2017 Baseball Season/Off Season Discussion

[JAEBALL]

Baseball is and always will be the sport nearest and dearest to my heart... but I will have a heart attack if they completely change the rules of baseball for extra innings.

I HATE what hockey does in overtime ... but this would make me sick beyond belief.


They are obsessed with making the game more fan friendly but at the same time they have record revenues and ticket sales, so I don't know what their deal is.

[pilferk]

Baseball is and always will be the sport nearest and dearest to my heart... but I will have a heart attack if they completely change the rules of baseball for extra innings.

I HATE what hockey does in overtime ... but this would make me sick beyond belief.


They are obsessed with making the game more fan friendly but at the same time they have record revenues and ticket sales, so I don't know what their deal is.

I do.

It's not the actual fans that are doing all that much complaining.

It's the TV networks.

And since a good chunk of team and MLB revenue comes from broadcast rights of one sort or another, MLB is looking to kneel to their masters and try to get the games to a point they are AROUND 2 hours, with a faster pace.  Because the NETWORKS want to increase their ratings, and pull in more casual viewers, and they feel pace of game stunts that ability.

I DO think that some of the stuff that goes on is nuts. 2 minutes to get a pitch to the plate IS way too much, between all the kerfluffling in the box, and on the mound, and time outs/mound walks when the "other side" is taking too long to get ready.  It's annoying as fuck.

BUT, the answer is not a 30 second pitch clock.  It's "keep the batter in the box, and the pitcher on the mound" thing.  And you can make rules that will do that and NOT install a clock.

The issue with the strike zone is not it's size, it's it's complete lack of consistency, that fans hate. We don't want more runs...we just want the zone to be the same on each batter, from game to game(HELL, from inning to inning). I LIKE the human element behind the plate, but I think the humans you have doing the job (I'm looking at you Angel Hernandez and CB Bucknor) think they're a bigger part of the game than they are, and try to insinuate themselves into things, to get their face and name on TV, to stroke their own egos.  The strike zone, IMHO, isn't a game issue (the zone, as stated, is perfect), it's an officiating issue and MLB could very quickly, and very easily, solve it by actually DISCIPLINING BAD OFFICIATING and penalizing the showboaters.  It's not like they don't know who they are!!

And as for the trips to the mound...OK...on this one we agree (at least with the managers).  Late in games, it seems we're seeing 4 or 5 trips in an INNING (and, yes, pitching changes) and that's just nuts. They have to do SOMETHING to clean that up, because innings 7 - 9 take almost as long to play as innings 1-6, sometimes. But, again, if you do that, you have to provide some way to deal with sign stealing and the ability of a manager to relay actual strategic information to his pitcher without that mound visit. 

OK, rant over.

[GeorgeSteele]

A lot can and should be done to speed up the game, but I think signals for intentional walks would be complete bullshit.  The climactic scene in Bad News Bears is when Kelly Leak rips the near inside-the-parker during an intentional walk.  That loses all meaning with this rule change!

Plus, the mere chance, albeit small, that a pitcher flubs an intentional walk pitch (sometimes it happens) while runners are on base makes for great theatre.  If I'm a fan of the hitting team, those moments are always a bit exciting, and if I'm a fan of the pitching team, I always have a small sense of dread in those moments.  Fun stuff!

[Falcon]

A lot can and should be done to speed up the game, but I think signals for intentional walks would be complete bullshit.  The climactic scene in Bad News Bears is when Kelly Leak rips the near inside-the-parker during an intentional walk.  That loses all meaning with this rule change!

Plus, the mere chance, albeit small, that a pitcher flubs an intentional walk pitch (sometimes it happens) while runners are on base makes for great theatre.  If I'm a fan of the hitting team, those moments are always a bit exciting, and if I'm a fan of the pitching team, I always have a small sense of dread in those moments.  Fun stuff!

Agree on all points George, it's bullshit.

Punish sign stealing pilf?

For me, I love that stuff  - it's part of the fabric of the game.

As for the strike zone, I wish they'd go back to knees to letters - widen that fucker and get bats off shoulders and speed the game up at the same time.

[Falcon]

Even though it's a college game, this is why the 'autowalk" is just goofy:


https://twitter.com/tengland150/status/834455996869263360

[TheBaconman]

A lot can and should be done to speed up the game, but I think signals for intentional walks would be complete bullshit.  The climactic scene in Bad News Bears is when Kelly Leak rips the near inside-the-parker during an intentional walk.  That loses all meaning with this rule change!

Plus, the mere chance, albeit small, that a pitcher flubs an intentional walk pitch (sometimes it happens) while runners are on base makes for great theatre.  If I'm a fan of the hitting team, those moments are always a bit exciting, and if I'm a fan of the pitching team, I always have a small sense of dread in those moments.  Fun stuff!

I enjoy long lasting games.  I hate it live though when they cut liquor service off after a set time frame (experience this is Denver during a hail storm), but watching at home its great.

There are lots of other faster passed sports out there, that that's what they are.    The human element is actually what makes it great.  No ties.  Play until your team can play no longer

[pilferk]

A lot can and should be done to speed up the game, but I think signals for intentional walks would be complete bullshit.  The climactic scene in Bad News Bears is when Kelly Leak rips the near inside-the-parker during an intentional walk.  That loses all meaning with this rule change!

Plus, the mere chance, albeit small, that a pitcher flubs an intentional walk pitch (sometimes it happens) while runners are on base makes for great theatre.  If I'm a fan of the hitting team, those moments are always a bit exciting, and if I'm a fan of the pitching team, I always have a small sense of dread in those moments.  Fun stuff!

Agree on all points George, it's bullshit.

Punish sign stealing pilf?

For me, I love that stuff  - it's part of the fabric of the game.

As for the strike zone, I wish they'd go back to knees to letters - widen that fucker and get bats off shoulders and speed the game up at the same time.

...punish sign stealing IF they are going to limit visits (especially catcher visits) to the mound. Because otherwise, the defensive team has no recourse...they can't switch signs or manually call pitches.  You can't address just one side of that equation and not the other.

I like knees to numbers, too..but I'd take a strike zone that is applied the same way to every player, by every ump. So..if it's knees to numbers, it's knees to numbers (and over the plate and JUST the plate) on every player, for every pitch of every game. Not "just a bit outside" for Bucknor or "just a little low" for Hernandez...until the 4th inning, against the other teams best hitter, when it's a bit outside and high, but not low.

Again, it's more an officiating issue than a rules issue, IMHO.

[pilferk]

Even though it's a college game, this is why the 'autowalk" is just goofy:


https://twitter.com/tengland150/status/834455996869263360

Yeah, but couple things:

1) That happens a lot more often in the lower levels of baseball (college and below) than it does in the majors

2) Last year there were 12 wild pitches (and ZERO hits..in fact, the last noteable contact with a wild pitch occurred in 2016 and it was a sac fly), in all of MLB, during intentional walks.  And not all of those wild pitches resulted in runners advancing. There were 932 intentional walks in 2016 (the fewest since the strike shortened season of 1990).  That's a 1.2% chance of something interesting happening, and a 98.8% chance of 4 wasted pitches and 120 seconds of boringness (at least). That's like hitting .001

I'm not going to argue the situation doesn't add some drama...it does. But they payoff on that drama is SO rare...it's an artificial anxiety for the fans. It's akin to electing a fan in the stands to come in and stand in against the other teams closer in the final at bat...VERY low chance for any actual payoff...but we're all going to remember the one time every 10 years that a fan runs into one.

[pilferk]

I enjoy long lasting games.  I hate it live though when they cut liquor service off after a set time frame (experience this is Denver during a hail storm), but watching at home its great.

There are lots of other faster passed sports out there, that that's what they are.    The human element is actually what makes it great.  No ties.  Play until your team can play no longer

To a point.

But, for example, the 3 hour and 40 minutes Red Sox/Yanks games are a little nuts.

Now, ONE of the REASONS they're nuts (and so long) is because so many of them end up on network tv (ESPN and FOX) and they take more commercial breaks than the local sports networks do....but the networks aren't going to give up ad revenue...so in their minds, they have to "fix" the running time so they can still run all those ads AND keep run time to around 2 hours.

The OTHER reasons are those two teams like to fuck with each other, in and out of the box, and they have (had?) some of the WORST guys, when it comes to in and out of box, and round and round the mound, in MLB.

I agree, that last bit is boring as fuck to watch.  I have no issue with a 3 hour game of actual interesting things happening. Those games are GREAT.

But when every game is 3 hours long because of wasted fiddling and diddling.....just...no.  Ughhh.

[TheBaconman]

I enjoy long lasting games.  I hate it live though when they cut liquor service off after a set time frame (experience this is Denver during a hail storm), but watching at home its great.

There are lots of other faster passed sports out there, that that's what they are.    The human element is actually what makes it great.  No ties.  Play until your team can play no longer

To a point.

But, for example, the 3 hour and 40 minutes Red Sox/Yanks games are a little nuts.

Now, ONE of the REASONS they're nuts (and so long) is because so many of them end up on network tv (ESPN and FOX) and they take more commercial breaks than the local sports networks do....but the networks aren't going to give up ad revenue...so in their minds, they have to "fix" the running time so they can still run all those ads AND keep run time to around 2 hours.

The OTHER reasons are those two teams like to fuck with each other, in and out of the box, and they have (had?) some of the WORST guys, when it comes to in and out of box, and round and round the mound, in MLB.

I agree, that last bit is boring as fuck to watch.  I have no issue with a 3 hour game of actual interesting things happening. Those games are GREAT.

But when every game is 3 hours long because of wasted fiddling and diddling.....just...no.  Ughhh.

Oh I like the wasted fiddling and diddling.  I like the human ahole factor of mind games and showman ship.  I prefer 3 1/2 hr games

Like Rus Martin Said

If they want to save more time why not get rid of the homerun, trot around the mound..

And like Johny Gibbons said

What are they saving with this new walk a pitcher rule, 20 secs?   Cool...

Next perhaps golf will make all the players drive carts around and use automatic score cards

its BS

Some sports are slow, some sports have no designed end time. 

I think like you said a little

This has a lot less to do to catering to fans than it does to trying to stream line a sport for maximum TV revenue. 

Indy racing has a set time limit

Hockey has a specific end time

Baseball doesn't, its nice

[pilferk]

And like Johny Gibbons said

What are they saving with this new walk a pitcher rule, 20 secs?   Cool...

Not to besmirch Gibbons math skills, but:

Average time to deliver a pitch is about 20 seconds (in 2016).

So each intentional walk is saving about 80 seconds....or a minute and twenty seconds.

Now, I agree....that's a drop in the bucket, considering the diminishing use of the IBB.  But it's something.

Another thing: In recent years, the time between batters (from completion of an AB to the next batter getting into the box) has risen by 50%. Some of that is replay time (about 5% of it), some of it is additional ad time (MLB increased ad break duration on network tv..so that's another approx 10%). The rest is just the players fucking around.

I, too, like the human factor and no clock on baseball.  But I'm sorry...watching Derek Jeter (who I LOVED) fuck with his gloves and go through a 30 second "ritual" before EACH PITCH is not gamesmanship. Watching Clay Bucholz (who I HATE) fiddle and diddle on and around the mound between pitches is not gamesmanship.  It's not "getting into the other teams head". It's boring as fuck. Get in the box, throw the damn ball, and play the game.  That's what I want to see: Baseball.  Just like I would not want to see Lebron James sit there and fuck with his jock, tie his sneakers, and wring out his headband between every foul shot (never mind every basket).

I agree: The stuff that's actually "gamesmanship" is cool to watch and I like the more cerebral elements like that, too. I also agree that every sport has it's own pace, and Baseball is never going to be NBA Showtime, nor do I want it to be.  But there are things they can streamline that improves the PACE of play, so that what we're watching is actual game, and not kicking dirt off your spikes (when there isn't any there).  The funny thing is....other than the intentional walk thing...I'm not advocating drastic rule changes to do that. I'm actually advocating going back to the way things were done in the 80's and 90's, routinely.  This stupid fiddling shit in a recent development...not a traditional one.  The "variable strike zone" is a recent thing (mid-90s til now...and it's gotten worse), not a traditional one.  I actually want them to go back to THAT pacing.

[TheBaconman]

And like Johny Gibbons said

What are they saving with this new walk a pitcher rule, 20 secs?   Cool...

Not to besmirch Gibbons math skills, but:

Average time to deliver a pitch is about 20 seconds (in 2016).

So each intentional walk is saving about 80 seconds....or a minute and twenty seconds.

Now, I agree....that's a drop in the bucket, considering the diminishing use of the IBB.  But it's something.

Another thing: In recent years, the time between batters (from completion of an AB to the next batter getting into the box) has risen by 50%. Some of that is replay time (about 5% of it), some of it is additional ad time (MLB increased ad break duration on network tv..so that's another approx 10%). The rest is just the players fucking around.

I, too, like the human factor and no clock on baseball.  But I'm sorry...watching Derek Jeter (who I LOVED) fuck with his gloves and go through a 30 second "ritual" before EACH PITCH is not gamesmanship. Watching Clay Bucholz (who I HATE) fiddle and diddle on and around the mound between pitches is not gamesmanship.  It's not "getting into the other teams head". It's boring as fuck. Get in the box, throw the damn ball, and play the game.  That's what I want to see: Baseball.  Just like I would not want to see Lebron James sit there and fuck with his jock, tie his sneakers, and wring out his headband between every foul shot (never mind every basket).

I agree: The stuff that's actually "gamesmanship" is cool to watch and I like the more cerebral elements like that, too. I also agree that every sport has it's own pace, and Baseball is never going to be NBA Showtime, nor do I want it to be.  But there are things they can streamline that improves the PACE of play, so that what we're watching is actual game, and not kicking dirt off your spikes (when there isn't any there).  The funny thing is....other than the intentional walk thing...I'm not advocating drastic rule changes to do that. I'm actually advocating going back to the way things were done in the 80's and 90's, routinely.  This stupid fiddling shit in a recent development...not a traditional one.  The "variable strike zone" is a recent thing (mid-90s til now...and it's gotten worse), not a traditional one.  I actually want them to go back to THAT pacing.

So on the sports channel last night after Gibbons comments regarding it saving the game 20secs

They pulled the actual numbers for last year in time spent via the walk.....  Not the standard pitch that you mentions.    The actual time spent on this was 35secs, so as you can see Johny was very close, and no time is actually saved

And

It takes baseball out of the play

Its stupid

Actual baseball happens during some of these pitches, wild throws etc, not always but sometimes.  ITs not automatic.  Until now.

[pilferk]

So on the sports channel last night after Gibbons comments regarding it saving the game 20secs

They pulled the actual numbers for last year in time spent via the walk.....  Not the standard pitch that you mentions.    The actual time spent on this was 35secs, so as you can see Johny was very close, and no time is actually saved

And

It takes baseball out of the play

Its stupid

Actual baseball happens during some of these pitches, wild throws etc, not always but sometimes.  ITs not automatic.  Until now.

He was off by almost double( 75%)  20 vs 35. And it depends on how you look at it.

They got their stat from this tweet, likely, from @MLBStatistics:

Intentional walks took an estimated 1410 minutes in 2016.
That is 35 seconds per game.

MLB Statistics is dividing the total number of minutes by the total number of games played in MLB last year to get their number. Fair enough, but it's a little misleading...because not every game HAS an intentional walk, and the total number of intentional walks last year was at a historic low.

In the games that DO have intentional walks...it saves about 1.5 minutes (931 intentional walks last year, 1410 minutes, means 1.5 minutes per intentional walk..pretty close to my 80 second "figuring" based on average time to deliver a pitch).

And, as I said, that's a drop in the bucket compared to the "other stuff".

In term of "something can happen", again, 1.2% of the time, last year, there was a wild pitch (and not every one advanced runners).You could draft a fan in the 9th inning, put them in the batters box, in EVERY game, and get a similar result

You want to watch a guy batting .012?  Not me. Not on my team. Waste of time, waste of an out.

[TheBaconman]

So on the sports channel last night after Gibbons comments regarding it saving the game 20secs

They pulled the actual numbers for last year in time spent via the walk.....  Not the standard pitch that you mentions.    The actual time spent on this was 35secs, so as you can see Johny was very close, and no time is actually saved

And

It takes baseball out of the play

Its stupid

Actual baseball happens during some of these pitches, wild throws etc, not always but sometimes.  ITs not automatic.  Until now.

He was off by almost double( 75%)  20 vs 35. And it depends on how you look at it.

They got their stat from this tweet, likely, from @MLBStatistics:

Intentional walks took an estimated 1410 minutes in 2016.
That is 35 seconds per game.

MLB Statistics is dividing the total number of minutes by the total number of games played in MLB last year to get their number. Fair enough, but it's a little misleading...because not every game HAS an intentional walk, and the total number of intentional walks last year was at a historic low.

In the games that DO have intentional walks...it saves about 1.5 minutes (931 intentional walks last year, 1410 minutes, means 1.5 minutes per intentional walk..pretty close to my 80 second "figuring" based on average time to deliver a pitch).

And, as I said, that's a drop in the bucket compared to the "other stuff".

In term of "something can happen", again, 1.2% of the time, last year, there was a wild pitch (and not every one advanced runners).You could draft a fan in the 9th inning, put them in the batters box, in EVERY game, and get a similar result

You want to watch a guy batting .012?  Not me. Not on my team. Waste of time, waste of an out.

That's right, Gibbons off the top of his head comment was 15secs off the actual number.  As compared to the one you mentioned based off some logical stats you had time to look up was 45secs.   

Cool

I think you watch a ball game totally different than myself

For example.   Last year.  I think I caught 90% of all all the Jays games last year.  I think I watched a good chunk of other teams play as well.

For me, I am not sitting on the edge of my seat staring at a tv, writing down every stat, sweating every moment of the game

Lots I just have on in the back ground of life

Lots I just have on the radio

Lots I watch with total focus

Lots I don't

I attended 15 live games last year

Nothing better than watching a ball game in the summer live.

But I am not sitting on the edge of my seat for every play.  Its baseball.  Walking around a stadium, socializing, drinking beer, eating, random cheering and booing

Baseball is one of the few sports that has never really changed anything.  Its where if you actually like stats, they actually mean something in this sport as compared to hockey

I love being out at my cottage at the lake and having a game on my outdoor speakers.  It could last for 5 hours for all I care.  They can fiddle around with everything.  Part of the fun of listening to a ball game on the radio is listening to all the filler stories they come up with.

[pilferk]

That's right, Gibbons off the top of his head comment was 15secs off the actual number.  As compared to the one you mentioned based off some logical stats you had time to look up was 45secs.   
Cool

Again, my stat wasn't off 45 seconds...it was off 10 (and under).

My stat was "from the games that have intentional walks in them, it would cut about 80 seconds off those games". In fact, using the actual numbers, it cuts about 90 seconds off them.

Gibbons cited a completely meaningless, misleading stat (assuming he was of the same mind as @MLBstatistics). Because..you can't cut time off a game in which something doesn't actually happen.  So getting an average over every game played doesn't actually mean anything. It's bad data analysis, especially considering the parameters (all time low of walks last season).

And he was still 75% off, even looking at that.

It doesn't cut "20 seconds off the game" or "35 seconds off the game". It cuts about 90 seconds off the games where there's an intentional walk, and 0 seconds off the games where there aren't.

I think you watch a ball game totally different than myself

For example.   Last year.  I think I caught 90% of all all the Jays games last year.

Man, I bet your knees were sore.

But I typically have, on TV, about the same for Yanks games. Not last year....they were impossible to watch and work commitments were nuts which kept me from screens and broadcast (though MLB.com gameday audio was nice to have). This year, as in pretty much every year prior, I'd expect that to go back to form with me watching 80% of the Yanks games live, and another 10% via tape delay (west coast games are beyond me with a 6 AM Eastern start to my work day).

I think I watched a good chunk of other teams play as well.

Since I WASN'T watching as much of the Yanks, I watched/listened to a LOT of other teams last year. Every nationally televised game (either on MLB, ESPN, or FOX) that I knew was on, I watched. I listened to games ALL THE TIME on Sirius, when in the car driving anywhere.  I watch a LOT of baseball from end of February til November.

For me, I am not sitting on the edge of my seat staring at a tv, writing down every stat, sweating every moment of the game

Yeah, that's different. When the games are on, especially Yanks games, I'm pretty focused. Especially late in the games. I'm not sweating every pitch, but close enough.

And I'm a stats guy. Professional hazard, I guess....

Lots I just have on in the back ground of life

Other teams games, this is true.  Especially the ones on the radio.....but even then, I'll get sucked in.

Lots I just have on the radio

Lots I watch with total focus

Lots I don't

Uh huh

I attended 15 live games last year

Last year was the first year we didn't do an MLB game in....IDK how long. At least since 2008. Maybe more like 2004.

We did go see our state minor league team a half dozen times. We'll go more this year, as their new stadium opens, which is like 30 min away (and not an hour).

I've already got 3 Yanks games bought for this year.  Probably pick up 2 or 3 more later in the season once we know who's terrible, and I can get cheapies via stub hub. Might tag along with a buddy who gets to use corp season tickets for a couple more.

15 just isn't practical for me. I'm married, with 3 kids, and 2.5 hours away from the stadium.  That's a game every other week. At YS prices, I'd be bankrupt....and divorced.  Plus, I can drink my own beer at home.

Nothing better than watching a ball game in the summer live.

Agree.  I probably, between Little League, High School, Minor League games, and MLB games see 60+ games a year.  For me, there is nothing better on a warm afternoon/evening than sitting at a ball field. Nothing.

But I am not sitting on the edge of my seat for every play.  Its baseball.  Walking around a stadium, socializing, drinking beer, eating, random cheering and booing

Um...yes and no (for me).  I'm into the game, play to play, and do all that stuff.  Because the pre game and innings breaks afford more than enough time to do all that.  Hell, even when we truck the kids up to get ice cream, I'm watching the monitors.

Baseball is one of the few sports that has never really changed anything.  Its where if you actually like stats, they actually mean something in this sport as compared to hockey

That's the illusion.  In fact, they've changed LOTs, from field dimensions to mound heights to ball make up to bat construction. They've made defensive and offensive rules, back and forth, through the ages, effecting strike zones, slides, base stealing, etc They've added replay.  Baseball is SLOWER to evolve...I grant you..but this idea that "nothing ever changes...so nothing should ever change" is simply not true.

I agree on the stats thing..they've done everything to preserve the sanctity of those stats, and that's fine.  THIS change is so minor, I'm not sure what the ire is. It won't change stats. As you've pointed out, the overall effect on game time is low.  It would prevent 4 to 6 pitches being thrown in a game WITH an intentional walk, which isn't going to really effect work load much.  And it's literally taking a 1% chance of "something" occurring out of the game.  Meh....doesn't bother me.

I love being out at my cottage at the lake and having a game on my outdoor speakers.  It could last for 5 hours for all I care.  They can fiddle around with everything.  Part of the fun of listening to a ball game on the radio is listening to all the filler stories they come up with.

Yup, in my backyard, with my smoker running and a cold one in my hands. Heaven.

[TheBaconman]

hahaha even this pointless banter has gotten me pumped to watch the Jays beat those evil Yankees.

The Yankees are so bad they even have a criminal as a closer pitcher now. 

[pilferk]

hahaha even this pointless banter has gotten me pumped to watch the Jays beat those evil Yankees.

The Yankees are so bad they even have a criminal as a closer pitcher now. 

Criminals are convicted, not accused. Just sayin'.  

And, FYI:

They'll be fun to watch this year...lots of youth.  I don't know if they'll be all that good, but they'll be fun to watch!

You got a LOT more to worry about in the Red Sox.....

[TheBaconman]

hahaha even this pointless banter has gotten me pumped to watch the Jays beat those evil Yankees.

The Yankees are so bad they even have a criminal as a closer pitcher now. 

Criminals are convicted, not accused. Just sayin'.  

And, FYI:

They'll be fun to watch this year...lots of youth.  I don't know if they'll be all that good, but they'll be fun to watch!

You got a LOT more to worry about in the Red Sox.....

Injuries I feel will be the biggest Jays worry this year.  Not to mention lack of depth.   

I am booked to fly in to see the Jays in Toronto in May vs Rangers and they July in Seattle.  If I can swing it fly back out to Toronto in Aug with the kidos.  Its not the price of the games that is expensive, its the frigging cost of downtown hotels in these major cities that is just crazy!   

[pilferk]

First spring training games today!!!!!

[pilferk]

I'm watching baseball, it's near 70 degrees...the only thing missing is a beer, and the smell of grilling meat!