Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I wanted to understand something, I see alot of the if the new albums never happen I'm still happy because I have the old stuff, and we have old albums etc., etc etc.. Yet all that anyone talks about is the new band.. 

So my thing is if you have just a handfull of shows and a few new song that aren't as good as the old then why is there mostly talk about the second version of gnr and not the one we all know and love?

I see sites devoted to new gnr and some are so anti vr, I don't understand why if you are a gnr fan that you have such a dislike towards the other members.. Nobody says you have to like vr's new album, butt o hate the old members sounds so idiotic if you love gnr..

Just help me to understand why there is so much anti old gnr and so much pro new gnr..? If everyone is like whatever with the new album and you're all guns n roses fans then what's the problem?

People say well if you aren't into cd or the new band then why do you go to gnr forums.. ? I just wonder when did gnr forums become a staple for the new guys without an album? How have they payed their dues in regards to gnr?

I see forums that get so angry if you have negative shit to say about new gnr, why does everyone defend them to the death, they have'nt even given us anything yet and the linueup is always subject to change..

The point was if so many people are going to get on people's ass for being annoyed that cd isn't out and tell them it's no big deal and enjoy the old albums, then why does the old guys get so little mentiones and why do you worship the new guys so much more?

This is just a two year observation, it's just some things I would like people to address, I was just curious to see how people felt.. :beer:

I understand the band has changed, I just don't get the devotion of people from having so little being fans of a group that broke up..

I just need to understand it better, I enjoy vr alot, but it's because of seeing them, having countles interviews, having an album, videos, getting to know a band I pretty much have been listening to for years (matt scott, slash duff)..

I just can't understand the huge love for all players from other bands having such minimal material to go by and so much dislike towards the band that made gnr.. Yet people will cry their eyes out and go nuts over some shady interviews by ex members, but they will defend axl to the end and say it's ok if he releases nothing.. It's doesn't make sence..

that's YOUR perception. :P

fine songs as good as the old.. It still doesn't say a thing about what I said..

Exactly, and don't forget this board has an Ex-Gunners/Velvet Revolver Section, there are plenty of people like myself who like and respect everyone ever involved in the band.  Firstly though the old band is over, many don't want to dwel in the past all the discussions about the new band are people's efforts to move forward.  As for people who have a dislike for old members or who hate the new band the fact is ex-gunners don't really get along with Axl and i am guessing, only guessing though, many people feel they should...take...sides e.g. support their favourite members e.g. Some people think 'Axl is a cock he just sacked everyone'.....otherwise think 'Nah, Axl is just misunderstood'.  Everyone has a different perception and is welcome to like or support or hate who they want.  Like i said before i like them all but my full support goes to the New GN'R well before anything else related to the ex-members.  As for the new guys many people on this board have looked into their previous projects and have great respect for them as musicians, this board seems to be full of people who love Buckethead solo albums, Tommy Stinson's new release seems to be going down a storm although i am yet to listen to it along with his work in The Replacements, Primus from what i have heard are a class act and well.....Richard Fortus w/ N Sync.....jeez that was a dream come true for me ;)

Because most people have accepted the fact that the old band is done. Those same people have decided to either? stick around and see what Axl has in store for us or just leave.

I think its an interesting point you bring up. To me it shows and says that Axl is the main drawing card compared to the old members. There is something about Axl that sticks out and gets peoples attention. Yes we all love the old members but Axl seems to be on another level in terms of popularity amongst the gnr fans. And that goes for the haters as well. Axl draws peopel from all opinions.

Another thing that I think plays into the whole thing is that I think people see that maybe Axl isnt lieing over the yrs. Not to say the old guys are lieing but its more of a handful of guys vs this 1 guy. And when the group has some accusations towards Axl but cant build an overwhelming case towards the guy I think people are tending to lean towards Axl over the past year or two in my opinion.
Its also based on the fact that some people arent overly impressed or enjoy CB that much.

Because the past is the past. Believe it or not there are many old gnr fans who love Axl and the new guys.
For me I love the old band. They were absolutely great. BUt new gnr is my band. Not only do I love Axl but I also have a connection with the new members as well. Maybe its because I dont look at it as a old vs new type thing.

And that my friend shows the power of Axl ROse. HE has done jack shit, some would say treated his fans horribly, etc,etc...yet there is a legion of people ready to embrace this new band. That in and of itself speaks volumes imo. The band hasnt done much since they began but I guess peopel see the potential. Some see the potential, some want to see them fail.
Like I said before...thats what Axl brings and has over the old guys.

That quote Duff said about Axl and the fans a few yrs back is coming to mind.....


SOme dont look at it like old vs new. SOme embrace this band and see their talents and potential. Although most of them arent really aminstream guys they are talented muscicans. Combine that with a guy like Axl peopel get excited. Me atleast. It also has to do with the Axl factor. People are curious about what he is up to and know that despite his negatives ...is an amazing songwriter,performer and singer.....and that he has the ability to create something very special. Somehting that might outdue any previous efforts by himself and his former band....

But as I have been saying...the jury is still out and time will tell....


Youy can also ask...if the whole gnr situation was reversed. The old guys were still together, it was still called gnr, and Axl left would thier be message board/internet sites devoted to gnr like it is today? Would the intensity/passion of the gnr fan still be there?

Some fans weren't around when the old band ruled the world. So for them this new band is the only GN'R they have experienced.

I'm not sure they're "anti old band", they're just not fans of the ex-members post-GN'R work.

Just like there are fans of the ex-members who'll do anything to discredit Axl, there's Axl fans who'll do the same about the ex-members.





/jarmo

Alright, I give this a shot.

Back when things got real bleak for the classic GNR, and I knew the end was near, the stories I was hearing forever changed my own perceptions. I am a real big Beatles fan. But, I am not a fan of there early work. That is not the part that relates this to GNR. When things became clear the Axl wanted their sound to grow and evolve, I got real excited. I got excited because that is what the Beatles did, and did it collectively. The sound that came from them really moves and touches me in ways I cant really describe. Now, for GNR to risk everything and go into new realms, is the fucking shit. It takes balls. The UYI at the very least, shows that there is somthing so much more they could be doing. There was mass experimenting there, and I feel they might have been really onto something. Maybe they could have ushered in something completely new and innovated.

But it quickly became clear that only Axl was willing to take the next step. I still dig Slash. He is one of the greats. But I don't respect him as much as I would had he decided to evolve into someone greater. Jimi Hendrix for years played backup electric guitar. But Jimi was a genius and a beast and he thrived to go as far as he could with the music. Jimi had drive. That is what makes Hendrix so relevant today and respected. Axl has this drive. The Beatles had this drive. But GNR collectively didn't, and I fucking hate that Slash and Duff couldnt see the bigger picture. We sure as shit would have had some new GNR we could have been enjoying right now had Slash and Duff decided to step outside there box.

I respect Axl more for following this vision. And although VR was kind of fun, it didnt move me at all. It was run of the mill R&R. For that, it is cool. But that is all it is. And that is all Slash and Duff want to be. They are in a safe place, and they deserve a shit load of props for the music they helped create, and for still being in a popular band. But their music isnt changing shit. Its not here to kick you in the face and show you what music could be. Not like what Appetite first did. Its giving you what you already now. They played it safe. Axl never played it safe...never. 

well said dude

in the beginning...

They got atracted to eachother
and knew they had to play together when they saw and heard eachother

Maybe the thought, wow this band is so amazing and intresting and the era\time is something that affect that opinion

but time evolves and nothing lasts 4-ever...

so lookin at the new guys and their special competanse...
i'm just: wow this band is so amazing and intresting and thats why i'm so into this new band+

-i'm a big fan of axl (amazing voice and presence)
-and the new songs rock

don't get all the hatred between the different era's, i'm really into the old albums (though afd startin to sound poor, like when you play young elvis-good songs, but the soundproduction is not up to standars anymore)
-and i love watchin shows by the old band,

but some people seem to think that the old band still exist and that axl has fucked it up
them i don't get, it's a new band 2 me :beer:

ps\ hope for a feb release : ok:

I agree about the newer fans that frequent the board have basically mostly seen new gnr and came to appreciate them as the band that I liked when gnr was king..

And yes axl has the mystery and the draw, most people do like the lead singer most..
I enjoy axl more then anything, he was my favorite lead singer growing up..


I guess I had this feeling where when I first joined or checked gnr websites there was this huge love for buckethead, and he was the next big thing and everyone seemed to look at him as the best of the three players, and now I see such a dislike towards him (not by all, just some) like he was never part of the band, yet he has basically contributed as much as many others (being we've only seen the live gigs).
Maybe for me it's otugher because I don't like the newer stuff as much as the old so FOR ME the new album is vital because I don't sit here listening to the boots n oh my god even though I own them..

Well nice explanations everyone, I'm off to the gym then work, see you people sometime tomorrow.. : ok:

Crazy Bastard! Give it long enough and all the old GN'R albums will start sounding poor

NOT, it's he same as the techincal old black-white vhs-quality it's annoyingly not up to the standards

But the songs are good

I guess Ill try and throw my opinion into this. First of all I absolutely loved the original GnR line-up and always will love and praise the albums that they gave us but as a band unit they no longer exist and as chances see it, probably never will again. I support VR and always will, but Contraband inarguably is a massive dissapointment. I love R&R and Contraband is R&R, very good rock at that, but the album lacks direction and inspriration. Slash, Duff, and Matt had so much potential to move on and evolve from the sheer greatness they exhibited on AFD or the UYI's, but unfortunately they have not and as a result I am very optomistic that with the experimentation and brilliance the new tracks possess, VR will pale in comparirson to the new GnR. I dont however see things as black and white like alot of people do on here where if you like Slash and the old guys then your opposed to Axl and his new project, or if you support Axl, then you are for lack of better words pissing all over GnR's legacy. To me theres no harm in loving the new band and whatever direction the old guys may take in the future. In answer to your other question though, I support Axl even with no album  released because I feel that Axl is without a doubt one of the best rock and roll singers of all time and he is an absolute genioud when it comes to music and with the correctly assembled group of musicians that he has, there is no stopping him. He is a man with a true aurora(sp) constantly lingering around him in which no matter what he does or what he doesnt do, he will always be remembered and followed into the years that his career will center around, and if they are used to reclaim greatness then so be it, if not then we truly do have brilliant matterial to look back on.

Woah, stop a second. Inarguably? Don't put your opinion on such a high pedestal mate, a lot of people would disagree with that statement.

As to the topic, I'm no new Guns fan. I don't like the new songs (although the guitar on The Blues is pretty good, though the solos lack the finesse of Slash's), and I'm none too happy about Axl effectively stealing the Guns n' Roses name off the old guys (I read about how he came to own the rights and man, that was just a rotten way to treat your bandmates). But don't particularly dislike them, I just don't care for the band. If Chinese Democracy does find its way out, and people buy it, good for them. If you like a band, you should support it. If Axl releases it and tours to stadiums full of fans, that's fine with me, I just won't be one of them. I don't really understand the negativity on both sides either. Me, I'm loving VR, but I'm not going to start shit with Axl fans. Each to their own, if you like.

I'm not trying to jump on your band wagon Buddha Master, but your post to me is exactly the way I see it too. I couldnt have put that any differently. I opened this thread to have my say and then I got to your post and once I had read I thought there is no point in duplicating it! Well said and yes the Beatles later stuff was fantastic!

Man, I know some people will say "Fuck him!" for what I'll say, but I'll try anyways

For me there are several controversial points

1. Does the band exist? How can you say - this is Guns N' Roses - when all they did was release one song. BUT....They toured and though played mostly old songs and proved that they can "play the shit out of the old songs". (I don't believe in this concept of "farewell-to-old-songs-tour", let's face it they had these 5-6 songs, some of em pretty raw - SW, Rhiad, some almost ready, and that was all....no album, no 70 songs, nothing). I do not doubt the high potential of the band, but there's no band. It's not a band in normal meaning of this word, this is more like a virtual band. Finally, does a normal band act like this band does to its fans? We don't know shit about what's goin' on. Its fine with Axl, but other"band"members could say something different from "it's almost done. coming soon. worth the wait.blablabla"
2. People who bash Slash and other ex-bandmembers are just immature. How can you say "Slash is shit, Duff is shit, everybody except Axl is shit"? How? These people have written the music that we love, that unites us, that makes us happy. How can you deny something that brings joy to you?Would you? And when somebody says the thing that I said before (that each bandmember played its part in the overall success of the band), these people make a perfect theory to justify themselves - "Axl did all the work, hes the only genius in this band". You know whats this called like?. Double talkin' jive motherfucker!

Thank you.

Peace

This is fucking human nature, Mike


P.S. Sorry for the 2nd straight post

What makes them so good is the raw 'unpolished' sound, i would not want it polished and tampered with so it sounded as good as today's standards, as for black/white some of the greatest films are and they are great because of the quality of the script the depth within' it there is such a thing as being too good, films these days have great special effects but suck from the story point of view.............go watch Gone With The Wind or It's A Wonderful Life........[seems i went a little off topic]

Never said the films wasn't good, had good stories and stuff-
-but looking at the pic is annoying, the blurred image, unwanted colors, spots etc

same with afd, it's very good and the songs are amazing, but the sound is starting to degenerate, it's a bit poor
when you listen to the standards in soundproduction 2day,

they should remaster it :yes: i like listening 2 it on lp though :-\

Nevertheless, I like this band the best. I feel their potential through their sounds and I love it.
What can I do?

I?m not always a singer-fan. For example I prefer the Edge to Bono.

Yep. 
I don't think new fans bash the ex-members.
Then again, of course, honour bright I defend my fav band against those who do everything to discredit them. :hihi:

By the way and the other way round, is there anyone in support of just VR who hasn?t been a diehard fan of old school GNR or STP around? It would be quite interesting if any. 

bridesofdestruction, vr etc has that better audio standard and still sounding raw :headbanger:

and it has better quality that the today ultraclear recording, and still sounds raw and real

Basically, I don't want to steal from anything that young gunner and Buddha Master have said, because I think they managed to express things quite well.  Well said, both of you!

Essentially, what it boils down to is this:? Axl was and is the artist of Guns N Roses.? Duff & Slash were musicians who were content with being comfortable in that zone.?

An artist doesn't want contentment or comfort, they want to be challeged, they thrive on it.? Essentially, they find contentment with malcontent.

What Axl has brought together is a group of similar minded people, people who have been willing to step outside of the box and find the artist within themselves, because Slash & Duff didn't have the balls to do that.

I'm not even trying to slag on Slash & Duff... they are what they are, but that doesn't make VR better than, or even comparible to GNR (past or present) because, I'm sorry, but I haven't seen much of the artist drive in Scott either, otherwise Contraband would have been far less disappointing.? (And, Scott probably wouldn't be the lead singer of VR if he did possess that drive)?

There's nothing wrong with basic, balls to the wall rock n roll... it's great.? And I enjoy VR despite it's limitations within that category.

Axl, in contrast, has always seem to want to blur the line of limitations, and push himself and the music further... to push the envelope.? I think, sadly, this is also somewhat of the undoing... because as an artist myself, there is always a strive for perfection that is unattainable.? The image we see in our mind just will never come to fruition because in our mind it is at it's perfect state, and artists are limited by the material tools of the trade that will never achieve that ultra perfection... we may get close... but never perfect.? We never find the exact right words, the exact right colors, the exact right sounds... to express that which we strive to express exactly the way we wish to have it conveyed, because we have limitations within this imperfect world, and the only perfection that exists is within our own vision.

Is Techno/Oh My God + Syrupy Ballads being artistic and pushing the music further? If anything that type of music limits artists, not challenge them. If Axl wants the 10 minute songs like Coma or Estranged i can understand his artistic image of perfection better. But If Axl's just throwing shit out like OMG, or the Blues and explaing it as something artistic he needed 10 years to finish, well i have to say those songs wont cut it.

Im actually happy to hear orchestra arrangements are brought in, because i feel songs without arrangements will all sound like techno or CD....nothing great.

See that's what I never get, you here about evolving and moving so far away in directions that the old guys didn't want to go, but can someone tell me what is so special about the new songs in contrast to the old ones..?

I mean if you call using synths and sound effects moving on then he's headed in the wrong direction..To me the new songs are gnr lite as far as a contrast to gnr's older music..
You can dislike the old guys or whatever because they didn't wan tto evolve as artists, but they made it clear that they just want to do rock music, axl on the other hand wants to move on, but by judging the new/old boots we have it didn't show anything but average tracks that can't hold a candle to the older stuff he was trying to advance from..

He should have stuck to the music style he did instead he can't get one album out.. Hopefully if n when teh album comes out it's much better then the few songs we've heard..

So far new gnr has been an old gnr cover band that made some average to below average tunes.. :-\

This is what I don't get. Man, you cannot even say something like that until we have all heard Chinese Democracy. Look man, I am a video game player. Anyone else who is too can back up what I am about to say. Shit what was I gonna say...oh yea. A demo. I play lots of them. But the one thing about them is that they are usually a very poor representative of how the final game will actually feel when playing them. Sometimes they put you in a strange place with all your abilities already aquired, and the game just isnt that much fun to play. Prince of Persia comes to mind as an example. I thought the game was so fucking lame based on that demo of it I played. But then the retail game came, and I tried it again, and totally thought it was awesome. The story leading me through the adventure was fun, as was earning the abilities and skills as the game progressed.

Anyway my point is we don't know shit about what the real sound of the new album will be. Let's have this debate you are creating for after we have heard it.

That's all good and shit, but how come we can praise the music but when it gets a bad reply from someone they get it's not out yet..? I only stated how I felt about the music I've heard so far.. Sure a demo is not the same but it's still somewhat of a preview..  You don't advertise with something just to switch teh product..

I said I want the album and want it more then most because I don't enjoy the boots, so for me I really have no new music at all.

There's people that like one ot two songs off contraband, so that's how they feel, I only said that the songs I've heard in comparison to the notion of evolving doesn't blow me away in any way.. Everyone's argument is only based on those boots, so why is my opinion less because they're demos.. I'm sure oh my god wasn't a demo, it was a piece of music that was probably somewhat of how cd would have sounded../ I'm sure the album has been changed alot since 99, but I have little doubt that that was a sample of a sound to be, not all teh songs but some..

I hope new gnr does amazing, regardless I will probably buy an extra album for the car.. I only went by the boots and that was it and by what people use to make their points of how the ex gunners didn't want to evolve.. I only said what have they evolved into based on those boots?

In contrary Can you explain what so special about the old songs strictly on old live boots in contrast to the new ones?
I?m in favour of Riyadh, CD and Oh My God. I believe what I sense myself.
Talking about evolving and moving, the style doesn?t mean a shit.
Besides I guess some of what we heard were perhaps still in progress, same as Don?t Cry played in ?86. If I were there, I would have foreseen the future of the song.

Buddha_Master,
That's what I can say even before having heard the album.

Yes, Oh My God (and the syrupy ballads) is being artistic, because it was something very different, something unfamiliar, and something unexpected.  Just because you didn't appreciate it for what it was doesn't mean that it's not an artistic expression.  Many people didn't appreciate Van Gogh during his time either, but that doesn't stop his paintings now from selling for  $40 million+

many people thought the same thing about November Rain going in the wrong direction as well.  And I can even argue in defense of such an argument, because November Rain isn't my favorite GNR tune. 

But, that doesn't make it any less viable as an artistic expression.  Just because I may not appreciate the tools an artist uses or the direction his/her expression may take, doesn't mean that expression is any less valid.  Picasso had several different "periods" in his artistic lifetime, and some prefer the blue period over his more classicism phase.  That doesn't mean his work in his later career is any less artistic an expression.

We have only heard a handful of the "new" songs, we don't even know if any of these songs will be on the album (although there's a pretty good chance that "chinese democracy" will be on the album "chinese democracy"). 

hmm, yes and no. I like listening 2 it, and i think they are as they are 4 a reason,

whats cool is that you hear chris, dizzy and all the members on it, and you hear some direction hints...
and we know the mainman deliver quality : ok:

Rockbands has always had limits, metallica got slammed for makin a video, gnr for november rain-
and thats stupid

I think axl found musical potential in stuff, chris, bucket, finch etc can deliver
 and he will not let himself be limited by what a bad rockerboy is supposed 2 do, and rather evolve himself

I'm intrested in what i heard so far ar least, and the potential 4 this to work 4 me too :beer:

Then why do many people who dislike the band and the material say..".o this shit sounds nothing like old gnr. This aint gnr, this aint rnr, etc"

something must be different.....

Are the songs we have heard earth shattering? No...are they different than old gnr...some of it yes, some of it no....

I think many miss the point about the whole evolution thing. Maybe evolution to Axl just means adding a few modern things, but keeping it gnr. Like CD for instance.

The blues can come right out of the illusions.

My point is I think Axl will definately push the envelope on a lot of the material but he will also keep it "gnr". 
Which will then spark comments liek you have made....

we dont know if the material will be earth shattering and "worth the wait" because we havnt heard the material they feel most strongly about. But to say gnr havnt evolved from thier old sound is not being fair because with the sample of songs we have there is definately progress in the sound compared to the old stuff.

Whats great about the new songs that have been previewed thus far is that to me at least, musically and lyrically they are like a breath of fresh air compared to all the shitty bands and songs that consume modern rock radio these days. Listening to Maddy or The Blues literally sends goosebumps down my spine, I truly see that much potential and creativity in the songs that without a doubt based on the new band's bootlegs, even if the album doesnt come out for another decade if thats what it takes, every second of the wait will be worth it. AFD or the UYI twins are instant classics, I make no mistake about that, but so many bands past and present adopt a genre formula if you will after the success of their first few cds, so much so that they are almost always afraid to advance and experiment. If the new band did no experimentation with different genres of music as it is obvious they have done so far, there is no doubt in my mind they would have failed. You cannot recreate AFD or the UYI throughout a bands life span, it grows repetitive and tiresome to use the same formula. Who knows if CD will be heavily synth orientated, even if it is I welcome such influences with open arms because I have confidence in Axl's creativity and the material he has waiting for us.

I feel what Axlsmainman is saying.

Lets just talk about what has been previewed. Im just going to talk about one song in particular. Madagascar. When I hear it, Im not hearing synths or sound effects. Im hearing something beautiful. The song is a trip. Axls voice is beatuiful especially when he hits the big "I" note. I find the song to be deep and rich and something much more than anything I have heard since maybe the Downward Spiral. It moves me. I feel it. Its not a ballad or anything that even remotedly, beyond Axls voice, sounds anything like GNR of old.

Maybe this song is the best example we have, whether one gets it or not with this. Let me tell you. I am personally no longer convinced CD will see the light of day. But regardless, you either feel Madagascar or you don't. Like the man above here said, it is a breath of fresh air. I feel that. If someone doesn't at the very least, find it to be interesting and intriguing, then maybe CD won't be for you. But to me, it is an evolution.

One thing about this 'moving on and evolving' thing lots of people have a go at Slash for apparently not being interested in and hating him for it.
If you read Slashs side of things he said that Axl wanted to sound like Pearl Jam, Actung Baby era U2 and Nine Inch Nails. I think a lot of people have missed the point that Slash didn't like the fact that Axl was obviously copying other (arguably lesser) bands ideas, bands who were in the limelight there and then. Imagine if GNR had come out with a grunge album that sounded like GNR pretending to be Pearl Jam, they would have been KILLED... Look at what happened to STP when they came out, they were eaten alive by the music community.
I also wished that GNR would have evolved with the old line up and I think that aspects of UYI were timeless and highly evolved from the original GNR sound. This shows a willingness on Slashs behalf to move on. Matt was also listening to lots of the same material as Axl and could have helped too. Slash is a classic player but would probably have evolved along with Axl  if Axl had been trying to evolve in the right way. Trying to sound like other bands of the day is just lame for a band of their stature and you have to make your sound your own.
I think the hatred here from the likes of Dave and others astounds me since he's probably loving the Slash experience with Axls singing everyday.
It makes no sense for me. I'm sorry for the old line up that they never saw their band go to the heights of the greats like Led Zep etc and I'm sorry for the new guys who have to fill their shoes, it cannot be easy.

Some quick points on this while I'm thinking:

 - When Slash, Duff etc said they wanted to play rock only, that doesn't mean its limiting themselves, rock has a massive scope for experimentation.

 - If the guys thought Axl was giving up the sound that made us love them just to copy other bands maybe they were uncomfortable with that not 'lazy' as Axl said. (two sides to every story).

 - When people hammer Slash for not liking NR and Estranged, just listen to his guitar work on those songs, he poured his soul into those solos. They are beautifully rendered, complex in their layed arrangementand multi-tracked (I love his 'soaring' noises in the break in Estranged) to take Axls word on this belittles truely stunning and heartfelt work by the man.

 - Axl has been 10 years in the shed probably because for the first few years he made exactly the mistake that Slash and Duff were worried about, he copied styles fashionable of the time and the songs quickly went out of fashion and he had to go back to the drawing board.

 - The five songs we have heard from the GNR camp are good but similar in impact tp Contraband, not earth movers by any stretch. The world did not go on fire when Axl played Maddy at the MTV awards, I don't think I read one excited comment about that songs in the press afterwards.

 - We will never know the truth about what happened in GNR and to take sides is silly and pointless. However, I find it hard to ignore that all former members of GNR are on one side and Axl is on the other. Plus some of the comments made by former employees of the last GNR tour on 'Behind the Music' about Slash and Duff having to 'eat shit' too much of the time saddened me. I met Axl & Slash in 1992 and they were both gentlemen.

Cheers,
Inter

How come no1 said anything when they were influenced by the rolling stones, queen and all those punk bands?

Theres a difference between copying and being influenced by something. ANd Axl wasnt going to copy those bands. He was going to take those new elements, mesh them with his old influences, and make a gnr sound out of that. Thats what the band did with AFD/UYI. The idea of Axl wanting to be the next grunge band is just a cop out. History speaks for itself.

I think that there are 3 types of G'n'R fans,

Axl fans:  who are dedicated to Axl alone as the heart and soul of the original band (and the new band too for that matter)  Any slight to him is like being insulted personally.  These fans oppose anything that opposes Axl. And its Slash's fault for the breakup of G'n'R. For these fans they just want to hear Axl sing and anything he touches is great.

Slash fans: ditto but for Slash instead of Axl. and it was Axl's fault for the breakup. for these fans nothing but the orig lineup will satisfy them. Nu-G'n'R sucks and V.R. rules to them.

G'n'R fans: these people will listen to anything by any band member old or new.  They know the old G'n'R is over (but most still hope for a reunion) but anything a member (or former member) releases is awesome.

The last type is me ;D

He had an album that was supposedly ready for release around that time, and from the sound of OMG I am going to go out on a limb and say there were alot of tracks that sounded something like that. It would only make sense given that his new lead guitarist  at the time was cut straight from that style. I believe the luke-warm reaction to the song did send him back to the drawing board. How else does someone explain that we are this far into the process with nothing to show for it? (Aside from the 3 album stuff) I do think he had taken a step back and re-calibrated his plan of attack. It would make sense, as I think the need to go out and get Bucket at the time was that what he had recorded was obviously missing something. Otherwise there woud have been no need to get another new guitarist and spend another 4-5 years in the studio.

You call it a cop-out, but if it were a court case the preponderance of evidence would support that there has been some major re-structuring done in the direction of the band from what the album was initially supposed to sound like, to what we will most likely end up getting. (With almost all signs of songs like OMG with industrial influnce being put out to pasture.)

Man, I don't think that is quite accurate about your assessment for the place OMG had. I believe the song was to the new album what a song like Nice boys don't play rock and roll, was to Appetite. An early test. I don't think there was an album that was ready to roll at that time. It was the same old song and dance that we have been hearing since the late 90's with Chinese Democracy. Every year we have heard that it has been ready to be released. OMG also fit in with End of Days a lot better then almost any other song on that soundtrack, and I think that is probably why it was quickly slapped on there.

Regarding Neemo's 3 types of GNR fans, I think there are more. I don't quite fit any of the 3. I think TSI was a real letdown, the whole Charles Manson thing was weak, and the bloated side of the later Get in the Ring Tour was a mistake. Reading my first post in this thread, you already know where I stand with Axl, Slash, and Duff. So what type of fan does that make me?


Younggunner totally nailed that bullshit with Axl trying to copy other bands. Everyone is influenced by something. Axl got a surge out of NIN and wanted to run with it creatively. I am cool with that. That is some of the most creative music since the 60's. Hearing that always made me hungry to hear a deeper, layered, and more driven GNR sound.

Hey neemo,  there are also people who will listen to anything by any band if good and find this current GNR the most enthralling. Me, me, me!

And OMG is my fav, Absolutely.


You might be wrong there. 
I think those people would have made that kinda pointless remarks on GNR of ?86 before the band made it.  :hihi:
And yes. To my understanding, GNR have created their own sounds but never the musical genre/style. (not yet).

It is not industrial, the closest thing to that was perhaps Oh My God, but there are some songs that won't be on the album that were this way. There will be all kinds of styles, many influences as blues, mixed in the songs. -2001

as for OMG...
Once the opportunity was presented, the song was given priority in our recording process

Or maybe he felt the band wasnt completed yet. You all fail to realize that Axl is looking to rebuild somehting not just put something together and call it GNR. And that process took place from 99 to about 2001. Thats when the members fell into place. Thats when the band was actually a band. And a band that Axl feels could represent GNr and meet its past standards...

Your wrong. You keep telling yourslef that the next gnr album was or will be OMG. That is not the case. Its oging to be a little of everything.

Influences of new genres as well as old....but in a very special gnr way......

ok maybe the words "anything that a member, past or present releases is awesome" was a bit strong.  How about "anything that a member (past or present) releases must be listened to." I agree woth you buddha master, because I listened to Izzy's first ju-ju hounds cd and didn't care for it, same with duff's 'believe in me" didn't like it. however I bought them both (no d/l's back then, man I'm old) because I wanted to hear them. 'Pawnshop guitars' and 'It's five o'clock somewhere' were both great, IMO.

But I would classify you as a type 3 fan "G'n'R"  : ok: :hihi:

ppbebe, you are definately a type 3 fan as well ;D because everything must be listened to.

personally I can't give a shit who was at fault for the messy breakup of old g'n'r I just want to hear new ,GOOD, tunes. Axl is my favorite all time singer, but man it is awesome to hear Slash play guitar again. It's too bad they can't collaborate but what can you do.

Regarding the fan thing, I am a mix of all three mentioned.

 - I personally think Axl used his force of personality to push the others out of the band because he didn't feel they could help him get where he wanted musically. This does NOT mean he's evil or dangerous. He just wanted the best for his band.

 - I though Slash was as important to the final GNR sound we got as Axl. Both men had the last word on everything. I don't blame Axl for not wanting to deal with a drug addict but at the same time I think some of Slashs woes were an outlet to combat his worries and stresses with Axls methods and mental problems. I miss them together and don't know if that will change. Their alternate style, personalities but intense and edgy friendship and 'fuck you' attitude blew me away. People say get over it but the wish always lurks.

 -  I hope both bands become massive again and realise their dreams and give us all great music.

 - I'd like to see Axl marry and have kids to be devoted to just liek Slash & Duff, he needs and deserves it.

 - I'd like to see the 5 original members make up before they die.

I'd like to hear Chinese Democracy...over and over again. I would like Axl to be vindicated. If its released, and it owns...he will be proven right.

Me neither!  : ok:
and Yeah, I listen to all and guess what! I love My world n Locomotive the best from UYI2. I'm not the biggest fan of November Rain and The Blues(which sounds completed) but am into The Garden or Don?t Cry and Riyadh(needs more work) . Well,  I?m not a typical GNR fan, I guess?

Anyway I can?t understand ppl who hate any of those musicians.
You don?t have to listen to any music you don?t like so why bother?
Music is there to amuse you not to upset you.
Life is too short to spend on such a repugnance. :no:

My fav's right now are Breakdown, Dust n bones, pretty tied up, 14 years but once and a while I find my self singing the lyrics to 'My World' I used to hate it, but, no I think it's pretty cool.  Looking back it was ahead of its time.

You hit it right on the head, If you don't like it don't fuckin' listen to it.  That's the thing that pisses me off most. When I saw Guns in Toronto, 2002, there was this asshole who screamed "Axl sucks", "bucket head sucks", "bring back Slash", "Guns n Roses is dead" and other shit like that all night, "I was like, fuck you man! why did you buy a $80 ticket if you don't like it? go home dickhead! but other than that asshole, that fucking show ruled. I'm gonna see them again (if they ever tour again that is). my hope is pretty slim for CD to be released any time soon and even if they do, what promoter or venue is gonna want to take a chance that Axl would just no-show and that a riot would happen? I know I wouldn't.

But what is your definition of vindication? I have no doubt the album will be good, but I haven't even heard it and I am sure there is not going to be a song on there that is as timeless as WTTJ, SCOM or a Paradise City type....all of which recieve tremendous airplay even still, 18 years later. WTTJ and PC in particular, which are played at some point or another during almost every sporting event played on this continent.

IMO to be vindicated, he is going to have to make a song that gets more airplay and becomes more timeless than Jungle, or have a set of songs (SCOM and NR) which places at least 2 solos in the universally accepted top 10 solos ever the way the SCOM and NR solos are. All of this is not even beginning to look at the record sales that would have to be overcome, or sold out stadium tours. The reason it would require going beyond those things to be vindicated is they are all attainable goals, as he once did have a line-up that accomplished all of those things. He has released an album that sold 15 million copies in the US alone, he has had a 2 year stadium tour. He has produced songs that are played on every rock station and sporting event in the world. If all of these things aren't accomplished in the next go around, it would have to prove that getting rid of everyone wasn't the right decision, because if they were done once, they can be done again if you produce a good enough product.

I think, if Chinese Democracy comes out, and it gets A's and 4 stars and all that shit, he will be vindicated. You can't help the douche reviewers that will write shit like "Is this album worth the wait? Probably not." But, there is nothing he can do about those type of comments.

Listen, using the Beatles example. Did it really matter that Rubber Soul was less successful then a Hard days Night? There wasnt a more successful single off of Rubber Soul either. But now looking back, that album was a turning point. And it is a great album.

CD doesnt have to have a WTTJ for it to be a gem.

If it doesn't though isn't it selling the process short to have canned a line-up that produced historical music to bring one in that releases mearly adaquet CD's? I thought that was the whole point to evolving and bringing in all new players? If one line-up produces a song like Jungle and sells a bazillion albums and sells out stadiums for 3 years, and the other is unable to reach those heights. Wouldn't that make the project a bust in the sense that you traded away a team that wins a championship to get one that gets bounced out in the conference Finals? At least intuitively I would think to make it a success you would have to at least attain if not surpass the accomplishments of the guys you're replacing. Otherwise what was the point to making the changes if you put out a product that ends up having been inferior achievement wise to the prior one?

Man, I thought I explained this with my Rubber Soul example. Being an evolution and taking the next step, might produce something very special. It could certaintly produce material deeper and more emotionally layered, then anything off Appetite. The music might be very beautiful. But it may not produce an anthem that Appetite had plenty of, but does it have to. That is something you may have to ask yourself.

I agree that just being adequate won't cut it. But it may achieve something very unique then what Appetite did. The music might mean something more too then jsut having a hit anthem.

So the whole point of evolving musically only matters if the band sells albums? GNR will not outsell old GNR. Case closed. So maybe we should chalk this new band as a failure before even hearing a note of the album.

I could care less if 10 yr old boys n girls like GNR/CD. As long as the music is better than what is out there and is on the same level as old gnr in the context of the world as it it today who gives a fuck. ILl be one happy camper.

In order for GNr to roll out of the gate quickly they need an anthem type song. Supoosedely they have a few of those in the cards. We SHall see.


Um, not really. Since you want to make it as a sports comparison...let me help you out.

Axl "cleaned out"{which he didnt but we iwll go by ur theory} the old team because they werent working together as a team anymore. One player wanted to keep the same team and formula going because it worked the other wanted to mix it up and try some different things....

He didnt "clean house" because he wanted to outdue the old as you keep saying. So your whole argument is pretty silly.

This is music not sports. ?Its not cut n dry.

If you are going to measure whether the new band is a failure purely on numbers...ill tell you write now being the prophet that you are ...you will be proven right. : ok:

Of course its natural and totally fair to compare the old and new. NO problem there. BUt it has to be done on the musical side. ANd not whether "Suckerpunched" sounds liek it could come right off of AFD....or how it compares to WTTJ...you have to take the new songs and view them in the context of the world it is today.

As long as the gnr spirit and ferocity is captured in the new album like the old band then i think its a success...musically....as for the numbers game...If GNR are not crowned king of the rock genre then ill listen to your argument. BUt as for the music world in general...its an uphill battle.....rap is in not rock...

lets hope it's not that bad :hihi:

because its not an even playing field  : ok:

Sales are very important to see if the album itself is a bomb or not because there is countless money involved..  It doesn't matter for a fan,just the record company.. ALso it matters to anyone that support this stuff where they say it could be as good or better then afd, illusions 1-2//

Being it took forever and is still taking time I would want nothing less then it to be number one and some big time success.. Success can be measured in several ways, album sales mean people outside of the old fan base are actually liking the music..

ANyways I doubt all this time and effort would be put into this project to not look for big sales and long tours.. It's a new band there's things to prove in regards to keeping the name alive and things like that..

I guess if it doesn't do the best in the world or axl screws up missing shows the new guys always have their solo gigs until the NEXT album comes around..

yay,  : ok: if it sells well and the music is bad, it's not a success 4 me

maybe just 4 the record company and some others...

And there must have been tons of old time fans who loved the pop-era Beatles and hated post-Rubber Soul Beatles.

Yesterday, Twist and Shout, Hard days Night.....

Sweet Child O?Mine, Welcome to The jungle, Paradise City...... :confused:

I only mentioned it because success can be measured in several ways depending on who you are (fan, geffen, promoters, etc)

If axl walks out of his house today and someone takes his picture it's a bit of success to me just to see the dude is ok.. Having the album good or bad is a success for me being a fan because of the wait, but poor sales and a possible short tour or sopmething would be devistating to the promoters n geffen, they have lots of money invested so if the album doesn't do great or the tour doesn't go well it is not only a let down to the promoters but the fans as well, it could ruin everything..

After all teh years and lineupo switches and carrying the gnr namer anything but near perfection in all aspects could be considered soemwhat of a failure.. A few million copies sold, long tour, videos, single, and things of that nature would make everything a success.. If axl released it and didn't hang around for a while it would be a let down, we aren't just waiting for a n album, we want to see the band do well..

You could be a person that couild care less what they do as long as they give out an album...


I agree though, for me as a fan if the album is good but doesn't sell well it's a bonus for me, but I do want to enjoy all the benefits as a fan that comes from a good album, especially with axl.. :yes:

observation changed better. cd has no ending. no risk, just fun

Yeah, they just gotta go out and say:

do you know who the fuck we are? we're gunsroses time to fuckin die

Little tired this morning, explain that a little better so I'm sure I get the info you posted..

Yea but umm, that's not the point. The point is, is that using what the Beatles did helps illustrate what Axl seems to be doing. The idea of progression as opposed to remaining stagnate.

His progression is amazing not one album since 98 when the new band began...Talk about being stagnate... :hihi:

chronic snooze disease ::)

I love the old GNR and like VR also, but looking forward to the new GNR because Axl is a true artist and I think he`s gonna surprise us all. Growing as an artist and moving GNR forward is exciting.

Just wish he`d release the damn album already.

live n' let die dude,

im not anti old band, i just dont like the way there goin' on about things with the past, the new stuff is the best thing i've heard in ages n' the new band is just unfuckingbeleivable!!!!

I feel we should support the currentline up of gnr mike liuga or whatever your name is.  if you dont want to then i dont get why you'd even be on a guns n roses fan forum  ::)

the old band is history, guns n roses is TODAY.  the rest of those guys left the band and from that we have a really cool new band that has great chemistry, awesome potential, and has recorded whats supposed to be GnR's Led Zepplin II.. if we ever see it

my hatred towards the old members come from them talking shit, sucking since they left gnr (snakepit SUCKS), and that lawsuit.  Axl owns.

they have : ok:
 can't wait  to listen, it's very intrestin what they could cme up with

especially when you have chris and buckethead on it, haven't heard stuff from such a formation b4

Actually, you and many people haven't accepted the new band. You people complain that many of the bunch that likes the new band are just "yes-man," but that isn't true. There are some people that really thinks that this new band is way better than the old, but it's their opinion.
You "VR people" think that we should love both bands, but you just come on here and complain:
-Like this band is finished.
-This guy(Robin) is not Rock and Roll. What does he have to do? Go to Colombia and have a huge amount of drugs, wear leather pants, smoke cigarrettes while playing guitar, be drunk as hell while playing.
-When this guy comes and posts that this band has magic and to see go watch the MSG concert,? you come and post that this is bullshit, that if you want to see magic go to see ritz, you see that guy is not knocking the old band, just supporting the new one, but you post to make trouble.
-That the album (if it comes) is going to be overproduced. Overproduced is just a word that means nothing. Axl is trying to be an "artist" not just a RnR singer. Artists deliver when they think that their art is ready not before.
-That I made Axl rich, so he owe me the album. Maybe you make rich the record company, not Axl, since for each album sold "Guns N' Roses - the entity" earns two dollars from which you have to divided to the entire old band. But , you still come and say that you made "only rich to Axl."
-That all the music is techno like "Oh My God." I don't think that all what GNR produced is techno, Also when some people where saying that OMG was/is a good song, only "DAVE" was saying that is better that all Contraband. And then one of you and says that OMG is "a electronic fart." Sorry but you could have said that you don't like the song because is not your style of music.
(We all know Dave)
-That Axl is a washed up artist. What did he do to be a washed up artist. Did he perform with Michael Jackson, Britney Spears and all those artists from today that suck so bad?

For all of this and more I know that many of you live on the past and not are going to accept this new band even if becomes a great album, or the guitars players create great riffs or solos because they are not RnR.

And "in my opinion" all the people, that think that Contraband is one of the great RnR records, they are wrong. Not because they deliver me something, I have to praise them. When you said that "Audioslave record (which IMHO is better)" is too radio friendly what you can say about Contraband. Not good solos, like Suckertain. It has few good songs only. And awful lyrics. Like this guy that post that the phrase "I'm going to rape my worm abortion tape so please deliver me the cow" is dangerous, well what can I say. I hope that Slash and co. can deliver me on their next album a better record, because they can.

Let the music speak when/if it comes. And trust me if CD is good I'm going to post why in my opinion is good; and, if it's bad, I'm also going to state why in my opinion is bad. Most importantly, I would NEVER going to tell you that you have to listen CD more times to appreciate it.

and like RATM "if ignorance is bliss, then knock that smile of my face."? :peace:? :smoking:? :peace:

  Prepair to love the new guys, if Axl picked them, there dues have been paid and we're not
  talkin cash. Understanding an artist is tuff, I respect VR, there a machine but Axl Rose is a ture   
  artist/conductor. Sorry if that hurts anyone or dose'nt answer your questions. Not bash anyone.
  Those big questions will be answered soon. Enjoy your holidays and have faith.     

Sorry this is a late quotation of this, but I just gotta say, HELL FUCKIN YEA!!! I also both hate and love Slash and Duff. Hate for what assholes they've been and not wanting to move forward and to be like AC/DC and make all their albums the same (no disrespect to AC/DC, they're great, but face it, their albums DO all sound very similar...), and love for the music that happened when they were in the band. I bought Contraband because I wanted to see if it would be anything like a Gn'R album (even though I knew deep down it wouldn't be), and it was nothing like one! What the fuck happened to the amazing guitar solos!?? And what is with Duff only having minimal back up vocals!? They've just all regressed terribly, and there is nothing there that really grabs you and smashes your face into the wall like how any Gn'R song did. It would seem that Scott Weiland HAS moved on from what he used to be, but at the same time, he's going about it the wrong way. He has no vision. He's just trying to be Axl back in the time of Appetite. And there's nothing wrong with that if you like cheap imitations, but if he really wants to be like Axl, then he should fucking get himself a vision to work towards because ATM, he's nothing.
If VR started up back in 1985, without Axl, you can guarantee that they'd be in the same position as Faster Pussycat and Cinderella. Not of the same calibre as Gn'R. Lack of vision guarantees lack of fans.
That's why Contraband was such a disappointment.
I'm not even going to say anything about Sorum, except to state that he's an idiot with the same dependence on staying the same as Slash and Duff, and that he should be executed for what he said in Gn'R: Behind the Music. That thing he said "I thought I was joining a heavy metal band! What's with the piano?" Grrrrrrrrrrr *falls over twitching on floor while gritting teeth and imagining the death of Sorum*

why am I going to buy "Chinese Democracy" and have not bought "Contraband"?
Because Axl Rose is more appealing to me as an artist. I would buy Chinese Democracy even if it's not published under the name GNR. Look at the band at 2002. it is just a totally crazy group of individuals, everybody coming with different music background and thats the reason Axl picked them up. He didn't say: Oh my good, look at that freak with the bucket on his hand. He will never be a member of my band. Axl picked up Buchethead because he knwos what means talent and he doesn't give a fuck if Robin looks like a fucking goth.

On the other hand you got Velvet Revolver. Rock and Roll. My rock and roll time is over (if i ever had one). i now search fpr more complex and different music. Axl seems to fit right in my music progress.