The Biden administration (was: The NEW 2020 Election Thread)

[pilferk]

What's the point of a debate against a guy who lies and lies?

You present facts, and it's countered with "you're slow", "you hate America", "you're a radical socialist"....


Debates are only useful if people taking part can take in information, and present a counter argument based on what was said. It's not a yelling match where the aim is to insult the other guy. Which is the way of the Repub... Trump party nowadays.

Nowadays you don't even need a debate for people to be yelling alone at a camera and calling it a speech.


180000 people are dead in the USA, and the best is yet to come.... Wow!




/jarmo

The debates should happen. They are part of the process.

What happens during them likely wont matter.

Trump will lie and lie some more...he has, consistently. And his voters won't care. They will vote for him anyway. You could have a wholly independent fact checker out there, agreed on by both sides, and by the end Trump voters would be screaming bias, fake facts, and saying the fix was in.

On the other side,  no matter how Biden performs, Trumps voters will either move the goal posts afterwards or declare victory (even of its unwarranted). And they will vote for Trump either way, making it irrelevant, since their judgement of Bidens mental health is all a bad faith way to make excuses or disenfanchise voters. The objection isnt earnest or principaled or based on any actual evidence. Its just an excuse, and a talking point. I mean, you have seen that play out before your very eyes.

These debates, unfortunately, wont be about policy. Not really. They will likely discuss policy, but thats not really what they will be about.

In the end, I dont think there are a ton of undecided voters this time. We will see in the next couple months.

[tim_m]

I agree, this time most have already decided their candidate. All polls I'm seeing the undecided voters are around 3.3%.

[PermissionToLand]

YOU take all that personally. I don't know why...I suspect maybe it has something to do with the fact that, when I hold the mirror up, it makes you uncomfortable with your positions and opinions (though I have no doubt you will never admit it).  I suspect you feel rather scalded by that, and my writing style.  But for whatever the reason, you see things like pointing out juvenile debate tactics, and "just to put your little heart at ease" as somehow perjoratives that cause you grave injury. Or harkening back to you criticizing my writing style for length as heinous haymakers that leave grevious injury on your soul. At this point, I'm pretty sure you'd be offended by "Bless your heart". That's not a dig or me being condescending. It's the gods honest truth.

To be fair, it must be incredibly triggering to get eviscerated the way you destroy shoddy logic in here. I would have sympathy if they had the principles to be able to say "hey, you make a good point" instead of constantly playing rhetorical games.

The derogatory comments and telling me what I think are where the problem lies.

He'll never explain how you've supposedly misrepresented his point, Pilferk. It's all about slinging mud and accusations. Substance is irrelevant.

[PermissionToLand]

If all Trump did was lie at a debate, it would reflect very badly on him.

Oh, how quaint. No, the problem with televised debates has always been that aesthetics become elevated over substance. Nobody is fact checking you in the moment, and you can spit out lies 10X faster than your opponent can debunk them, which also takes up the time allotted to get out their own message.

[tim_m]

Trump proclaiming he will get things made in America again to a bunch of people wearing his merchandise made in China. You literally can't make this bullshit up.

[cineater]

Trump proclaiming he will get things made in America again to a bunch of people wearing his merchandise made in China. You literally can't make this bullshit up.

I would have liked him to talk about retraining the workforce towards more technology.  It's great to say more blacks and women have jobs but what kind of jobs do they have?  There's still big pay discrepancies among the races and the sexes.

It's great to have a good economy but he seems to want to rebuild one that existed in the past.  I think both parties have missed the gains in this pandemic that are changing how we do business and how we are living.  They don't see the empty office spaces coming, the online take over of shopping, the refocus on the home.

[tim_m]

Trump proclaiming he will get things made in America again to a bunch of people wearing his merchandise made in China. You literally can't make this bullshit up.

I would have liked him to talk about retraining the workforce towards more technology.  It's great to say more blacks and women have jobs but what kind of jobs do they have?  There's still big pay discrepancies among the races and the sexes.

It's great to have a good economy but he seems to want to rebuild one that existed in the past.  I think both parties have missed the gains in this pandemic that are changing how we do business and how we are living.  They don't see the empty office spaces coming, the online take over of shopping, the refocus on the home.

Yep income inequality gap is a huge problem At least Biden is actually talking about doing something about it. I hope he can if he wins. Trump has completely ignored it entirely

Agreed, we have a huge opportunity thanks to covid-19 to reimagine the workforce, our education, healthcare system etc. We need to go for it.

[jarmo]

Presidential debates are considered an essential part of the election process. We learn a lot about a candidate as it takes them out of a scripted environment and we get to see how they think as well as get some answers to questions on a subject a candidate may not have discussed  previously or has intentionally avoided talking about. We also get to see how they handle themselves face to face with their opponent.

If all Trump did was lie at a debate, it would reflect very badly on him.  The criticism of Biden of course is that he is no longer mentally sharp enough to perform the duties of a President. If he withdraws from the debates that will only add fuel to that fire. 

I'm sure they are an essential part. In normal cases.

You think hovering behind the other candidate is normal?


There should be debates, they should be socially distanced and it would be great if they were fact checked in real time.



 


/jarmo

[pilferk]

YOU take all that personally. I don't know why...I suspect maybe it has something to do with the fact that, when I hold the mirror up, it makes you uncomfortable with your positions and opinions (though I have no doubt you will never admit it).  I suspect you feel rather scalded by that, and my writing style.  But for whatever the reason, you see things like pointing out juvenile debate tactics, and "just to put your little heart at ease" as somehow perjoratives that cause you grave injury. Or harkening back to you criticizing my writing style for length as heinous haymakers that leave grevious injury on your soul. At this point, I'm pretty sure you'd be offended by "Bless your heart". That's not a dig or me being condescending. It's the gods honest truth.

To be fair, it must be incredibly triggering to get eviscerated the way you destroy shoddy logic in here. I would have sympathy if they had the principles to be able to say "hey, you make a good point" instead of constantly playing rhetorical games.

The derogatory comments and telling me what I think are where the problem lies.

He'll never explain how you've supposedly misrepresented his point, Pilferk. It's all about slinging mud and accusations. Substance is irrelevant.

I'll leave the judgement on the "effectiveness" of my posts to others reading and posterity.  I'd say I feel like I do pretty well. Maybe you're right....

He constantly tells me that I tell him what he thinks, which is bullshit.  I take what he gives, in his words.  If his words are not representative of his actual thoughts and feelings...that's on him.  It's his responsibility to make sure his words accurately reflect his point of view.  And to clarify if they don't.  You will notice I OFTEN ask him if he's sure that's what he actually means.  And he rarely clarifies.  What else are we to assume?

[cineater]

Trump proclaiming he will get things made in America again to a bunch of people wearing his merchandise made in China. You literally can't make this bullshit up.

I would have liked him to talk about retraining the workforce towards more technology.  It's great to say more blacks and women have jobs but what kind of jobs do they have?  There's still big pay discrepancies among the races and the sexes.

It's great to have a good economy but he seems to want to rebuild one that existed in the past.  I think both parties have missed the gains in this pandemic that are changing how we do business and how we are living.  They don't see the empty office spaces coming, the online take over of shopping, the refocus on the home.

Yep income inequality gap is a huge problem At least Biden is actually talking about doing something about it. I hope he can if he wins. Trump has completely ignored it entirely

Agreed, we have a huge opportunity thanks to covid-19 to reimagine the workforce, our education, healthcare system etc. We need to go for it.

I think so too.  Reimagine it all.  I think people are beginning to see a different life for them.  I think there are big changes coming like the industrial revolution brought on.

Trump did say something about building a 5G system, if I got that right.  I hate to be an ageist but we need to get these really old folks out of office who are hell bent on doing it the way it has always been done.  We need the Amazon guy or his type to run.

[jarmo]

The best is yet to come.

What's happening in select cities now (during Trump's own reign) is the America you'll get with Biden.


Amazing scare tactics that just point out how much they have failed in regards to their slogan. Did Mexico pay for the wall yet? When is the grand opening? Why are people still dying of a virus that just disappeared last spring?





/jarmo

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Presidential debates are considered an essential part of the election process. We learn a lot about a candidate as it takes them out of a scripted environment and we get to see how they think as well as get some answers to questions on a subject a candidate may not have discussed  previously or has intentionally avoided talking about. We also get to see how they handle themselves face to face with their opponent.

If all Trump did was lie at a debate, it would reflect very badly on him.  The criticism of Biden of course is that he is no longer mentally sharp enough to perform the duties of a President. If he withdraws from the debates that will only add fuel to that fire. 

I'm sure they are an essential part. In normal cases.

You think hovering behind the other candidate is normal?


There should be debates, they should be socially distanced and it would be great if they were fact checked in real time.



 


/jarmo

Trump hovering around Hillary was a bit weird. So was Gore getting real close to Bush in 2000.  Hopefully Joe doesn't sniff anyone's hair.   

Question is, who does the fact checking? Can't even rely on that anymore. Remember Candy Crowley in 2012?


Crowley fact-checks Mitt
https://www.politico.com/story/2012/10/seeking-control-crowley-fact-checks-mitt-082512

 That’s when Crowley jumped in, attempting to fact-check a candidate for the first and only time during the debate.

“He did, in fact, sir,” she told Romney. “So let me call it an act of terror …”

“Can you say that a little louder, Candy?” Obama asked.

“He did call it an act of terror,” Crowley said, but clarified: “It did as well take two weeks or so for the whole idea of there being a riot out there about this tape to come out. You are correct about that.”

...

After the debate, even Crowley seemed to acknowledge that she had erred. Romney was “right in the main” but “picked the wrong word,” she said on CNN.

[jarmo]

You're all out of objective journalists in the US? Everyone is either biased or a conspiracy theorist Trump defender?


For example, if Trump says: We have medication to treat Covid-19. It's false.

If Biden says: I think Trump has single-handedly ended all wars in the world and saved the USA from socialism. It's false.




/jarmo

[PermissionToLand]

I'll leave the judgement on the "effectiveness" of my posts to others reading and posterity.  I'd say I feel like I do pretty well. Maybe you're right....

He constantly tells me that I tell him what he thinks, which is bullshit.  I take what he gives, in his words.  If his words are not representative of his actual thoughts and feelings...that's on him.  It's his responsibility to make sure his words accurately reflect his point of view.  And to clarify if they don't.  You will notice I OFTEN ask him if he's sure that's what he actually means.  And he rarely clarifies.  What else are we to assume?

Deliberate vagueness is part of the game, of course. If you never want to take personal responsibility for your positions and statements, you make sure to only ever imply your real point and never explicitly claim anything you can be nailed down on.

[PermissionToLand]

We need the Amazon guy or his type to run.

Dear God, no! Please tell me that was a joke...

[cineater]

You're all out of objective journalists in the US?

/jarmo

Yes we are.  Journalism without a twist and spin, entertainment doesn't sell.  Journalist who can't sell the news have no place to report.  Our newspapers and magazines are almost gone.  It's all about ratings and number of hits.  It's not about bias and conspiracy, it's about selling the news.  Take a side and entertain it up.

[cineater]

We need the Amazon guy or his type to run.

Dear God, no! Please tell me that was a joke...

No it wasn't.  I doubt you'd get him to leave his business but a person like him.  Somebody who looks into the future and how it could be and goes for it.  Somebody who doesn't do it the way it has always been done.  Takes what we have and reworks it into something better.  Experience counts but our career politicians need to go.

[tim_m]

The best is yet to come.

What's happening in select cities now (during Trump's own reign) is the America you'll get with Biden.


Amazing scare tactics that just point out how much they have failed in regards to their slogan. Did Mexico pay for the wall yet? When is the grand opening? Why are people still dying of a virus that just disappeared last spring?





/jarmo
Pence even kept saying Make America Great again. Wasn't that the point of the first term? Are we not great again yet?

[tim_m]

We need the Amazon guy or his type to run.

Dear God, no! Please tell me that was a joke...

No it wasn't.  I doubt you'd get him to leave his business but a person like him.  Somebody who looks into the future and how it could be and goes for it.  Somebody who doesn't do it the way it has always been done.  Takes what we have and reworks it into something better.  Experience counts but our career politicians need to go.

That's what we're trying now and its been an abject failure.

[PermissionToLand]

You're all out of objective journalists in the US?

Yes we are.  Journalism without a twist and spin, entertainment doesn't sell.  Journalist who can't sell the news have no place to report.  Our newspapers and magazines are almost gone.  It's all about ratings and number of hits.  It's not about bias and conspiracy, it's about selling the news.  Take a side and entertain it up.

First of all, no, we have Reuters and Associated Press if you want pure recitation of facts. Second, simply taking a stance is not a bad thing. For example, when it comes to sex trafficking, I would not call somebody refusing to take a stance against it neutral. The same goes for Fascism. Likewise, if a political leader is ringing every single alarm bell of Fascist ideology, you would not be impartial to ignore that and refuse to point it out.

Simply put, the idea that one can never take a stance on any issue without being a partisan hack is absurd (to be clear, I'm not saying you are necessarily suggesting that). Unfortunately, the truth does not actually just so happen to lie in the middle all the time. Sometimes one side is just outright lying and needs to be called out. That does not make you partisan.

That said, I agree the entertainment-ization of news is a bad thing. It's largely caused by the drive for news to make a profit, which is an effect of news agencies being privately owned for-profit corporations. Again, this ties into my point because pointing that fact out gets you called a partisan.

Dear God, no! Please tell me that was a joke...

No it wasn't.  I doubt you'd get him to leave his business but a person like him.  Somebody who looks into the future and how it could be and goes for it.  Somebody who doesn't do it the way it has always been done.  Takes what we have and reworks it into something better.  Experience counts but our career politicians need to go.

He looks into the future and sees ways technology can increase his profits and replace workers so he can abandon them altogether. He looks into the future and finds new ways to engage in predatory pricing schemes to eliminate competitors.

In reality, he is very much "doing it the way it was always done". Predatory pricing schemes go back to the Gilded Age of robber barons. Nothing he's done is new. And we need to abandon this assumption that any kind of "innovation" or "disruption" has a net benefit effect on society. I really don't have the energy to get further into this right now.