) to give based on this amount.

Go read, learn something, please.....

[SLCPUNK]

I'm shocked that an American could wear his hatred of the US on his sleeve like you.  If you had any nuts at all, any balls whatsoever, you'd leave and go live in France or one of these other countries that you defend when you won't defend a single thing about the US.  Why is it you don't live by the principals you spout here?  Only two reasons exist.  One, you are a coward or two, you don't believe half the shit you say.  I'm willing to be its a bit of both.

That's an insult to France! This guy is so off the chart left-wing and anti-American that he should move to North Korea.

North Korea or Iran. Both would love his ideology.

Disclaimer: I am only kidding SLC.  I actually think many of your criticisms are supported pretty well. 

That is ok, you know I have a pretty good sense of humor Nightrain....

[Rain]

You know what I notice in my neck of the woods.? How come sometimes when I go to the supermarket there is someone in front of me who is on food stamps and she weighs 250 lbs and her kids look like they haven't eaten in weeks?? Then she proceeds to swear at her starving kids, buy cigarettes and beer with cash and then buy potato chips and cookies with food stamps.? This is not a sterotype.? This is what I actually often see when I go to the grocery store.? I'm sure most Americans see this from time to time.? I'm not sure how you can be poor and 250 pounds.? Those things always seemed to be in conflict with one another.

Also, about some that fall into the "poor" category.? I don't want a dime of my tax money going to support a women who has a kid that she can't afford to have in the first place.? If you are poor and can't afford a child, then don't have them.? It's pretty easy to not get pregnant and cost me money.? This is one of my biggest pet-peeves.? I don't think we should financially support people who could avoid this in the first place.? I know liberals will disagree , but giving my money to someone like this is absurd.

slc, someone finally gave you some 'facts' that so often ask for and you didn't like it.? Your rant was the funniest thing I've seen in a while.? Fox News isn't good enough for you but the NY Times is.? LOL? ??

Wow that's nice if you are poor in Walk's universe you're denied the right to procreate !

And to your information - in all industrialized countries - The poors tend to be fatter than the average person - If you eat junk food all the time that what's happen ... see ? It's the same here in France - in the north , a region where unemployement rate is high is where you find the more % of obese people...

And people who tend to compare oranges to apples I tend to agree w/ SLC. The poverty line is calculated more or less the same way in most industrialized countries - so don't compare africa poverty line to the one in the USA.
And the TV thing is hilarious - In brazil every home has a fuckin TV even in the favelas in Rio everybody has a TV set ... does that make them rich ? I guess not.

[Walk]

TV is still a luxury. It sucks power just like any other appliance. It's expensive to buy initially and it costs power in the long run. It also advertises consumer products for the weak minded to buy, and this keeps them poor. It takes time away from studying or working. It doesn't do anything useful. It's luxury. Processed junk food is also a luxury. If one can afford ANY luxury, no matter what it is, one is not poor. The poor are those who can't afford necessities. Food, shelter, and clothing are necessities.

The poor should definitely never have children. My definition of poor, of course, is those who cannot afford necessities. They can't clothe or feed their children. They shouldn't have children if they can't take care of them. It's cruel to have children one can't care for. I won't budge on this issue.

Now, the issue is more complex for those who can afford the basics for children. If they can't afford private school, children might not be worth it. Most public schools are terrible and produce mediocrity. If they can't afford to help their children's talent by buying them a musical instrument or some paint and paper, children might not be worth it. If both parents would have to work 12 hours a day to have children, it might not be worth it. This is a grey area.

Children are more expensive than most people think. It's best to wait until one has assets before having children. Imagine if both parents are killed in a car accident or one has a heart attack and has to stop working. Hopefully, they have some bonds and life insurance to take care of their children. Wealth helps prepare the children for unexpected events like this. The less wealthy depend on luck for their children, and this isn't appropriate in the 21st century. We should know better.

[Rain]

Ok I'm going to try once again.
In here we are not discussing on your definition of the word "poor" but on the "poverty line" in the United States.

Poverty line : "The poverty line is the level of income below which one cannot afford to purchase all the resources one requires to live. People who have an income below the poverty line have no discretionary disposable income, by definition.

Determining the poverty line is often done by considering the essential resources that an average human adult consumes in one year and then summing their cost. This approach is needs-based in that an assessment is made of the minimum expenditure needed to maintain a tolerable life. This was the original basis of the poverty line in the United States, which has since been uprated for price changes. In developing countries, the largest of these resources is typically the rent required to live in an apartment, so historically, economists have paid particular attention to the real estate market and housing prices as having a strong influence on the poverty line."


Hope that helps !

[lynn1961]

So what Walk is saying is that only wealthy people should have children?  Did I understand that right?  Only have children if you can afford to put them in a private school and buy them expensive musical instruments.

Wealth helps prepare the children for unexpected events like this. The less wealthy depend on luck for their children, and this isn't appropriate in the 21st century. We should know better.

 

[Charity Case]

I can't speak for Walk, but from my point of view, if you can't afford to have a kid, if having a kid will cost taxpayers money to support it because you can't support iton your own, then you shouldn't have kids.  Period.  I don't want a cent of my tax money to go to support someone so stupid as to have a child that they can't afford to have in the first place.  I mean I don't make stupid decisions that cost other tax payers money.  Why should anyone else?  I'm sorry if that is hard for some bleeding hearts to hear, but it makes perfect sense to not enable the stupid.

[Rain]

I can't speak for Walk, but from my point of view, if you can't afford to have a kid, if having a kid will cost taxpayers money to support it because you can't support iton your own, then you shouldn't have kids.? Period.? I don't want a cent of my tax money to go to support someone so stupid as to have a child that they can't afford to have in the first place.? I mean I don't make stupid decisions that cost other tax payers money.? Why should anyone else?? I'm sorry if that is hard for some bleeding hearts to hear, but it makes perfect sense to not enable the stupid.

In your perfect world I guess American birth rate would be low, very low ... You won't pay a lot of taxes but there won't be many of you left ! Who will fight your wars ? Who will clean your homes ? 

[Sterlingdog]

I can't speak for Walk, but from my point of view, if you can't afford to have a kid, if having a kid will cost taxpayers money to support it because you can't support iton your own, then you shouldn't have kids.? Period.? I don't want a cent of my tax money to go to support someone so stupid as to have a child that they can't afford to have in the first place.? I mean I don't make stupid decisions that cost other tax payers money.? Why should anyone else?? I'm sorry if that is hard for some bleeding hearts to hear, but it makes perfect sense to not enable the stupid.

Ok, I understand being angry at people who pump out kids they can't afford.  I get it, really I do.  But what do you propose we do about it?  The kids are already here, its not their fault.  They need an education and food and shelter.  Someone has to pay for it.

As for the poor people who haven't had kids yet, what about them?  Forced sterlization or abortion?  In America?

[Guns N RockMusic]

I can't speak for Walk, but from my point of view, if you can't afford to have a kid, if having a kid will cost taxpayers money to support it because you can't support iton your own, then you shouldn't have kids.? Period.? I don't want a cent of my tax money to go to support someone so stupid as to have a child that they can't afford to have in the first place.? I mean I don't make stupid decisions that cost other tax payers money.? Why should anyone else?? I'm sorry if that is hard for some bleeding hearts to hear, but it makes perfect sense to not enable the stupid.

In your perfect world I guess American birth rate would be low, very low ... You won't pay a lot of taxes but there won't be many of you left ! Who will fight your wars ? Who will clean your homes ??

there's always the mexicans.


Disclaimer: ?This is response to sterotypes that only the poor fight and die. ?I'm just adding another sterotype that the mexicans do all the hard labor in this country (which there is some basis too). ?No racism or bigotry is implied.

[Rain]

I can't speak for Walk, but from my point of view, if you can't afford to have a kid, if having a kid will cost taxpayers money to support it because you can't support iton your own, then you shouldn't have kids.? Period.? I don't want a cent of my tax money to go to support someone so stupid as to have a child that they can't afford to have in the first place.? I mean I don't make stupid decisions that cost other tax payers money.? Why should anyone else?? I'm sorry if that is hard for some bleeding hearts to hear, but it makes perfect sense to not enable the stupid.

In your perfect world I guess American birth rate would be low, very low ... You won't pay a lot of taxes but there won't be many of you left ! Who will fight your wars ? Who will clean your homes ??

there's always the mexicans.


Disclaimer: ?This is response to sterotypes that only the poor fight and die. ?I'm just adding another sterotype that the mexicans do all the hard labor in this country (which there is some basis too). ?No racism or bigotry is implied.

If you haven't caught the irony I can do nothing for you !

And I guess Charity Case won't be pleased to pay for the Mexican children either !

[lynn1961]

I think I might understand where Charity Case is coming from on this one - maybe. ?I mean I have trouble having any real empathy for women who are very poor to begin with and have baby after baby, starting at a very young age and with different men, and then live off the system. ?That bothers me, but many of them might be raised in an environment where they don't know any other way of life. ?I'm not making an excuse for them, but people do get stuck in a way of life, that perpetuates itself from one generation to the next. ?That doesn't make them stupid. ?

However, what I'm hearing is that if you don't have money, and a lot of money, you shouldn't have children. ?I agree, you need to have some means of providing food and shelter. ?But private schools & music lessons aren't the basis of what raising kids is all about. ?You can be poor and have a lot of love for those kids and raise them well. ?

What about people who have some wealth, have children, and then lose everything for whatever reason? ?Should they be allowed to continue to raise their children because they couldn't provide the same standards as before? ?What about the millions of people in our country that live on that $8.00 I talked about before, who have no choice because that's what's available? ?Should they not be allowed to have children either? ? ?

We don't live in this perfect, little world here. ?This is reality - what real people live through every day. ?

[lynn1961]

Ok, I understand being angry at people who pump out kids they can't afford.? I get it, really I do.? But what do you propose we do about it?? The kids are already here, its not their fault.? They need an education and food and shelter.? Someone has to pay for it.

Very good point.