Death penalty, Abortion, Gun Control, War in Iraq-give your 2 cents

[Eazy E]

Could some of you pro-lifers put your money where your mouth is and start adopting the children once abortion is illegal again?

What are you crazy? 

They'll all be too busy signing up for the military to go fight for good causes overseas..... 

[SLCPUNK]

Could some of you pro-lifers put your money where your mouth is and start adopting the children once abortion is illegal again?

What are you crazy??

They'll all be too busy signing up for the military to go fight for good causes overseas.....?

haha, yea they all seem to ask so much from EVERYBODY ELSE, but when it comes time to suit up, they all have an excuse not to step up to the plate.

War  = Good, but I'm going to school, and will serve my country in "other ways" (mostly by being critical of anti-war posters on the internet).

Abortion = bad, although I can't adopt kids and give them a good life, because I've got other things going on to serve my community (those women should have kept their legs closed to begin with).

[Will]

Abortion will not be outlawed anytime soon...a few fanatics won't change a law (I'm not talking about people on the board, but those who kill doctors who practice abortion and such). I'm confident in this. I'm more concerned about the "War in Iraq" and the many domestic issues no one likes to talk about.

[SLCPUNK]

Abortion will not be outlawed anytime soon...a few fanatics won't change a law (I'm not talking about people on the board, but those who kill doctors who practice abortion and such). I'm confident in this. I'm more concerned about the "War in Iraq" and the many domestic issues no one likes to talk about.

I don't think abortion will become illegal, I said it being hypothetical. But my question still remains. How many pro-lifers will step up and adopt children if it would reduce the number of abortions? Any takers? Have the money, time and selflessness to raise a child? Answer = (insert blame here and other excuses)

(Most of these clowns on here aren't in the real world yet, facing real issues. They sit behind a computer and tell everybody to educate themselves etc etc. Wait til they get screwed by their HMO, their brother dies in the war, their job goes overseas, work more to earn less, social security is gone and they have to play with the crooks on wallstreet.....etc etc...Nobody gives a damn until they are getting screwed, then they call for a change. Look at Nancy Reagan and the stem cell debate. All of a sudden when old Ronald was part of the diaper patrol, she condoned stem cell research.)

[Will]

And they're calling us left wing nuts while flipping to Fake News...

[SLCPUNK]

And they're calling us left wing nuts while flipping to Fake News...

I guess it's irony that makes the world go round.....

[Izzy]

Because criminals cant buy guns.?

Okay....

There are laws against criminals buying guns.

Tell me more!

It is a fact that most guns used in crimes were purchased illegally.?

But wait! U just said criminals can't buy guns...... Also, maybe these ''criminals'' bought the guns before they were convicted - or had the gun bought for them. Your whole point is deranged.

Only the army should have access to guns. No one needs one. Guns and civilians don't mix. The thought that u own a gun is truly horrifying. If i was a poor immigrant i would be shit scared.

Many European countries have immigration, but not like the US, where it is poor, poor people coming from a neighboring country.? These people move to the inner-cities, are not educated and end up joining gangs and committing crimes.? There are very few European countries that have immigration from poor countries in such high numbers.

Well another poster already showed u to be speaking out of ur arse here.

U are nothing more than a biggot. ''Immigrants are all criminals'' - ur the sterotypical red-neck. U should be ashamed of yourself. Immigrants are predominatly people just seeking a a better life, who are educated and respectable people - ur views sicken me.

It shouldnt baffle you.? There is a direct correlation between immigration from poor nations and crime.? People use comparisons with the crime rate in the US to show that it is all because of guns.? Sure some of it could be becaues of guns, but not many countries get the inner city ghettos that we get from letting such large numbers of poor immigrants into our country.? So any direct comparison with crime rate is skewed.? You get the connection now?

So crime all due to Mexican immigrants - well u solved that mystery! Let's just shoot them all then?

So u need guns to fight back against these 'evil' invaders? Fuck's sake - no wonder Bush got re-elected with ignorant people like u about.

I have no problem with immigrants.

?

U don't...well what about this quote then?

These people move to the inner-cities, are not educated and end up joining gangs and committing crimes.

Oh dear.....so u have no problem with immgrants except they are all stupid, criminals and wreck the Anerican dream?

My family immigrated over here back in the day.

So ur from a ill-educated background of inner city criminals? You know, that doesn't surpirse me at all.

Of course! Your from the few ''good'' immigrants! It all makes sense, its the rest that are criminals!

Im not saying anything against the people,

ur not? well what about this again?

These people move to the inner-cities, are not educated and end up joining gangs and committing crimes.

Oh dear oh dear, me thinks your views are some what crazy....

Im just simply saying it is hard to make a direct comparison between two nations when they are completely different.? For us, our crime numbers are skewed because of immigration in certain areas.? Just like our education system.? Im not saying guns dont play any role, but there are many other factors as well.?

If only u got rid of foriegn devils, u'd have a utopia!! i'm convinced by your views, lets start up those concentration camps and your Nazi friends can run them. Soon all these poor, uneducated criminal immigrants will be gone!

Immigration in Britain is high percentage wise.? However, they dont have the same number of poor country immigrants that the US has with Mexico.? At our border anyone comes over from the poor countries.? Immigration in Europe is far more strictly regulated.?

U have no idea. U are so ignorant it horrfies me. Under EU law any EU national (all those eastern european ''poor'' nations) can move here without any regulations at all.

People from Jamaica can move here without even a visa

Immigrants are not all stupid or criminals, you know. Many of the mods on this board have emigrated to other countries, are they stupid criminal gang members in your view - if so maybe u should go tell Jarmo that.

Your views are truly shameful. Do u also think that black's are all criminals and that Jews are evil too? Adolf Hitler would love to meet u.

[GnRNightrain]

Your defense of capital punishment is that the criminals have committed crimes that are so serious that their life should be taken. ?Your argument against abortion is that the life of an innocent unborn child should not be taken. ?However you support the War in Iraq which kills innocent people. ?Something there doesn't add up?.... Unless you want to argue that each of these situations is completely different, in which case people CAN have different views on them, in which case some people CAN be pro-choice AND against capital punishment.

No, you didnt read my explanation for being for capital punishment.  I said I am for it becaue of the deterrence factor and because I am not certain that these criminals will stay in prison forever.  I think capital punishment saves lives in the long run.  Therefore, I think by executing a few "criminals" you save the lives of innocent people in the long run.  However, I stated that the deterrenc effect of capital punishment is questionable.  Therefore, if it is shown not to deter and I am certain that these criminals will remain in prison forever, then my support for the DP falls.  I am by no means have an "eye for eye" rationale as you stated in the post above. 

Iraq is the same situation.  I believed that it would save more lives in the long run.  I believed that freedom and saving lives that would occur from an Iraq where there were no WMDs or an evil dictator that constantly killed his people or took his people into struggles would be a good thing in the long run.  I know people die in war.  Its a sad thing.  However, we gave suddam numerous chances to live peacefully in the world.  He chose not to.  All evidence showed that he had WMDs and that he was supporting terrorism.  It is the duty of the President to protect his country.  With the link to terrorism and the WMDs it was a risk that we were just no willing to take.  You guys act like we want to kill innocent people.  War is a horrible, horrible thing.  Our country has done every possible thing they could to protect innocent lives in this war.  We have done more than any country in the history of warfare to try and protect innocent lives in this war.  Most civilian casualties are the result of Iraqi insurgents and foreign terrorists.

[GnRNightrain]

Could some of you pro-lifers put your money where your mouth is and start adopting the children once abortion is illegal again?

What are you crazy??

They'll all be too busy signing up for the military to go fight for good causes overseas.....?

Most that are in the military support the war.  Every conflict you support you have to jump in and go enlist?

So Im not sure where your argument stands.  Furthermore, my brother adopted a child, my parents did foster care for many years.  Im almost certain one day I will adopt a child.  I have already discussed it with my girlfriend.  So spare me on the bullshit. 

You guys are pathetic.

[GnRNightrain]

You are so pathetic it is sad

Because criminals cant buy guns.?

Okay....

They cant buy them legally.

It is a fact that most guns used in crimes were purchased illegally.?

But wait! U just said criminals can't buy guns...... Also, maybe these ''criminals'' bought the guns before they were convicted - or had the gun bought for them. Your whole point is deranged.

Exactly.? There is a black market that exists for guns regardless of whether they are legal or not.? Just like there is for drugs.? You think its legal for gang members to carry guns?? Of course not.? But they do so anyway.? Thats not a result of the gun laws, its a result of people breaking the law and there being a black market for guns.? This would exist, IMO, regardless of whether we sold them at the counter or not.? Im not saying that the number of guns wouldnt be reduced, however, I think you would be taking them away from the lawful users and the black market would still exist for those that are not legal owners.

Only the army should have access to guns. No one needs one. Guns and civilians don't mix. The thought that u own a gun is truly horrifying. If i was a poor immigrant i would be shit scared.

? I dont disagree with the army thing.? Where the fuck does the rest of this come from?
First of all, I dont own a gun.? Second, what makes you think that I hate immigrants?? You are fucking whacked out.

Many European countries have immigration, but not like the US, where it is poor, poor people coming from a neighboring country.? These people move to the inner-cities, are not educated and end up joining gangs and committing crimes.? There are very few European countries that have immigration from poor countries in such high numbers.

Well another poster already showed u to be speaking out of ur arse here.

Actually they didnt, I disproved them.? They gave me a website on asylum which doesnt take into account illegal immigration.? We have illegal immigration in massive numbers which makes all of the other immigrant numbers seem very very small.? IT IS YOU MY FRIEND THAT IS TALKING OUT OF HIS ASS.? If you guys have higher illegal immigration numbers then show me?? Something tells me that you wont.

U are nothing more than a biggot. ''Immigrants are all criminals'' - ur the sterotypical red-neck. U should be ashamed of yourself. Immigrants are predominatly people just seeking a a better life, who are educated and respectable people - ur views sicken me.

:hihi:Go ahead and call me a biggot, you know nothing about me.?

Where the fuck did I say "immigrants are all criminals."? You put it in quotes as if I said that.? You are fucking idiot.? How am I a biggot?? How am I a redneck?? I worked as an intern with the Federal Defenders where I did pro-bono work for immigrants at the border.? So dont give me the redneck I hate all immigrants bullshit.? I am simply stating the truth, that when you have massive numbers of poor people coming across at one time and they go into poor neighborhoods where there might not be any jobs, that crime increases.? This is a fact, and one that you cant refute.? The more jobless or poor, the higher the crime rates are.? You are telling me that this has nothing to do with immigration??

I never once said we shouldnt let any immigrants over here.? In fact Im all for it (legally of course).? I recognize that they are just looking for a better life, and Im sure I would be the first one to try and come over illegally if I wasnt blessed to be born in the US.? I also realize that they do provide a necessary labor force where they are willing to work certain jobs that some lazy ass americans arent willing to work.? Now this has nothing to do with my point.? I said that you cant look at the numbers without taking other factors into account such as immigration.? A country cany sustain that number of people and expect no crime.? It happened the same way with the Italians, the Irish, the Chinese at the beginning of the 20th century.? That doesnt mean I hate these people.? They will work their way up just as those ethnicities have.? In fact we already beginning to see them doing so.? This doesnt change the argument, which you still cant refute.? I worked for the fucking DA, I know that most of the Mexican gang members that are in prison in California are illegal immigrants.? Do you not think that massive numbers of poor immigrants has any effect on crime?? If you do does that make you a biggot?? That is the only point I was trying to make.? I was simply saying it is hard to compare two countries with different numbers in this regard.? I said nothing about whether I liked or disliked immigrants.

I think its sad that you would call me a redneck and a biggot from my post.? It sure says a lot about you.? Is that what you call people that disagree with you?? Im sure that will get you far in life.

It shouldnt baffle you.? There is a direct correlation between immigration from poor nations and crime.? People use comparisons with the crime rate in the US to show that it is all because of guns.? Sure some of it could be becaues of guns, but not many countries get the inner city ghettos that we get from letting such large numbers of poor immigrants into our country.? So any direct comparison with crime rate is skewed.? You get the connection now?

So crime all due to Mexican immigrants - well u solved that mystery! Let's just shoot them all then?

So u need guns to fight back against these 'evil' invaders? Fuck's sake - no wonder Bush got re-elected with ignorant people like u about.

What is inaccurate about those statements?? You said there were gang problems in the UK also?? There is a direct correlation.? It doesnt matter the ethnicity, but simply putting massive numbers of poor people together in the inner cities without jobs creates higher incidents of crime.? Are you refuting this?? You are a sad, sad man that you have to label me a biggot instead of reading what I am saying and realizing that in most every society it is true.? Tell me why there is more violence in inner cities than suburbs?? Can you tell me this?? Is it because there are more poor jobless people?? What effect do you think it will have when you increase the numbers of poor jobless by hundreds of thousands.? My gosh you are sad.

I have no problem with immigrants.

?

U don't...well what about this quote then?

These people move to the inner-cities, are not educated and end up joining gangs and committing crimes.

Oh dear.....so u have no problem with immgrants except they are all stupid, criminals and wreck the Anerican dream?

That is true, a good portion of them do join gangs and commit crimes.? Most?? Nope.? A good percentage?? Nope.? But there are great numbers of them that do.? Does that mean I dont want immigrants coming here?? Absolutely not.? I think it should be more regulated though.? They are not all stupid, however, they dont have the education level necessary to get certain jobs.? They also dont speak english which makes it harder to assimilate into society.? This leads to gangs and crime.? Its a fact my friend.

My family immigrated over here back in the day.

So ur from a ill-educated background of inner city criminals? You know, that doesn't surpirse me at all.

Of course! Your from the few ''good'' immigrants! It all makes sense, its the rest that are criminals!

Again, you are a sad sad man.? My family had to deal with it back in the day just like every other immigrant family did.? They lived in poor areas where there was more crime.? There is a correlation with poor areas and crime you know?? Are you refuting that?? There were a percentage of the people that came across with my family that Im sure committed crimes.? Did that mean all of them?? NO.? Im not saying all of the ones today commit them either.

If only u got rid of foriegn devils, u'd have a utopia!! i'm convinced by your views, lets start up those concentration camps and your Nazi friends can run them. Soon all these poor, uneducated criminal immigrants will be gone!

Now you are calling me a Nazi.? Ok

U have no idea. U are so ignorant it horrfies me. Under EU law any EU national (all those eastern european ''poor'' nations) can move here without any regulations at all.

Do they come over in massive numbers like Mexican immigrants do in the US?? If so show me the numbers.? I doubt they anywhere near what they are in the US.

Your views are truly shameful. Do u also think that black's are all criminals and that Jews are evil too? Adolf Hitler would love to meet u.

You are sad

[Izzy]

Couldn't be bothered to read your rubbish, i showed u up for the rascist fool u r, but one point i will pick u up on

Where the fuck did I say "immigrants are all criminals."?

Just here:

Many European countries have immigration, but not like the US, where it is poor, poor people coming from a neighboring country.  These people move to the inner-cities, are not educated and end up joining gangs and committing crimes.  There are very few European countries that have immigration from poor countries in such high numbers.

  I'm sure that's not a horrible sterotype but the truth!

I'm swayed by your views. There is no immigration in Europe and all Mexicans are evil. I'm so sorry i doubted your wisdom.

[GnRNightrain]

Immigrants are not all stupid or criminals, you know. Many of the mods on this board have emigrated to other countries, are they stupid criminal gang members in your view - if so maybe u should go tell Jarmo that.

I wonder what you mods will think of this post.? Any rationale person reading my post will realize I wasnt bashing immigrants.? I was simply saying that we have more coming here from poor countries and that has an effect on crime numbers.?

I will be very interested to see how the mods react to your post.? You call me a REDNECK, BIGGOT, NAZI, You assume I hate Jews and blacks.? If that is not a violation of the rules I dont know what one is.? I have never seen a post misread so horribly.? I have posted on here for a long time now, and I think it is completely unfair to label me this way considering I have never posted anything to call me a Nazi, redneck, biggot etc.? Ive never been so offended on this board, especially from someone I used to have a good deal of respect for.

Something tells me your post will go unnoticed.? We'll see.

[GnRNightrain]

Couldn't be bothered to read your rubbish, i showed u up for the rascist fool u r, but one point i will pick u up on

Where the fuck did I say "immigrants are all criminals."?

Just here:

These people move to the inner-cities, are not educated and end up joining gangs and committing crimes.

 

I'm swayed by your views. There is no immigration in Europe and all Mexicans are evil. I'm so sorry i doubted your wisdom.

You dont read any explanation, but continue to call me a biggot and put words into my mouth that I never said.  I never said all Mexicans are evil, in fact quite the contrary.  I never saud there is no immigration in Europe in fact quite the contrary.  Learn to read. 

You showed me up for a racist fool, yet you misread everything I wrote

[Izzy]

You dont read any explanation, but continue to call me a biggot and put words into my mouth that I never said.? I never said all Mexicans are evil, in fact quite the contrary.? I never saud there is no immigration in Europe in fact quite the contrary.? Learn to read.?

You showed me up for a racist fool, yet you misread everything I wrote

U claim a large majority of immigrants are uneducated and become criminals, which is patently untrue, and is nothing more than ultra-right wing rhetoric. Scapegoating if you will.

Your views on immigration are very suspect, we get the same kind of ''views'' over here too, but usually aimed at Asians. Over here its called rascism when people say it. Fair enough, its more respectable in America to say these things perhaps? I'd just be very careful with your sterotyping - over here in Europe such views are not acceptable.

Some Mexicans do become criminals - see instead the 90% who just want to get a better life.

[GnRNightrain]

You dont read any explanation, but continue to call me a biggot and put words into my mouth that I never said.? I never said all Mexicans are evil, in fact quite the contrary.? I never saud there is no immigration in Europe in fact quite the contrary.? Learn to read.?

You showed me up for a racist fool, yet you misread everything I wrote

U claim a large majority of immigrants are uneducated and become criminals, which is patently untrue, and is nothing more than ultra-right wing rhetoric. Scapegoating if you will.

I never said a large majority of immigrants are uneducated.  I was referring to the poor ones that come over illegally from Mexico.  It is a fact my friend.  Are you disputing that?

Your views on immigration are very suspect, we get the same kind of ''views'' over here too, but usually aimed at Asians. Over here its called rascism when people say it. Fair enough, its more respectable in America to say these things perhaps? I'd just be very careful with your sterotyping - over here in Europe such views are not acceptable.

What things?  That Mexican Illegal Immigrants are poor.  That massive numbers of poor people going into a society at once where there arent enough jobs ends up leading to an increase in crime.  ANd that this increase in crime skews the numbers for a direct comparison against other countries on crime.  If that is unacceptable and makes me a redneck, Nazi, racist, biggot so be it.

Some Mexicans do become criminals - see instead the 90% who just want to get a better life.

I agree, and I think they should be able to have that better life.  However, crime numbers are skewed because we allow so many poor to come over and try to create that better life.

[jarmo]

Who would've guessed this would happen!

People arguing and insulting each other in a thread about politics. Never saw that one coming...... 


Calm down.



/jarmo

[GnRNightrain]

Who would've guessed this would happen!

People arguing and insulting each other in a thread about politics. Never saw that one coming......?


Calm down.



/jarmo

Absolute groundless insults.  Ive never been so offended on this board.  I would hope that a moderator wouldnt stand for someone calling me a Nazi or biggot based on the content of my posts.

[Izzy]

Gun Control= certainly against assault weapons.  However, most guns used in crimes are not purchased legally.  Furthermore, many try to compare us to certain European countries where there is a ban on guns, however they dont have the immigration we have.

You see from this i get the inference that you are saying, at the very least, that America's gun problems are, to a large degree, the actions of poor immigrants.

This is surely scapegoating? America's gun problems are more than the actions of Mexicans. White on white gun crime is surely considerable more significant in crime figures.

In Britain we have a large gang and sadly a large gun culture too. And yet firearms offences are percentage wise considerably below America. These gangs are frequently alledged to be Greek/Turkish/Asian...yes thats right, immigrants too.

To say gun control in America is largely sound and any problems are with immigrants seems alittle too close to what an NRA spokesman might say?

[GnRNightrain]

I remember reading a thread awhile back where you and Jarmo were debating about the EU and you kept getting mad about him misrepresenting what you were saying.  This is exactly the same situation.

Gun Control= certainly against assault weapons.? However, most guns used in crimes are not purchased legally.? Furthermore, many try to compare us to certain European countries where there is a ban on guns, however they dont have the immigration we have.

You see from this i get the inference that you are saying, at the very least, that America's gun problems are, to a large degree, the actions of poor immigrants.

I meant this is as a general comparison with crime.  We let in more poor people and that has an effect on our crime numbers.

This is surely scapegoating? America's gun problems are more than the actions of Mexicans. White on white gun crime is surely considerable more significant in crime figures.

Its not scapegoating I was simply saying you cant compare crime unless you look at other possible reasons besides guns that crime might be higher in certain countries.  Actually most of the gun crime in america is not white on white, but gang on gang.  Most of these gangs are made up of inner city minorities.  I know you are going to call me racist for saying that.  Its not a matter of their skin color that leads them to have the increased numbers of gun violence.  Its the fact that these people are poor and not as educated when they first come over here.  It takes a few generations just like it took at the beginning of the 20th Century.  You are right, our gun problems are more than that of Mexicans.  I never said we didnt have a gun problem outside of immigration.  I simply said you cant look at the numbers alone without looking at them in context of other contributing factors.  This being one of them.

In Britain we have a large gang and sadly a large gun culture too. And yet firearms offences are percentage wise considerably below America. These gangs are frequently alledged to be Greek/Turkish/Asian...yes thats right, immigrants too.

Your a racist!  You are saying all gangs are immigrants, Greek, Turkish, Asian.  You are a biggot.  Hitler would be happy to meet you.  (that is the type of response you would give to a similar statement). 

Again, my point stands.  You dont have the massive numbers of poor people entering the UK that the US has with the US Mexico border.  Not to say that there arent other factors why we have higher percentages of gun violence.  However, the higher percentage of poor people the higher the crime numbers.  There is a reason why gangs are in poor inner cities and not in the rich suburbs.  Isnt there?

To say gun control in America is largely sound and any problems are with immigrants seems alittle too close to what an NRA spokesman might say?

I never said it was sound.  I never said it was simply the result of immigrants.  I was simply saying that you cant compare crime numbers with the US and other countries without looking at other factors that might contribute to higher crime numbers.  Immigration being one of them.  You understand my point now?  Or do you still think I am a biggot.

[Izzy]

In Britain we have a large gang and sadly a large gun culture too. And yet firearms offences are percentage wise considerably below America. These gangs are frequently alledged to be Greek/Turkish/Asian...yes thats right, immigrants too.

Your a racist!? You are saying all gangs are immigrants, Greek, Turkish, Asian.? You are a biggot.? Hitler would be happy to meet you.? (that is the type of response you would give to a similar statement).?

Notice the word 'alledged', Thank you.

This 'debate' is nonsensical and i choose to leave it. Immigration is one of the many issues the world is dealing with at the moment, its no worse in America than anywhere else I fail to see, as a consequence, why this is a factor in explaining crime levels.

Detroit has one of the highest crime rates in the world, are Mexicans really the cause here too? Is migration of 'poor, uneducated people' really an issue in New York or any other northern city? If it is, then firstly, where do these people come from, and secondly - don't u think it would be far worse for us, considerably closer to these 'poorer' nations?