The Biden administration (was: The NEW 2020 Election Thread)

[PermissionToLand]

Hang on, are we bring our founding fathers into this?  Great men of their times and they had wisdom to bring into our times.  But they were all white men and excluded women, minorities and I believe you had to be a property owner at that time to vote.  Property including slaves.

What is this comment? What is your point? Did you not tell me that you don't believe in "identity politics"?

The quote I gave you was literally them defending the rights of minorities. Does that not fall into the category of "wisdom to bring into our times"? What does them being white men have to do with anything?

[cineater]

Hang on, are we bring our founding fathers into this?  Great men of their times and they had wisdom to bring into our times.  But they were all white men and excluded women, minorities and I believe you had to be a property owner at that time to vote.  Property including slaves.

What is this comment? What is your point? Did you not tell me that you don't believe in "identity politics"?

The quote I gave you was literally them defending the rights of minorities. Does that not fall into the category of "wisdom to bring into our times"? What does them being white men have to do with anything?

If they were defending the rights of minorities why were women excluded from voting, for example?  What they said was based on the times they lived in but we can apply it to our times.  We have recognized way more minority groups, that also includes more than race, that they treated as second class citizens or excluded.  The words are good but they weren't applied the same way we apply them today.  And in the future they can be applied to those times.  And the future will look back at our times and find fault with how we defined things.

Being a white man gets into the whole value of diversity in groups that is big right now.  What might have changed in the beginning if women, Indians and I'm not sure everybody's religion at that time but we know there was conflicting religious values going on, were included?  One race, one sex is not inclusive of everybody.  I'm not even sure if those guys represented every white man from different walks of life.

Er, I don't have a cock.  I'm assuming your male?  Might be the difficulty in communicating.  I have a female perspective.  And I noticed you're real into numbers.  I'm a people person.  Differences in how we approach things.  Doesn't mean we can't work things out.  I once dated an engineer.  Totally didn't understand what he was studying and people issues were totally foreign to him.  We couldn't help each other out with homework but we could live under the same roof.  Folks have different ways of approaching issues based on a lot of factors.  Different ways of defining terms.  I try to consider all that because maybe we are on the same page and there's really not a big difference in opinion.

[PermissionToLand]

If they were defending the rights of minorities why were women excluded from voting, for example?

NO. I am talking about the quote "tyranny of the majority". How are you so completely twisting everything I say? Is this a game to you?

Er, I don't have a cock.  I'm assuming your male?  Might be the difficulty in communicating.  I have a female perspective.  And I noticed you're real into numbers.  I'm a people person.  Differences in how we approach things.  Doesn't mean we can't work things out.  I once dated an engineer.  Totally didn't understand what he was studying and people issues were totally foreign to him.  We couldn't help each other out with homework but we could live under the same roof.  Folks have different ways of approaching issues based on a lot of factors.  Different ways of defining terms.  I try to consider all that because maybe we are on the same page and there's really not a big difference in opinion.

Did you not tell me previously that you hate being defined by your gender? I found the comment:

"I can tell you nothing pisses me off more then when somebody points out that I'm a woman.  Like I don't fit there and don't have the right.  Fuck I'm tried of fighting for the right to do something just because I don't fit a fucking stereotype.  Stop pointing it out.  Yes you can argue that it's helping people to see they have stereotyped folks but when you're a stereotype it just distracts from what you are trying to do and you feel belittle by the whole thing.  God damn it, let's talk about what I am doing not what fucking sex I am.  You know that conversation always leads to how I'm doing because I'm a woman.  You just can't get out of that loop and look at the work being done."

This has nothing to do with gender. This is about power. Any majority group can wield power over any minority group. The entire reason you are allowed to vote in this country as a woman is because that principle was so broadly stated that it was NOT limited by the social hangups of its time. If the principles of democracy were not so broadly defined by the founders, it would have been incredibly easy for the Supreme Court full of white men in 1920 to strike down the 19th amendment as unconstitutional. You are literally arguing against your own point.

I don't believe in dividing people into boxes like "numbers people" and "people people". That whole "left brain - right brain" dichotomy was never actually supported by science. All people are both creative and analytical. Trusting in science and statistics does not make me incapable of empathy. If anything, I'd say its the opposite; people who reject science tend to do so because there is no valid logical argument to bolster their cruel worldview. And because it seems necessary, let me point out that I'm not saying that applies to you, I'm speaking broadly of general trends.

[cineater]

If they were defending the rights of minorities why were women excluded from voting, for example?

NO. I am talking about the quote "tyranny of the majority". How are you so completely twisting everything I say? Is this a game to you?

Er, I don't have a cock.  I'm assuming your male?  Might be the difficulty in communicating.  I have a female perspective.  And I noticed you're real into numbers.  I'm a people person.  Differences in how we approach things.  Doesn't mean we can't work things out.  I once dated an engineer.  Totally didn't understand what he was studying and people issues were totally foreign to him.  We couldn't help each other out with homework but we could live under the same roof.  Folks have different ways of approaching issues based on a lot of factors.  Different ways of defining terms.  I try to consider all that because maybe we are on the same page and there's really not a big difference in opinion.

Did you not tell me previously that you hate being defined by your gender? I found the comment:

"I can tell you nothing pisses me off more then when somebody points out that I'm a woman.  Like I don't fit there and don't have the right.  Fuck I'm tried of fighting for the right to do something just because I don't fit a fucking stereotype.  Stop pointing it out.  Yes you can argue that it's helping people to see they have stereotyped folks but when you're a stereotype it just distracts from what you are trying to do and you feel belittle by the whole thing.  God damn it, let's talk about what I am doing not what fucking sex I am.  You know that conversation always leads to how I'm doing because I'm a woman.  You just can't get out of that loop and look at the work being done."

This has nothing to do with gender. This is about power. Any majority group can wield power over any minority group. The entire reason you are allowed to vote in this country as a woman is because that principle was so broadly stated that it was NOT limited by the social hangups of its time. If the principles of democracy were not so broadly defined by the founders, it would have been incredibly easy for the Supreme Court full of white men in 1920 to strike down the 19th amendment as unconstitutional. You are literally arguing against your own point.

I don't believe in dividing people into boxes like "numbers people" and "people people". That whole "left brain - right brain" dichotomy was never actually supported by science. All people are both creative and analytical. Trusting in science and statistics does not make me incapable of empathy. If anything, I'd say its the opposite; people who reject science tend to do so because there is no valid logical argument to bolster their cruel worldview. And because it seems necessary, let me point out that I'm not saying that applies to you, I'm speaking broadly of general trends.

No, not a game to me.  Sorry you feel like I'm miss understanding you.

[PermissionToLand]

Kentucky Senate Passes Bill Criminalizing Insults Against Police

https://wfpl.org/kentucky-senate-passes-bill-criminalizing-insults-against-police/

[cineater]

Kentucky Senate Passes Bill Criminalizing Insults Against Police

https://wfpl.org/kentucky-senate-passes-bill-criminalizing-insults-against-police/

I use to think if you ran from the police, fair game, you're target practice.  With the exception of your southern states where you had better pull out your "yes sirs", I could pretty reasonably assume I would be treated fairly by the cops.  Having gotten to know "some" cops better and heard what minorities have said about their arrest experiences, I no longer feel that way.  I lean more towards we need more rules around fair arrests, fair imprisonment and less bond requirements.  In my opinion, if you are going to work with the public, insults better just roll off your back otherwise you don't have the right temperament for the job.

[tim_m]

Kentucky Senate Passes Bill Criminalizing Insults Against Police

https://wfpl.org/kentucky-senate-passes-bill-criminalizing-insults-against-police/

I use to think if you ran from the police, fair game, you're target practice.  With the exception of your southern states where you had better pull out your "yes sirs", I could pretty reasonably assume I would be treated fairly by the cops.  Having gotten to know "some" cops better and heard what minorities have said about their arrest experiences, I no longer feel that way.  I lean more towards we need more rules around fair arrests, fair imprisonment and less bond requirements.  In my opinion, if you are going to work with the public, insults better just roll off your back otherwise you don't have the right temperament for the job.

This sets a bad precedent. Now a cop can basically do whatever they want to you if you insult them. It will allow them to act based on their emotions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rnbg7rnM9UQ  This sums it up perfectly.

[jarmo]

President Biden said on Thursday that his administration would reach its initial goal of administering 100 million shots of the COVID-19 vaccines well ahead of his initial 100-day benchmark.

Biden said that the goal of 100 million shots would be achieved on Friday, which will be 58 days into his presidency.

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/18/978840432/biden-administration-to-meet-goal-of-100-million-vaccine-doses-on-friday?t=1616168079306




/jarmo

[cineater]

President Biden said on Thursday that his administration would reach its initial goal of administering 100 million shots of the COVID-19 vaccines well ahead of his initial 100-day benchmark.

Biden said that the goal of 100 million shots would be achieved on Friday, which will be 58 days into his presidency.

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/18/978840432/biden-administration-to-meet-goal-of-100-million-vaccine-doses-on-friday?t=1616168079306




/jarmo

News media is continuing to fact check Biden.  Prior to Trump did they fact check the president on everything he said?  Or is this some lesson learned from the last guy?

[cineater]

Come on.  They dealt with all these children coming over the border during Obama.  Didn't do a very good job but they should have learned something.  There's very ridged rules for the states when children come into care about sending them with family and not putting them in group care.  All good polices because we learned a thing or two about children being in care.  If these kids have family, let them come and get them.  We'll deal with the other issues later.

[pilferk]

Come on.  They dealt with all these children coming over the border during Obama.  Didn't do a very good job but they should have learned something.  There's very ridged rules for the states when children come into care about sending them with family and not putting them in group care.  All good polices because we learned a thing or two about children being in care.  If these kids have family, let them come and get them.  We'll deal with the other issues later.

I 100% agree this wasn't handled well, or quickly enough. Given the Dems response over Trumps border crisis (more on that in a bit), Biden and his admin should take some heat for this.  But there are some caveats:

Trump destroyed the asylum system, and the Obama process for getting these kids to fosters or better housing. Totally dismantled it.  

The transition team wasn't given nearly the time and resources previous transition admins have been given.  There were things they wanted done that they were not allowed to do until Jan 20, after noon.  Should it have taken 60 days to work out a plan and get it enacted, since pretty much everyone saw this coming once Trump was out of office? No.  

The admin was in a tough spot from the get go, though.  That's not meant to be an excuse, but it is a bit of a qualifier and adds some context.

It should hopefully improve soon. They've designated a shit ton of space (normal dormitory style space) for housing at Lackland in Texas.  They're also building new dormitory space at Fort Bliss.  They are also nearly ready with the "stay in place" asylum system they are rebuilding, which also should take some pressure off.

They have a plan, at least (and one they are actually detailing, not "a plan" that never is released or acted on or detailed or...well, likely existed) and it seems like it's being fixed.  On top of that, the media is going a little nuts over an approximately 30 hour extension of the legal limit for detainment in HHS facilities for these kids.  They are supposed to be out within 72 hours, and placed in an appropriate facility, rehoming, or release.  It's taking about 108 hrs, on average, right now (and dropping).  Hopefully, we'll see that drop sooner rather than later.

Under Tump, it was more typically 5 to 7 days (so this admin is actually improving, while facing greater volume)....and the old admin tried to propose TWENTY DAYS.  In addition, this administration hasn't, I don't think, "lost" a single kid, nor have they separated kids from their family.  It's a similar problem to the one Obama faced where there is a rush of unaccompanied minors at the border.

So yes, there is reason for frustration and anger.  But it should probably be moderated by what's going on, and in relation to what WAS going on.

I do find it VERY interesting Repubs are jumping all over this one, but were 100% silent when it was Trump. No?

[cineater]

Come on.  They dealt with all these children coming over the border during Obama.  Didn't do a very good job but they should have learned something.  There's very ridged rules for the states when children come into care about sending them with family and not putting them in group care.  All good polices because we learned a thing or two about children being in care.  If these kids have family, let them come and get them.  We'll deal with the other issues later.

I 100% agree this wasn't handled well, or quickly enough. Given the Dems response over Trumps border crisis (more on that in a bit), Biden and his admin should take some heat for this.  But there are some caveats:

Trump destroyed the asylum system, and the Obama process for getting these kids to fosters or better housing. Totally dismantled it.  

The transition team wasn't given nearly the time and resources previous transition admins have been given.  There were things they wanted done that they were not allowed to do until Jan 20, after noon.  Should it have taken 60 days to work out a plan and get it enacted, since pretty much everyone saw this coming once Trump was out of office? No.  

The admin was in a tough spot from the get go, though.  That's not meant to be an excuse, but it is a bit of a qualifier and adds some context.

It should hopefully improve soon. They've designated a shit ton of space (normal dormitory style space) for housing at Lackland in Texas.  They're also building new dormitory space at Fort Bliss.  They are also nearly ready with the "stay in place" asylum system they are rebuilding, which also should take some pressure off.

They have a plan, at least (and one they are actually detailing, not "a plan" that never is released or acted on or detailed or...well, likely existed) and it seems like it's being fixed.  On top of that, the media is going a little nuts over an approximately 30 hour extension of the legal limit for detainment in HHS facilities for these kids.  They are supposed to be out within 72 hours, and placed in an appropriate facility, rehoming, or release.  It's taking about 108 hrs, on average, right now (and dropping).  Hopefully, we'll see that drop sooner rather than later.

Under Tump, it was more typically 5 to 7 days (so this admin is actually improving, while facing greater volume)....and the old admin tried to propose TWENTY DAYS.  In addition, this administration hasn't, I don't think, "lost" a single kid, nor have they separated kids from their family.  It's a similar problem to the one Obama faced where there is a rush of unaccompanied minors at the border.

So yes, there is reason for frustration and anger.  But it should probably be moderated by what's going on, and in relation to what WAS going on.

I do find it VERY interesting Repubs are jumping all over this one, but were 100% silent when it was Trump. No?

There are no good choices when your overrun and I get the system is limited.  I'm glad they sent reps to the countries these kids are coming from to see if there was any help from that end or something could be done.  I was happy to see they weren't going to use the summer camps of religious groups.  I'm happy they aren't just putting them on planes and sending them back. 

I want don't see this as a political football.  This is a humanitarian issue.  Politicians need to do something other than blame the other side.  Can we come together and help these people?

[tim_m]

Come on.  They dealt with all these children coming over the border during Obama.  Didn't do a very good job but they should have learned something.  There's very ridged rules for the states when children come into care about sending them with family and not putting them in group care.  All good polices because we learned a thing or two about children being in care.  If these kids have family, let them come and get them.  We'll deal with the other issues later.

I 100% agree this wasn't handled well, or quickly enough. Given the Dems response over Trumps border crisis (more on that in a bit), Biden and his admin should take some heat for this.  But there are some caveats:

Trump destroyed the asylum system, and the Obama process for getting these kids to fosters or better housing. Totally dismantled it.  

The transition team wasn't given nearly the time and resources previous transition admins have been given.  There were things they wanted done that they were not allowed to do until Jan 20, after noon.  Should it have taken 60 days to work out a plan and get it enacted, since pretty much everyone saw this coming once Trump was out of office? No.  

The admin was in a tough spot from the get go, though.  That's not meant to be an excuse, but it is a bit of a qualifier and adds some context.

It should hopefully improve soon. They've designated a shit ton of space (normal dormitory style space) for housing at Lackland in Texas.  They're also building new dormitory space at Fort Bliss.  They are also nearly ready with the "stay in place" asylum system they are rebuilding, which also should take some pressure off.

They have a plan, at least (and one they are actually detailing, not "a plan" that never is released or acted on or detailed or...well, likely existed) and it seems like it's being fixed.  On top of that, the media is going a little nuts over an approximately 30 hour extension of the legal limit for detainment in HHS facilities for these kids.  They are supposed to be out within 72 hours, and placed in an appropriate facility, rehoming, or release.  It's taking about 108 hrs, on average, right now (and dropping).  Hopefully, we'll see that drop sooner rather than later.

Under Tump, it was more typically 5 to 7 days (so this admin is actually improving, while facing greater volume)....and the old admin tried to propose TWENTY DAYS.  In addition, this administration hasn't, I don't think, "lost" a single kid, nor have they separated kids from their family.  It's a similar problem to the one Obama faced where there is a rush of unaccompanied minors at the border.

So yes, there is reason for frustration and anger.  But it should probably be moderated by what's going on, and in relation to what WAS going on.

I do find it VERY interesting Repubs are jumping all over this one, but were 100% silent when it was Trump. No?

There are no good choices when your overrun and I get the system is limited.  I'm glad they sent reps to the countries these kids are coming from to see if there was any help from that end or something could be done.  I was happy to see they weren't going to use the summer camps of religious groups.  I'm happy they aren't just putting them on planes and sending them back. 

I want don't see this as a political football.  This is a humanitarian issue.  Politicians need to do something other than blame the other side.  Can we come together and help these people?

I wish more people felt like you. If it were up to people like my mom she'd send them all back to "fix" their own countries. Like it's all easy, because we do so well fixing our own. She wants us to help our own homeless first. I don't understand why it's gotta be either or, we can do both!

[tim_m]

Come on.  They dealt with all these children coming over the border during Obama.  Didn't do a very good job but they should have learned something.  There's very ridged rules for the states when children come into care about sending them with family and not putting them in group care.  All good polices because we learned a thing or two about children being in care.  If these kids have family, let them come and get them.  We'll deal with the other issues later.

I 100% agree this wasn't handled well, or quickly enough. Given the Dems response over Trumps border crisis (more on that in a bit), Biden and his admin should take some heat for this.  But there are some caveats:

Trump destroyed the asylum system, and the Obama process for getting these kids to fosters or better housing. Totally dismantled it.  

The transition team wasn't given nearly the time and resources previous transition admins have been given.  There were things they wanted done that they were not allowed to do until Jan 20, after noon.  Should it have taken 60 days to work out a plan and get it enacted, since pretty much everyone saw this coming once Trump was out of office? No.  

The admin was in a tough spot from the get go, though.  That's not meant to be an excuse, but it is a bit of a qualifier and adds some context.

It should hopefully improve soon. They've designated a shit ton of space (normal dormitory style space) for housing at Lackland in Texas.  They're also building new dormitory space at Fort Bliss.  They are also nearly ready with the "stay in place" asylum system they are rebuilding, which also should take some pressure off.

They have a plan, at least (and one they are actually detailing, not "a plan" that never is released or acted on or detailed or...well, likely existed) and it seems like it's being fixed.  On top of that, the media is going a little nuts over an approximately 30 hour extension of the legal limit for detainment in HHS facilities for these kids.  They are supposed to be out within 72 hours, and placed in an appropriate facility, rehoming, or release.  It's taking about 108 hrs, on average, right now (and dropping).  Hopefully, we'll see that drop sooner rather than later.

Under Tump, it was more typically 5 to 7 days (so this admin is actually improving, while facing greater volume)....and the old admin tried to propose TWENTY DAYS.  In addition, this administration hasn't, I don't think, "lost" a single kid, nor have they separated kids from their family.  It's a similar problem to the one Obama faced where there is a rush of unaccompanied minors at the border.

So yes, there is reason for frustration and anger.  But it should probably be moderated by what's going on, and in relation to what WAS going on.

I do find it VERY interesting Repubs are jumping all over this one, but were 100% silent when it was Trump. No?

Biden absolutely deserves some criticism with this. They should've moved faster. They should've had better places for them sooner. Using places like hotels is a great idea. At least these places are clean and they're not behind chain link fence. I have no problem saying Biden started off wrong with this at all.

[cineater]

Come on.  They dealt with all these children coming over the border during Obama.  Didn't do a very good job but they should have learned something.  There's very ridged rules for the states when children come into care about sending them with family and not putting them in group care.  All good polices because we learned a thing or two about children being in care.  If these kids have family, let them come and get them.  We'll deal with the other issues later.

I 100% agree this wasn't handled well, or quickly enough. Given the Dems response over Trumps border crisis (more on that in a bit), Biden and his admin should take some heat for this.  But there are some caveats:

Trump destroyed the asylum system, and the Obama process for getting these kids to fosters or better housing. Totally dismantled it.  

The transition team wasn't given nearly the time and resources previous transition admins have been given.  There were things they wanted done that they were not allowed to do until Jan 20, after noon.  Should it have taken 60 days to work out a plan and get it enacted, since pretty much everyone saw this coming once Trump was out of office? No.  

The admin was in a tough spot from the get go, though.  That's not meant to be an excuse, but it is a bit of a qualifier and adds some context.

It should hopefully improve soon. They've designated a shit ton of space (normal dormitory style space) for housing at Lackland in Texas.  They're also building new dormitory space at Fort Bliss.  They are also nearly ready with the "stay in place" asylum system they are rebuilding, which also should take some pressure off.

They have a plan, at least (and one they are actually detailing, not "a plan" that never is released or acted on or detailed or...well, likely existed) and it seems like it's being fixed.  On top of that, the media is going a little nuts over an approximately 30 hour extension of the legal limit for detainment in HHS facilities for these kids.  They are supposed to be out within 72 hours, and placed in an appropriate facility, rehoming, or release.  It's taking about 108 hrs, on average, right now (and dropping).  Hopefully, we'll see that drop sooner rather than later.

Under Tump, it was more typically 5 to 7 days (so this admin is actually improving, while facing greater volume)....and the old admin tried to propose TWENTY DAYS.  In addition, this administration hasn't, I don't think, "lost" a single kid, nor have they separated kids from their family.  It's a similar problem to the one Obama faced where there is a rush of unaccompanied minors at the border.

So yes, there is reason for frustration and anger.  But it should probably be moderated by what's going on, and in relation to what WAS going on.

I do find it VERY interesting Repubs are jumping all over this one, but were 100% silent when it was Trump. No?

There are no good choices when your overrun and I get the system is limited.  I'm glad they sent reps to the countries these kids are coming from to see if there was any help from that end or something could be done.  I was happy to see they weren't going to use the summer camps of religious groups.  I'm happy they aren't just putting them on planes and sending them back. 

I want don't see this as a political football.  This is a humanitarian issue.  Politicians need to do something other than blame the other side.  Can we come together and help these people?

I wish more people felt like you. If it were up to people like my mom she'd send them all back to "fix" their own countries. Like it's all easy, because we do so well fixing our own. She wants us to help our own homeless first. I don't understand why it's gotta be either or, we can do both!

You have to wonder what people have been through to have those kinds of attitudes especially towards children.  Given the case profile of an individual child, in your mom's terms, told the child's story, she'd probably take that kid in and love them like her own.  Does she think the homeless did something wrong to get themselves into that situation?  Yeah, she probably does. 

[PermissionToLand]

I wish more people felt like you. If it were up to people like my mom she'd send them all back to "fix" their own countries. Like it's all easy, because we do so well fixing our own. She wants us to help our own homeless first. I don't understand why it's gotta be either or, we can do both!

Man, I hate that attitude, my brother has it in regard to poor urban minorities; he went on a rant about the "productive taxpayers" having to pay the way for them and how they should just "fix their own mess". Of course, I tried to explain that not only do cities and blue states actually subsidize rural Americans more than the other way around, but also the only reason some cities became poor is because of white flight in response to desegregation, hollowing out their tax bases. So it was literally a mess created by the people who fled to rural and suburban areas, not the people who live in those cities. (And, of course, the outsourcing of manufacturing driven by the design of capitalism.)

Likewise, south and central America are struggling largely because of the USA's constant intervention and hunger for oil, narcotics and cheap labor.

Biden absolutely deserves some criticism with this. They should've moved faster. They should've had better places for them sooner. Using places like hotels is a great idea. At least these places are clean and they're not behind chain link fence. I have no problem saying Biden started off wrong with this at all.

What amazes me is that it never seems to register for centrists that the left actually holds their own accountable, as we're seeing here, while the right just joins right in with Trump on whatever the newest most extreme lie is.

[pilferk]

What amazes me is that it never seems to register for centrists that the left actually holds their own accountable, as we're seeing here, while the right just joins right in with Trump on whatever the newest most extreme lie is.

This was a large part of my point in questioning Republican responses. And THEY have made it a political issue.

"Can't we all just get along" is fine, if you're coming from a reasonable position.  Repubs aren't.  And we can say, over and over, it shouldn't be a political issue, but a humanitarian one.  But you have to convince the Repubs that's true...which makes it a political issue.

[cineater]

What amazes me is that it never seems to register for centrists that the left actually holds their own accountable, as we're seeing here, while the right just joins right in with Trump on whatever the newest most extreme lie is.

This was a large part of my point in questioning Republican responses. And THEY have made it a political issue.

"Can't we all just get along" is fine, if you're coming from a reasonable position.  Repubs aren't.  And we can say, over and over, it shouldn't be a political issue, but a humanitarian one.  But you have to convince the Repubs that's true...which makes it a political issue.

   You hold on tight to that "no we can't get along and it's their fault".  Assigning blame will always keep the fight going.  You are starting from a position of it can't work before you tried.  Start from it can be done and work your way towards the goal.  If you're going to stop trying at the first obstacle, we're not getting any where.  The first obstacle is your own way of thinking, all people in the republican party are not reasonable.  That's what you're saying?  You're firmly in that group that says it can't be done when it can be done if you would only try and not give up when it gets hard.

Yeah I know, idealistic, but that's the attitude.  It makes things happen but you get the shit beat out of you, mostly by those folks saying it can't be done.  If they would just get the fuck out of the way, it wouldn't be that hard.

[PermissionToLand]

  You hold on tight to that "no we can't get along and it's their fault".  Assigning blame will always keep the fight going.  You are starting from a position of it can't work before you tried.  Start from it can be done and work your way towards the goal.  If you're going to stop trying at the first obstacle, we're not getting any where.  The first obstacle is your own way of thinking, all people in the republican party are not reasonable.  That's what you're saying?  You're firmly in that group that says it can't be done when it can be done if you would only try and not give up when it gets hard.

Yeah I know, idealistic, but that's the attitude.  It makes things happen but you get the shit beat out of you, mostly by those folks saying it can't be done.  If they would just get the fuck out of the way, it wouldn't be that hard.

This is a serious question: Do you believe that it's impossible for one side to be objectively in the wrong? Do you think the 3/5ths compromise was valid?

I would say you're going beyond idealism and reaching absolutism or fundamentalism. To you, it seems that compromise is the answer to every question, before you've even heard the question. But it cannot always be the answer. You cannot compromise with extremists. Do you think a thief taking hostages should be bartered with over how many hostages he will kill? If I punched you in the face for no reason, would you think it's right for me to then demand you compromise with me and in the future I'll only slap you in the face?

[tim_m]

I wish more people felt like you. If it were up to people like my mom she'd send them all back to "fix" their own countries. Like it's all easy, because we do so well fixing our own. She wants us to help our own homeless first. I don't understand why it's gotta be either or, we can do both!

Man, I hate that attitude, my brother has it in regard to poor urban minorities; he went on a rant about the "productive taxpayers" having to pay the way for them and how they should just "fix their own mess". Of course, I tried to explain that not only do cities and blue states actually subsidize rural Americans more than the other way around, but also the only reason some cities became poor is because of white flight in response to desegregation, hollowing out their tax bases. So it was literally a mess created by the people who fled to rural and suburban areas, not the people who live in those cities. (And, of course, the outsourcing of manufacturing driven by the design of capitalism.)

Likewise, south and central America are struggling largely because of the USA's constant intervention and hunger for oil, narcotics and cheap labor.

Biden absolutely deserves some criticism with this. They should've moved faster. They should've had better places for them sooner. Using places like hotels is a great idea. At least these places are clean and they're not behind chain link fence. I have no problem saying Biden started off wrong with this at all.

What amazes me is that it never seems to register for centrists that the left actually holds their own accountable, as we're seeing here, while the right just joins right in with Trump on whatever the newest most extreme lie is.

They don't want to hear that the reason these countries are a mess is because our foreign policy in these countries were a major contributing factor.

Trump is still a big part of the blame though. His policies helped create this mess, Biden was not as prepared as he should've been. I'm sure part of it was the delaying of the transition but still Biden deserves criticism here.