NBA Playoffs 2016

[GeorgeSteele]

I'm not so sure that the Warriors actually improved.  Durant is by far > than Barnes+Bogut, no question.  But for this particular team where scoring was already in abundance, are they actually better by adding more scoring but losing defense and an interior presence that they now no longer have much of with Bogut and Barnes now gone? 

[pilferk]

I'm not so sure that the Warriors actually improved.  Durant is by far > than Barnes+Bogut, no question.  But for this particular team where scoring was already in abundance, are they actually better by adding more scoring but losing defense and an interior presence that they now no longer have much of with Bogut and Barnes now gone? 

Do you think they really lost defense? I'm not so sure....

[GeorgeSteele]

I'm not so sure that the Warriors actually improved.  Durant is by far > than Barnes+Bogut, no question.  But for this particular team where scoring was already in abundance, are they actually better by adding more scoring but losing defense and an interior presence that they now no longer have much of with Bogut and Barnes now gone? 

Do you think they really lost defense? I'm not so sure....

Interior defense for sure.  When GS lost Bogut in the finals, Lebron and Irving had much easier paths driving to the basket. 

As for perimeter defense, that's not as straightforward.  Durant is a very good perimeter defender, better than Barnes I think (but who is also very good on D).  But... there's something to be said for having your primary defender not be a primary scorer (like a Tony Allen).  Non-scoring defenders are less hesitant to use their 6 fouls during the game, take charges, and can use all their focus/energy on guarding the other team's best scorer without concerning themselves about getting their points on the offensive end.  On the other hand, big-time scorers who can also play D, like Durant, often don't switch to clampdown D until the 4th quarters of tight games. 

[pilferk]

I hated the whole Lebron "decision". He couldn't have handled it worse, but the cupboard was bare in Cleveland when he left, the roster was atrocious.

Durant had a team to win with, they choked away a 3-1 lead to ..... Of all teams the Warriors! Not to mention Durant played horribly in those final three games it's not like he played great and his teammates couldn't help him over the hump.

Then you join them ?? I hate it ... He's a free agent he can do what he feels is best for him but it looks so bad...I really feel bad for that 12 year old in Oklahoma right now.

You gotta wonder if Durant knows/knew/strongly suspected that Westbrook is also planning to leave.  If he did, that sheds a whole new light on this....because, if Westbrook goes, Durant is looking at the exact same situation, really, that Lebron was when he left Cleveland.

Or, maybe the fact Westbrook WOULDN"T share his plans with KD was just enough uncertainty (and said enough about their relationship) to push him out the door.

KD COULD have signed a 1+1 deal like other stars are, and stayed one more in OKC.  But he said it: He really, really, really didn't want to have to do that.  He wanted to plan long term.  And I can understand why you'd want to start whatever you're gonna start NOW.

As for it being GSW..blame the NBA for that one, honestly.  If there were no such thing as Max contracts (but still a cap), the primary concern of a player wouldn't be "where can I win rings".  Once you remove the ability to compete based purely on $$, especially now with the crazy $$ for a max level player (where the Bird rules become a whole lot less compelling), you basically have 2 things for the top guys: Winning and chemistry (and maybe, to a lesser extent, outside marketing opportunities).  So it's either come here to win rings...or come here to play with your friends/in a system you like.

This is almost always gonna lead to "superteams".  You're gonna have top guys who, when given the opportunity, are going to choose the easier path to the trophy.  That's not a knock on them, IMHO.  If that's what's driving you, you'd be STUPID not to do it.  You think they should do it for the challenge? Pfffft...in your professional life...you have two choices, and both pay ridiculous money, using the same skill sets.  In one, you have ample support and much more realistic chances of achieving your goals.  The other you're gonna have to work twice as hard, twice as long, and take on twice the responsibility for, ultimately, the same outcome.

You can say choosing the 2nd shows more character, more heart, more determination..but at the end of the day, in 30 years, they're gonna be talking about the number of successful projects you completed. Nobody is going to remember whether you martyred yourself or not.

[pilferk]

I'm not so sure that the Warriors actually improved.  Durant is by far > than Barnes+Bogut, no question.  But for this particular team where scoring was already in abundance, are they actually better by adding more scoring but losing defense and an interior presence that they now no longer have much of with Bogut and Barnes now gone? 

Do you think they really lost defense? I'm not so sure....

Interior defense for sure.  When GS lost Bogut in the finals, Lebron and Irving had much easier paths driving to the basket. 

As for perimeter defense, that's not as straightforward.  Durant is a very good perimeter defender, better than Barnes I think (but who is also very good on D).  But... there's something to be said for having your primary defender not be a primary scorer (like a Tony Allen).  Non-scoring defenders are less hesitant to use their 6 fouls during the game, take charges, and can use all their focus/energy on guarding the other team's best scorer without concerning themselves about getting their points on the offensive end.  On the other hand, big-time scorers who can also play D, like Durant, often don't switch to clampdown D until the 4th quarters of tight games. 

They're probably going to go small, a lot..but I think that works for them.

You're basically trading Barnes for Durant, and Bogut for Green (because he moves to the interior).  I actually think that's a pretty good trade off, in terms of defense. Also, you have Iguodala, who's either going to play some 4 (while Green plays some 5), or some 2. He's a VERY good perimeter defender, and that would free up Durant to do some damage in the middle (and he IS a good interior defender against guys like Lebron, because of his size). Ezeli is actually not a bad interior defender, either...he just can't score the ball. He'll clog the lane pretty well. MAYBE as well as Bogut.


I wouldn't say they got BETTER on defense...but I don't think they got appreciably worse, either.  And the are going to score like 120 a night.  It's gonna be like watching the Suns, back in the day.

[GeorgeSteele]

They're probably going to go small, a lot..but I think that works for them.

You're basically trading Barnes for Durant, and Bogut for Green (because he moves to the interior).  I actually think that's a pretty good trade off, in terms of defense. Also, you have Iguodala, who's either going to play some 4 (while Green plays some 5), or some 2. He's a VERY good perimeter defender, and that would free up Durant to do some damage in the middle (and he IS a good interior defender against guys like Lebron, because of his size). Ezeli is actually not a bad interior defender, either...he just can't score the ball. He'll clog the lane pretty well. MAYBE as well as Bogut.


I wouldn't say they got BETTER on defense...but I don't think they got appreciably worse, either.  And the are going to score like 120 a night.  It's gonna be like watching the Suns, back in the day.

The small lineup with Green at the 5 worked great for them last year, but I think it's more effective in spurts than it would be if used more regularly, as Green might find himself in foul trouble more often.  I don't know about Ezeli, I think he's quite a drop-off defending the paint compared to Bogut.  I have a hard time seeing him last more than 15 minutes per game before he collects his 6 fouls.  But maybe that's all they'll need from him.

[JAEBALL]

I hated the whole Lebron "decision". He couldn't have handled it worse, but the cupboard was bare in Cleveland when he left, the roster was atrocious.

Durant had a team to win with, they choked away a 3-1 lead to ..... Of all teams the Warriors! Not to mention Durant played horribly in those final three games it's not like he played great and his teammates couldn't help him over the hump.

Then you join them ?? I hate it ... He's a free agent he can do what he feels is best for him but it looks so bad...I really feel bad for that 12 year old in Oklahoma right now.

You gotta wonder if Durant knows/knew/strongly suspected that Westbrook is also planning to leave.  If he did, that sheds a whole new light on this....because, if Westbrook goes, Durant is looking at the exact same situation, really, that Lebron was when he left Cleveland.

Or, maybe the fact Westbrook WOULDN"T share his plans with KD was just enough uncertainty (and said enough about their relationship) to push him out the door.

KD COULD have signed a 1+1 deal like other stars are, and stayed one more in OKC.  But he said it: He really, really, really didn't want to have to do that.  He wanted to plan long term.  And I can understand why you'd want to start whatever you're gonna start NOW.

As for it being GSW..blame the NBA for that one, honestly.  If there were no such thing as Max contracts (but still a cap), the primary concern of a player wouldn't be "where can I win rings".  Once you remove the ability to compete based purely on $$, especially now with the crazy $$ for a max level player (where the Bird rules become a whole lot less compelling), you basically have 2 things for the top guys: Winning and chemistry (and maybe, to a lesser extent, outside marketing opportunities).  So it's either come here to win rings...or come here to play with your friends/in a system you like.

This is almost always gonna lead to "superteams".  You're gonna have top guys who, when given the opportunity, are going to choose the easier path to the trophy.  That's not a knock on them, IMHO.  If that's what's driving you, you'd be STUPID not to do it.  You think they should do it for the challenge? Pfffft...in your professional life...you have two choices, and both pay ridiculous money, using the same skill sets.  In one, you have ample support and much more realistic chances of achieving your goals.  The other you're gonna have to work twice as hard, twice as long, and take on twice the responsibility for, ultimately, the same outcome.

You can say choosing the 2nd shows more character, more heart, more determination..but at the end of the day, in 30 years, they're gonna be talking about the number of successful projects you completed. Nobody is going to remember whether you martyred yourself or not.

All fair ... It's just they he JUST lost to them... It feels ... Wrong.

Agreed 100 percent about Westbrook ... If he had told him look I'm definitely staying too that might have changed things.

[pilferk]

All fair ... It's just they he JUST lost to them... It feels ... Wrong.

Agreed 100 percent about Westbrook ... If he had told him look I'm definitely staying too that might have changed things.

I suspect you're a "classicalist" NBA fan (and, FYI, so am I).

But it's not the same NBA as it was in the 80's and 90's.  It's not the NBA where Bird legit hated Magic, and Lambeer was ready to rip the head off of MJ at a moments notice.

These guys are FRIENDS outside (and sometimes during pregame) the arena.  They are going out together, and spending summer's together, and going to each others weddings.  KD, Curry, and Iguodala were all team mates on the US National team where they spent a crap ton of time together.

The '92 dream team, as amazing as it was, was (IMHO) the beginning of the end of that era.  That, and the proliferation of National AAU ball, right from the get go (which really started around the same time).  These guys now grow up together, and play as teammates together, off and on their whole lives.  They don't view it the same way you and I do anymore, and I don't think they're going back.  Switching teams is about benjamins and legacy.  It doesn't matter (to them) that they JUST lost to them.  They're not "the enemy".  They're just a bunch of guys in different colored shirts who played better for 4 games.

That's why I can't take the piss out of KD for the move.  20 years ago? Damn right.  But not today, because he's just doing what everyone else is, and continuing the trend.  There are no "traitors" anymore in basketball...because the NBA has become "the League".  They're members of "The League", not of their team.

[pilferk]

They're probably going to go small, a lot..but I think that works for them.

You're basically trading Barnes for Durant, and Bogut for Green (because he moves to the interior).  I actually think that's a pretty good trade off, in terms of defense. Also, you have Iguodala, who's either going to play some 4 (while Green plays some 5), or some 2. He's a VERY good perimeter defender, and that would free up Durant to do some damage in the middle (and he IS a good interior defender against guys like Lebron, because of his size). Ezeli is actually not a bad interior defender, either...he just can't score the ball. He'll clog the lane pretty well. MAYBE as well as Bogut.


I wouldn't say they got BETTER on defense...but I don't think they got appreciably worse, either.  And the are going to score like 120 a night.  It's gonna be like watching the Suns, back in the day.

The small lineup with Green at the 5 worked great for them last year, but I think it's more effective in spurts than it would be if used more regularly, as Green might find himself in foul trouble more often.  I don't know about Ezeli, I think he's quite a drop-off defending the paint compared to Bogut.  I have a hard time seeing him last more than 15 minutes per game before he collects his 6 fouls.  But maybe that's all they'll need from him.

I think 20 min out of Ezeli is probably enough to make the difference on defense.  They'll go small the other 20 min per, which will probably be more effective anyway.

[faldor]

I'm not so sure that the Warriors actually improved.  Durant is by far > than Barnes+Bogut, no question.  But for this particular team where scoring was already in abundance, are they actually better by adding more scoring but losing defense and an interior presence that they now no longer have much of with Bogut and Barnes now gone? 

Do you think they really lost defense? I'm not so sure....

Interior defense for sure.  When GS lost Bogut in the finals, Lebron and Irving had much easier paths driving to the basket. 

As for perimeter defense, that's not as straightforward.  Durant is a very good perimeter defender, better than Barnes I think (but who is also very good on D).  But... there's something to be said for having your primary defender not be a primary scorer (like a Tony Allen).  Non-scoring defenders are less hesitant to use their 6 fouls during the game, take charges, and can use all their focus/energy on guarding the other team's best scorer without concerning themselves about getting their points on the offensive end.  On the other hand, big-time scorers who can also play D, like Durant, often don't switch to clampdown D until the 4th quarters of tight games. 

They're not done building their roster though. Zaza Pachulia and David West were added, and there'll be other moves. I think they'll be able to get serviceable guys to fill out the back end of their roster.

[faldor]

All fair ... It's just they he JUST lost to them... It feels ... Wrong.

Agreed 100 percent about Westbrook ... If he had told him look I'm definitely staying too that might have changed things.

I suspect you're a "classicalist" NBA fan (and, FYI, so am I).

But it's not the same NBA as it was in the 80's and 90's.  It's not the NBA where Bird legit hated Magic, and Lambeer was ready to rip the head off of MJ at a moments notice.

These guys are FRIENDS outside (and sometimes during pregame) the arena.  They are going out together, and spending summer's together, and going to each others weddings.  KD, Curry, and Iguodala were all team mates on the US National team where they spent a crap ton of time together.

The '92 dream team, as amazing as it was, was (IMHO) the beginning of the end of that era.  That, and the proliferation of National AAU ball, right from the get go (which really started around the same time).  These guys now grow up together, and play as teammates together, off and on their whole lives.  They don't view it the same way you and I do anymore, and I don't think they're going back.  Switching teams is about benjamins and legacy.  It doesn't matter (to them) that they JUST lost to them.  They're not "the enemy".  They're just a bunch of guys in different colored shirts who played better for 4 games.

That's why I can't take the piss out of KD for the move.  20 years ago? Damn right.  But not today, because he's just doing what everyone else is, and continuing the trend.  There are no "traitors" anymore in basketball...because the NBA has become "the League".  They're members of "The League", not of their team.

I think that's the reason Durant's move doesn't upset me. It's what the NBA has become, and I can't fault a guy for wanting to win. Credit to GS for building that team from the ground up and making it a desired destination for star players.

[tim_m]

So Wade is going to the Bulls.

[faldor]

So Wade is going to the Bulls.

Figured he might go to Cleveland for another shot at a title. He's a Chicago guy though right? So, he can finish his career at home. Not much of a chance to win there however.

[GeorgeSteele]

So Wade is going to the Bulls.

Figured he might go to Cleveland for another shot at a title. He's a Chicago guy though right? So, he can finish his career at home. Not much of a chance to win there however.

I don't think Cleveland offered him anything, at least not anything close to what Chicago did (Miami and Denver were the other comparable offers).

Apparently, he's very bitter about how the negotiations went down at Miami.  He wanted a 3rd year from them, which they refused to do for a 34-yr old who was lucky to be getting 2 years.  But his bitterness stems from the fact that he's left about $25M on the table over his career in order to help them with cap space over the years (mainly with Bosh and Lebron).  Think of all the players out there who have had or have max contracts.  Wade has never had a max contract. 

On the one hand, I suppose it's foolish for him to expect the team would ever make him whole or even partly compensate him for that sacrifice.  The old mantra is that you don't pay for past performance.  However, if a team doesn't at least partly pay for past $ sacrifice, how can they ever in the future convince any player to make salary sacrifices for the team's cap flexibility?  This may turn out to be short-sighted for Miami.

[pilferk]

So Wade is going to the Bulls.

Figured he might go to Cleveland for another shot at a title. He's a Chicago guy though right? So, he can finish his career at home. Not much of a chance to win there however.

I don't think Cleveland offered him anything, at least not anything close to what Chicago did (Miami and Denver were the other comparable offers).

Apparently, he's very bitter about how the negotiations went down at Miami.  He wanted a 3rd year from them, which they refused to do for a 34-yr old who was lucky to be getting 2 years.  But his bitterness stems from the fact that he's left about $25M on the table over his career in order to help them with cap space over the years (mainly with Bosh and Lebron).  Think of all the players out there who have had or have max contracts.  Wade has never had a max contract. 

On the one hand, I suppose it's foolish for him to expect the team would ever make him whole or even partly compensate him for that sacrifice.  The old mantra is that you don't pay for past performance.  However, if a team doesn't at least partly pay for past $ sacrifice, how can they ever in the future convince any player to make salary sacrifices for the team's cap flexibility?  This may turn out to be short-sighted for Miami.

The thing is, reportedly (and this is why he left, and is so pissed at Pat Riley) RILEY assured him that he would be "taken care of" by the team, to help make up for those shortfalls, in the past.  And Wade felt it was time for that to happen, with the 3rd year sort of being the "make good" year.  When Wade expressed that opinion, Riley basically went and hid, and stopped talking to Wade directly.

Riley conveyed that he disagreed, to Wade's agents, and wanted to push it off, basically saying we'll do you like Mark has done Dirk.  We'll keep throwing 1 year deals at you, for lesser amounts, as long as you can play.  That, apparently, wasn't what Wade considered getting "taken care of", and wasn't the kind of thing they'd discussed in the past.  But since Riley refused to actually talk directly to Wade (I'm assuming because he didn't want reports of someone yelling "you're a big fat liar" at him behind closed doors to circulate), and discuss those previous conversations directly, Wade felt both disrespected AND lied to, and that pretty much was the end of it.

So Wade LITERALLY decided to take his ball and go home.  He could have gone to Denver for more money (2/50, reportedly) but felt, if he was gonna leave Miami, he was going to go back to his hometown, giving them a discount.

I can't really fault the guy, if that's what happened.  I wouldn't trust Riley to "make good" in 2 years, or 3 years, or whatever, either.

And I don't think asking for 3 at 66 was too big of an ask, from Miami, considering his level of play last year.  34 or not, he was effective all year, was able to rebound from the injuries and play tons of minutes, and he got them to the 2nd round vs Toronto and went 7 games.

The buy is basically tied for first in South Florida sports with Marino.  While I'm not a big believer in the "Kobe contract" either, this wasn't exactly that.  More like Jeter, at this point.

[GeorgeSteele]

^ Wow, if you can't trust Pat Riley, who can you trust?   

The buy is basically tied for first in South Florida sports with Marino. 

Laces OUT!

[Axl4Prez2004]

^ Wow, if you can't trust Pat Riley, who can you trust?   

The buy is basically tied for first in South Florida sports with Marino. 

Laces OUT!

Ha!  I hadn't heard a Ray Finkle reference for a LOOOONG time!  Nice!   

[AxlsMainMan]

Ray Allen is interested in joining the Warriors or Cavaliers.

[pilferk]

Duncan is announcing his retirement!!

To me, the most underrated player of his generation. Never really got the highlights or kudos, but the guy has rings for all 5 fingers.

[pilferk]

.....and...it looks like Draymond Green was just arrested in Michigan on assault charges.