When Did GNR "Jump the Shark?"

[mick]

Most great bands fuck up at some stage: release a bad album, loose a founding member etc. I think GNR had 4 fuck ups, each could have been recovered from but they seem to be showing the band hurtling towards a conclusion that may not be for the best.

Shark Jump No. 1
I don't know about anybody else but when I first listened to UYI and heard the 'cowboy saloon' plink plonk piano, I was fucking  horrified. I was 21 and listening to Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Faith No More, PJ, STP etc like all the youth of the day and that dated sound seemed so wrong. Of course, Axls voice and Slashs guitar sucked me in and I stayed with them all the way, I was forced to make an uneasy peace with the increasingly lush interpretations of their songs. I loved NV but I still believe if they had put it on the album  as a single expression of love in slew of hard rockers it's impact would have been even greater on the public; a diamond in a sea of rage and danger.

Shark Jump No. 2
Izzys isolation and departure. They re-recorded his guitar parts and ignored his ideas for UYI. If GNR was religion then Izzy was the father, Axl the son and Slash the holy spirit. They fucked that one up badly and without the 'father' the 'son' took absolute power and was corrupted absolutely.

Shark Jump No. 3
GNRs move to the 'Elton John Academy of Bloated Stadium Acts'.  I don't think anyone in that band except for Axl was comfortable with that change but since they all agreed to it, they are all to blame.  I saw three gigs of the UYI tour and loved it but got annoyed and uncomfortable with the damn piano in some of the songs (Pretty Tied Up etc). The backing band wore nice slutty gear and that was all the enjoyment I got from them!! I wanted the old band back, shit even a band as pompous as U2 (who I love) never took so much crap out on tour with them.

Shark Jump No. 4
The Spagetti Incident. I hated the single, the video and that stupid 50's 'doo wop' piano in the background. I just didn't like it and by the looks of the numbers sold, not many others did either. This album was released when land mark albums by Soundgarden, Nirvana and AIC were being released. It smacked of too little effort in a world where music was on fire with new ideas and sounds. GNR were proving their critics right ....Bloated, lazy, arrogant and self indulgent...where were the 5 angry young men that made us grow our hair, smoke Marlboros, play guitar and tell our parents to 'fuck off'

I couldn't agree with your post more, and I believe you are right on here.

One thing, I love some of the boots from the "bloated" days and I actually like the background singers. Bad Obsession during this period was AWESOME.

TSI? was lame and your observation on "effort" is also very accurate.

I would add release SFTD to your list, that was the absolute end. May not have been when they jumped the shark but it was definitly when the shark ate them.

[WAR41]

Shark Jump No. 3
GNRs move to the 'Elton John Academy of Bloated Stadium Acts'.  I don't think anyone in that band except for Axl was comfortable with that change but since they all agreed to it, they are all to blame.  I saw three gigs of the UYI tour and loved it but got annoyed and uncomfortable with the damn piano in some of the songs (Pretty Tied Up etc). The backing band wore nice slutty gear and that was all the enjoyment I got from them!! I wanted the old band back, shit even a band as pompous as U2 (who I love) never took so much crap out on tour with them.

Well done my friend, I couldnt agree more.... I remember when I watched the Paris PPV show after my brother taped it (I wasnt allowed to watch it with him and his friends when they ordered it) and I was ummmm.... surprised I guess.  Certainly not in a good way.  Definitely not something I expected.  Then when Tracii and Roberta came onstage with them.... wow, that was really ridiculous. 

I think the band butchered Welcome to the Jungle, Knockin on Heaven's Door, and Sweet Child that entire tour.  The UYI stuff was the only stuff that at least sounded decent.

[Twisted Nerve 85]

It seems funny to me how so many of you are against songs like November Rain and Estranged, but quite a few of my friends who aren't GNR fanatics, but do like them, like them because of these songs.? What you guys need to understand is that the great rock bands of all time like Zeppelin, Metallica, Def Leppard, Aerosmith, etc, all have good soft, slower songs.? Appetite was an amazing CD, but the Illusions completed GNR as being one of the greatest rock bands of all time.? Why?? Because it showed there diversity, and their music then became appealing to a much bigger audience.?

Producing songs like Patience, NR, Estranged, and Don't Cry wasn't "jumping the shark", it took GNR to a higher level.? ? ?

To me, UYI was the reason why GnR was so great, I mean they've done the "go fuck urself,badass,balls out,whiskey chugging album" (Appetite), then one studio session inspired 4 brilliant tracks (Lies). And to me UYI was going all out, theres no such thing as bloated music. Taking chances and making music from the heart is what its all about. Bloated my ass, Im sorry but ppl need to get over that Seattle grunge concept where if u strip a band down to its bare bones that makes it rock n roll. NO IT DOESNT!!!! As long as ur making great music thats coming from the heart, whichever way u choose to do it is fine. Im so sick of this "whats with the orchestra" bullshit.

Bottom line, art is art. Regardless of what form the canvas takes. 

[Mr. Sinister]

GNR definitely jumped the shark with the November Rain song/video. Over the top to the max. I like bits and pieces of the Illusion records, but as a whole they're wildly inconsistent and even the most ambitious tunes (Estranged in particular) are just too much. As much as I didn't like TSI, I'll give it credit - They went for a more stripped down approach, and it was like a breath of fresh air after the UYI's.


As for the new band, we'll see - The new tunes have all avoided the pratfalls that killed the UYI's for me. I'm excited for CD to live up to the potential showed by previous records, and hopefully Axl's moved on from Elton John territory. Songs like "Oh My God" and "Madagascar" bode extremely well for the record.

[jgfnsr]

It seems funny to me how so many of you are against songs like November Rain and Estranged, but quite a few of my friends who aren't GNR fanatics, but do like them, like them because of these songs.? What you guys need to understand is that the great rock bands of all time like Zeppelin, Metallica, Def Leppard, Aerosmith, etc, all have good soft, slower songs.? Appetite was an amazing CD, but the Illusions completed GNR as being one of the greatest rock bands of all time.? Why?? Because it showed there diversity, and their music then became appealing to a much bigger audience.?

Producing songs like Patience, NR, Estranged, and Don't Cry wasn't "jumping the shark", it took GNR to a higher level.? ? ?

I think you made a good point here.

When a band hits it big with a record they often attempt to follow it up with another one similar too it.

Contrary to those who think the Illusions were just a "parody" of their former work, those albums really did show their diversity and scope.   

But I suppose there will always be those who prefer the same thing over and over and over again.  They are often the ones who are huge fans of bands like AC/DC or the Sex Pistols....   

[Falcon]

Contrary to those who think the Illusions were just a "parody" of their former work, those albums really did show their diversity and scope.? ?

Or lack of focus and self indulgence run amok...

But I suppose there will always be those who prefer the same thing over and over and over again.? They are often the ones who are huge fans of bands like AC/DC or the Sex Pistols....? ?

The Pistols did 1 record so doing "the same thing over and over and over again" would be a trick now wouldn't it??

[ppbebe]

They are often the ones who are huge fans of bands like AC/DC or the Sex Pistols....   

Musically I much prefer PIL.

[jimmythegent]

Interesting topic and some very good points made 

For me, there are several, but I've gotta go with the marginalisation and subsequent departure of Izzy - it had far reaching ramifications.

For one, songwriting - Izzy was an essential component, a natural songwriter who essentially defined GN'Rs sound - coupled with Slash's hard blues sound and Axls extremes of emotion, Izzy was the glue that held it all together. Seemingly he was the only one who could contain Axls ego to some degree as well.

The other important thing Izzy gave GN'R was it's sense of style and cool. After he left it was all bloated stadium rock, ego-ramps and excessive self-indulgent(deluded) videos. Whoever said  Slash and Duff are equally to blame as Axl for allowing this happen had it dead on - Izzy would have never put up with it - Izzy had an inherent awareness of what made GN'R tick in the public conscience, and in many ways orchestrated their early success.

That is why he will forever be my favourite Gunner, an enduring icon of cool who had the foresight and vision to bail before the ship plummetted into farce.

[Mr. Sinister]

I feel the same way. After Izzy left, the band sailed into the seas of self-paradoy and self indulgence. He's far and away the coolest of the old gunners, in my opinion, and his erratic input on the Illusions (at least according to Slash) shows through.

Gotta love 14 Years. 

[Rob]

I personally have no problem with the elaborate videos like November Rain and all that over the top stuff.  As long as the songs were still great (and they were) that's the most important thing.  I love watching the video for November Rain.  I think it s so cool watching them do all that crazy elaborate stuff.  That's part of beng a rock star.  Those guys weren't afraid to be rock stars.  They didn't care what people thought, that's why they were so cool.  I don't think they "jumped the shark" until Axl brought this new group of clowns together and called it Guns N' Roses.

[AxlStaleyWeiland]

Dizzy Reed and all the excessive gay piano on UYI,

[Acquiesce]

GNR definitely jumped the shark with the Illusions albums and the tour that followed. GNR were the answer to arena-rock when they hit the scene with Appetite. Yet, they became another arena-rock band when they released the Illusions. They were once leading the charge against bloated, self-indulgent, rock, but became the prime target of bloated, self-indulgent rock when they released the Illusions.

That's not to say the Illusions are bad albums. I personally enjoy them, but the perception of GNR (both public and from their musical peers) changed when they released these albums. I think all of the self-indulgence had a big hand in their downfall. They weren't a band anymore, but merely a collection of egos.

[ryan_of_lax]

I don't think the Illusions were jumping the shark at all.
They were great albums, and huge. They were different. Not bad.

The videos were great. November Rain is still one of my favorite videos ever. And GNR will always be remembered for it. So that obviously wasn't a bad thing.

It was the egos that killed Guns N' Roses.

[jgfnsr]

The Pistols did 1 record so doing "the same thing over and over and over again" would be a trick now wouldn't it??

Not really.?

"Never Mind the Bollocks" just had the same song over and over again.? ?

[younggunner]

I think the diversity of responses in this thread demonstrate why GNR, in every "phase", is capable of being the best band in the world.

[Falcon]

The Pistols did 1 record so doing "the same thing over and over and over again" would be a trick now wouldn't it??

Not really.?

"Never Mind the Bollocks" just had the same song over and over again.? ?

That's a pretty big generalization of the most influential record of the past 30 years, bar none.

[Koskenkorvasieni]

I don't think that the Illusions were "jumping the shark" at all, but I think that when Axl fired Gilby and brought in Paul Hoogey, Slash left and Matt was fired, they pretty much jumped the shark. The band basically disintergrated because of Axl's oversized ego...

[jameslofton29]

Jimmytheagent, I couldn't have said it better myself. At some point, most GNR fans have to realize that Izzy was the key.Although its obvious to some of us, others just dont seem to get the big picture. Izzy can never be replaced. He was the soul of the band. No amount of Pauls or Bucketheads can change that fact. But Kudos to everyone in this thread. You guys wrote some of the greatest posts I've ever read.

[AxlsMainMan]

GNR definitely jumped the shark with the November Rain song/video. Over the top to the max. I like bits and pieces of the Illusion records, but as a whole they're wildly inconsistent and even the most ambitious tunes (Estranged in particular) are just too much. As much as I didn't like TSI, I'll give it credit - They went for a more stripped down approach, and it was like a breath of fresh air after the UYI's.

I have to agree with the NR comments. I love the song but watching that video is like watching a Lionel Richie music video, not the kick ass rock n' roll band I fell in love with when Appetite came out. I love every single track on UYI II, but UYI I took me a long time to form a real appreciation for. Some songs are definately fillers, and if the album was condensed perhaps my feel for the cd would be greater.

[Thorazine Shuffle]

They "jumped the shark" when Axl started making false claims about CD coming out and not giving a damn about the fans with not giving at least an update on whats going on.?


here come the flames?