Chinese democracy

[PermissionToLand]

I just wish it had fewer songs. If The World, Scraped, Shackler's Revenge and Riad N' The Bedouins aren't as good as the rest of the songs. If they had taken those out, the album would have 10 songs and it surely would be a classic.

If The World is one of the best songs on the album. That funky '70s cop movie jam is my shit. Reminds me of playing classic Driver videogames.

It's also easy to pick out short classic albums and ignore crummy short albums. The length of the album has no bearing on the quality. The number of good songs you have is the number you have.

- Production: it's way overproduced

I rarely see anyone specify how exactly it's "overproduced". I don't find the soundscape terribly cluttered, most of the extra layers are buried in the mix anyway.

Problem is, you will never hear anyone but a GNR diehard praise this as some masterpiece.

Bear with me here.

Take some other band.  One you know of, perhaps like some of their stuff.  At the very least, you know what they are about.

Now, when a new album comes out, factor in :

- the singer is the only one left
- the original replacement band that he recruited to play on it have mostly since been replaced again by the time of release
- the songs sound very little like what you know of the past work of the band
- it took the singer literally 10 years to get this all together

Now, and be honest, if faced with all that, and you are assured by a superfan of that band that it's just genius...what do you think?

Option A : This guy nails it.

Option B : This guy is a superfan and not the least bit objective.  And I have to think he would not give other bands such an incredible benefit of the doubt with all these factors.

I am Option B.  I make no bones about this.  I also think 99% of the planet would be with me on Option B.

I have an incredibly hard time...nah, scratch that.  I have an absolute *impossible time* seeing anyone around here lavishing such praise on a "Metallica" album that was James Hetfield and a bunch of dudes.  Or a "Pearl Jam" album that was Eddie Vedder and a bunch of randos.

The problem is that you can't imagine anyone else being less closed-minded than you. A lot of AC/DC fans straight up HATE Axl having worked with them, to this day. I however, would have loved nothing more than to hear what a collaborative writing project between them would sound like.

In fact, I was more open to the industrial style BECAUSE it was Axl doing it. To this day, I've never really listened to NIN and don't really have much urge to, but I really dig CD.

Also, since when is the "objective" frame of reference for music the mainstream listener? Mainstream listeners have just as many biases as fans do, they're simply different biases. Industrial metal was never all that big in the mainstream, and by the time CD came out, it's moment in the sun was largely over.

[bicycle handgrenade]

when a new album comes out, factor in :

- the singer is the only one left

Chinese Democracy was written and recorded by half of the '94 GNR line-up.

[ITARocker]

It’s a one man studio project.

It really isn't though. The final line-up of the "classic era" GNR was Axl, Slash, Duff, Dizzy, Matt and Paul. Half of that line-up went on to write and record Chinese Democracy, with the others replaced along the way. The narrative that Axl went solo simply isn't true. Paul and Dizzy did a lot of the writing.

Im not talking about that, i'm talking about that it doesn't sound a "band" product at all... You can hear it's a meltin pots of sounds, cut copy past of solos pieces of music etc where the maestro has the last word on everything... Plus it's overproduced cause they had so many tracks that they didnt want to leave out so you have this big wall of sound and at the end of the days you can mainly listen to axl's voice (which sounds better in the demos in any case) and the drums. Listen to hard school and absurd now, how the tracks sound tight (apart from axl's voice in absurd, but it's a choice) when they are fully reworked by the same people. It's all another animal.

[jarmo]

Is Use Your Illusion overproduced" compared to GN'R Lies? Is Appetite For destruction overproduced compared to Live Like A Suicide?

Overproduced is like an empty word people throw out when they can't think of anything else.


Too many guitar players makes it overproduced? So having one guy play all guitar parts would've made it... not overproduced?
Too industrial? Doesn't sound like Ministry to me...

I get that it's not for everyone, just like Absurd, but looking for faults.... Either you like it or you don't. Not liking it because "it's not GN'R" seems like a lame excuse.





/jarmo

[ITARocker]

Is Use Your Illusion overproduced" compared to GN'R Lies? Is Appetite For destruction overproduced compared to Live Like A Suicide?

Overproduced is like an empty word people throw out when they can't think of anything else.


Too many guitar players makes it overproduced? So having one guy play all guitar parts would've made it... not overproduced?
Too industrial? Doesn't sound like Ministry to me...

I get that it's not for everyone, just like Absurd, but looking for faults.... Either you like it or you don't. Not liking it because "it's not GN'R" seems like a lame excuse.





/jarmo

Lies Afd and UYI are not overproduced at all. Simple tracks thought and played by 6 people only. You can say uyi it's a little bit pompous because of NR and estranged but that's it. It's just a change of the musical direction. When u have 5000 people involved in the writing - playing - mixing  process well you can say it's a little bit overproduced.  Listenin to the tracks  if u are a composer or a musician you can hear it.  But you know we already talked about this many times so i stop here.

[jarmo]

Six people? People who weren't in the band played and sang on those albums. There's synthesizers on AFD, there's sound effects on UYI.

UYI sounds different to AFD, which sounds different to CD.

Basically, they all sound like they are supposed to sound. You prefer something basic, something simpler. That's fine.

Overproduced is just one of those meaningless words people like to throw around because they like a plain cheese pizza instead of one with four cheeses... Doesn't mean the latter one is overproduced...






/jarmo

[DeN]

reminds me Axl & Duff interviewed about the reunion, talking a bit
about Chinese Democracy where Axl said in a laugh "a lot of layers..." 

[PermissionToLand]

Im not talking about that, i'm talking about that it doesn't sound a "band" product at all... You can hear it's a meltin pots of sounds, cut copy past of solos pieces of music etc where the maestro has the last word on everything... Plus it's overproduced cause they had so many tracks that they didnt want to leave out so you have this big wall of sound and at the end of the days you can mainly listen to axl's voice (which sounds better in the demos in any case) and the drums. Listen to hard school and absurd now, how the tracks sound tight (apart from axl's voice in absurd, but it's a choice) when they are fully reworked by the same people. It's all another animal

Damn, you can hear who has the last word on everything? Impressive.

The placebo effect and groupthink are strong effects. Nobody would call Paradise City "bloated" because it has multiple layered vocals, a synth and a long intro. But because CD has an electronic intro, that somehow makes it "bloated". Give me a break.

People rave over the demos, but in most cases they really aren't very different from the final product. The demos have lots of layers of instrumentation as well.

[PermissionToLand]

Lies Afd and UYI are not overproduced at all. Simple tracks thought and played by 6 people only. You can say uyi it's a little bit pompous because of NR and estranged but that's it. It's just a change of the musical direction.

Holy schnikes, SIX people?!?!?! Any band bigger than a four-piece is just a bloated rotting whale carcass about to burst! 

I love the arbitrary distinctions for when something becomes "overproduced" or "bloated". Funny, nobody ever accused Lynyrd Skynyrd of being bloated despite having a busload of people onstage at once... nor Bob Marley...

When u have 5000 people involved in the writing - playing - mixing  process well you can say it's a little bit overproduced.  Listenin to the tracks  if u are a composer or a musician you can hear it.

Writing and playing have nothing to do with production. Pretty comical that you attempt to claim authority by being a musician after saying that...

[kunzerd]

It’s my second favorite GNR album.

And I think I can say I come at this not as a diehard gnr fan, because for me UYI should’ve been one album because half of it is filler. (You can hear the compromises made to get every members favorite songs on there)

CD has some epic songs, it’s not a front to back masterpiece, there’s two or three songs I probably skip over now, but there’s a ton of great emotional hooks in there. I don’t want a band to just put out continuous albums of  ‘stones style blues rock, and I’m totally fine with experimenting in different sand boxes.

If I had two critiques I’d say sometimes a change in a song comes out of left field and there might be a couple too many vocal harmonies layered in, but who am I to complain, someone created theyre art and sent out into the wild, if I have a problem with it I could always ignore it, or make my own damn album.

[DAVE ROCK]

Six people? People who weren't in the band played and sang on those albums. There's synthesizers on AFD, there's sound effects on UYI.

UYI sounds different to AFD, which sounds different to CD.

Basically, they all sound like they are supposed to sound. You prefer something basic, something simpler. That's fine.

Overproduced is just one of those meaningless words people like to throw around because they like a plain cheese pizza instead of one with four cheeses... Doesn't mean the latter one is overproduced...






/jarmo

Sometimes I think that Jarmo is only a character and he is in fact Axl himself 

Take it easy man

[AdZ]

but who am I to complain, someone created theyre art and sent out into the wild, if I have a problem with it I could always ignore it, or make my own damn album.

At least someone gets it.

[rebelhipi]

Overproduced is just one of those meaningless words people like to throw around because they like a plain cheese pizza instead of one with four cheeses... Doesn't mean the latter one is overproduced...






/jarmo

Agreed. Its just a matter of taste.
Take Let It Be for example. The popular opinion is that its overproduced by Phil Spector. But still the original ''overproduced'' Let It Be mix is way more popular than the Let It Be Naked version that is a more stripped down version.

[C0ma]

Overproduced is like an empty word people throw out when they can't think of anything else.
/jarmo

What "over produced" as it relates to this album means to me is: Axl for the most part with Josh Freese, Paul, and a few others into the Fink, Brain,  and Buckethead time frame had essentially written "as Axl stated" 3 albums worth of material. Most of it had at a minimum been recorded instrumentally based on stories by Brain and the recent podcast appearance by Josh. They began shopping or trying out several engineers/producers for the project. They (if you believe the stories) would present the material to the label and the results whether in the mind of Axl or the Label weren't good enough. Members continue to enter and exit the band, producers as well. BUT random contributions are left behind and spliced in.

I truly believe that there was a point in that 1997-2001 time frame where Axl was happy with what he had, but the label wasn't and sent him back to the drawing board, so from that point forward I think the tracks that we've heard since 2001-2005 were Axl's vision, what we got were "tweaked" because he was forced to create a product that the label thought they could sell, then eventually just try and recoup some money.

So while I think "guitar parts" in general do not make a song cluttered, there are points where on CD to my ear there are layers that are lost or muddy portions of the song. I think it even carried over to how Absurd was released... there is a cut and paste feel to it, and that I think goes to the "Over Engineering" because they are trying to deconstruct a song, then piece is back together with new tracks and retaining old tracks. Then splicing in parts of the already recorded vocals... that is very clear in the transition from "more than you deserve" to "Screaming fucking banshee" you literally cannot sing that, he is saying screaming before deserve is over.

So going back to CD...  think that fact that so many hand touched these tracks from say 1997-2008 there were parts removed, parts added, players removed, players added, etc... it isn't always smooth... having said all that I was happy that I got it in 2008, and I am ecstatic I got Absurd and Harskool in 2021... With CD I just feel there is a version somewhere in all of those changes that was Axl's real vision and I think it got steamrolled by "the industry". I really love the fact that the surviving Beatles were able to remove the "wall of sound" from Let it Be and got back to the original intent of the songs, and would Axl's version of that...

[D-GenerationX]

The problem is that you can't imagine anyone else being less closed-minded than you. A lot of AC/DC fans straight up HATE Axl having worked with them, to this day. I however, would have loved nothing more than to hear what a collaborative writing project between them would sound like.

Me too.  But we are huge Axl fans.

And besides, that is *their* band.  How jazzed would we be to hear someone else singing with GNR?

[(t)]

I never even knew there was more than one version of Let It Be.

[PermissionToLand]

Me too.  But we are huge Axl fans.

And besides, that is *their* band.  How jazzed would we be to hear someone else singing with GNR?

I was an AC/DC fan before I was a GNR fan.

How jazzed I would be would depend on who it is. If Axl were in Brian's shoes and lost his hearing, I'd have no problem if some talented singer from another legendary rock band stepped in. I'd think that's a once in a lifetime chance to see.

The point is, I'd argue that the general public is more open to bands changing than the diehard fans. It's the diehards who will even write off the coming new material because Izzy wasn't involved. Anything short of a full AFD reunion isn't good enough for some. But the majority of the public don't care.

[jarmo]

So going back to CD...  think that fact that so many hand touched these tracks from say 1997-2008 there were parts removed, parts added, players removed, players added, etc... it isn't always smooth... having said all that I was happy that I got it in 2008, and I am ecstatic I got Absurd and Harskool in 2021... With CD I just feel there is a version somewhere in all of those changes that was Axl's real vision and I think it got steamrolled by "the industry". I really love the fact that the surviving Beatles were able to remove the "wall of sound" from Let it Be and got back to the original intent of the songs, and would Axl's version of that...

I understand what you're saying, but I don't know if I agree that it somehow makes it "overproduced".

If you like your steak well done, and someone else likes theirs medium. Is yours overproduced?

Of course not.... 


In the case of the album, I think they used the best tracks they had to make the songs sound like they were supposed to. It just happened to be multiple musicians who had contributed those tracks. Not just one or two guitar players like GN'R fans were used to.




/jarmo

[ITARocker]

Overproduced is like an empty word people throw out when they can't think of anything else.
/jarmo

So going back to CD...  think that fact that so many hand touched these tracks from say 1997-2008 there were parts removed, parts added, players removed, players added, etc... it isn't always smooth...

Exactly. A very banal example for a very banal guitar part: think about the guitar slide down during the break in better,,, Attached after years, it doesnt add anything to the song and u can hear it's completely out of the mix (And i remember bumble laughing at the fact that the leaked version of better would have been the final track..."never played on that track"...So his guitar slide down was probably taken from another "better" track where he probably plays a different guitar too). You can hear  a lot of this  things.

I like almost all the songs in it, but the only final recorded version i like is sorry

[reayj2003]

So going back to CD...  think that fact that so many hand touched these tracks from say 1997-2008 there were parts removed, parts added, players removed, players added, etc... it isn't always smooth... having said all that I was happy that I got it in 2008, and I am ecstatic I got Absurd and Harskool in 2021... With CD I just feel there is a version somewhere in all of those changes that was Axl's real vision and I think it got steamrolled by "the industry". I really love the fact that the surviving Beatles were able to remove the "wall of sound" from Let it Be and got back to the original intent of the songs, and would Axl's version of that...

I understand what you're saying, but I don't know if I agree that it somehow makes it "overproduced".

If you like your steak well done, and someone else likes theirs medium. Is yours overproduced?

Of course not.... 


In the case of the album, I think they used the best tracks they had to make the songs sound like they were supposed to. It just happened to be multiple musicians who had contributed those tracks. Not just one or two guitar players like GN'R fans were used to.




/jarmo

The steak would be over cooked! 😂