2016 NFL Season

[C0ma]

And I don't think Brady (Montana) could hack being their own play caller (Peyton got 2 sideline calls, plus situational audible authority (OMAHA)...Marino had similar (slightly broader) options in the Shula system).  Both the Pats and (especially) the 49ers offense is/was pretty heavily scripted.

You obviously don't watch the Patriots much... Brady is most successful when running a hurry up no huddle calling his own plays and making multiple checks at the line. (He just doesn't do it in such a dramatic way with all the foot stomps, clapping, and arm waving).

I will just never get past Manning's playoff record, his teams were not bad and they lost many bad games in the playoffs to bubble teams. He has 9 one and done's and most of those seasons he and his team had 12 or more regular season wins. In several of those games he had multiple interceptions.

If I need a week 4 win in a dome while trying to set a regular season record... give me Peyton. If I need a win in January/February... I take Brady.

I refuse to accept the better team argument. Peyton played on teams with 12 or more wins 11 times. He has another 3 seasons where his team won at least 10 games. He had 1 Hall of Fame Receiver (Harrison) and another destined for the Hall in Reggie Wayne (14,345 yards and 1070 receptions) plus Edgerin James at RB in Indy, then Demaryius Thomas, Emmanuel Sanders, Julius Thomas, and Wes Welker... Marino gets to say he played on teams that were hot garbage for the later 2/3's of his career, but Peyton doesn't get that crutch. For some reason he doesn't come up big in the big game... even last year they won in spite of him. He had 141 yards, 1 Int and a 56.6 QB Rating in the Super Bowl.

In the 2 Giants Super Bowls Brady gave the Patriots a lead with a go ahead Touchdown with ~3 minutes left in each game and his defense couldn't hold on. The 2006 AFC Championship is about the only time I can remember Peyton driving late in a playoff game to win.

With all that said, he (Peyton) is the best pure passer I have seen in my lifetime. However I want wins, specifically post season wins.

In Boston in the late 90's early 2000's we had arguably the most dominant pitcher over a 5 year stretch in Pedro Martinez that I have ever seen, but he could never get it done in the post season (except for a Game 5 ALDS bullpen appearance against the Indians in 1999). I loved all of his 17+ strikeout games, pitching triple crowns, Cy Young's (should have been an MVP too if not for a NY sports writer), but I watched Pettitte pitch in October with a ton of jealous envy. It took Schilling to get them over the hump, but he wasn't half the pure pitcher that Pedro was... but they never would have won without him.

[pilferk]

You obviously don't watch the Patriots much... Brady is most successful when running a hurry up no huddle calling his own plays and making multiple checks at the line. (He just doesn't do it in such a dramatic way with all the foot stomps, clapping, and arm waving).

Every game they're not playing at the same time as the G-men.

And I understand their offense VERY well.

First 15 plays from scrimmage are scripted (that's per Bill).  During the Hurry up, Brady's calling (since circa 2006) from a list of 5 pre-scripted, sequenced, plays sent in at the start of the hurry up, and then based on the defense setup. He's not actually making a decision...it's all defined in the playbook. If the defense is this, they run this exact play.  He calls the occasional audible, but it's also prescripted and defined within the offense set up by the coaches...and it's exceedingly rare if you watch him in the hurry up.

He's not calling his own plays.  Not in the same way Peyton did (3 options, 2 audibles, and an out, every play of every game...and they all changed each play). It wasn't predefined, or scripted. He called them in the huddle, and (unless he saw fit) it wasn't defined which play to run against specific defensive formations.  He was literally the only guy in the league who did it, anymore.  Prior to him, it was Jim Kelly (and he 100% called his own stuff), I think. Farve did it occasionally, depending on situation (I think he called it Winter Blue or something like that, when he's switch the OC and team over).

Brady does not do the same thing. That earpiece, though...

I will just never get past Manning's playoff record, his teams were not bad and they lost many bad games in the playoffs to bubble teams. He has 9 one and done's and most of those seasons he and his team had 12 or more regular season wins. In several of those games he had multiple interceptions.

Playoffs are a small sample comparison. In every sport, but ESPECIALLY in football.  And, again, the QB is not entirely to blame (or get credit for) those outcomes.

You can't get past it because we're comparing to "your guy", who's had pretty good success in the playoffs, based on the talent on his roster, and the fact he has what I consider to be the greatest coach of the modern era....no matter how shady and close to the line he walks....and the fact Brady is REALLY, REALLY good. One of the immortals. Just...not Peyton.  Tom might be the most decorated QB, he might eventually be the winningest QB with the most rings.  That doesn't make him the BEST QB, anymore than having "the most rings" makes Bill Russel the greatest NBA player of all time (nope, still Jordan).

If I need a week 4 win in a dome while trying to set a regular season record... give me Peyton. If I need a win in January/February... I take Brady.

Because you're a Pats guy.  Which is fine.  But put Peyton on the Pats, with Bill, in January or February (or against the Giants in the Superbowl) and I'll take Peyton.  Every day and twice on Sunday. Because the stats tell me I should, and by eyes don't disagree, rather than a small sample size, who's outcome can be skewed by other influences (which...well, keep reading).

Now, if the choice is Brady and the Pats vs Peyton and the Colts (as long as it's not 2006), I'd take Brady and the Pats.  But it's pretty close and if I'm PLAYING Peyton and the Colts (or the Giants in the Superbowl...sorry, I couldn't resist)...I am no way confident in the outcome. I'd give it a 60-40 split, because the Colts have the better QB, and the Pats have more talent, better fits in their system, and better coaching.  That buys them their advantage.

I refuse to accept the better team argument. Peyton played on teams with 12 or more wins 11 times. He has another 3 seasons where his team won at least 10 games. He had 1 Hall of Fame Receiver (Harrison) and another destined for the Hall in Reggie Wayne (14,345 yards and 1070 receptions) plus Edgerin James at RB in Indy, then Demaryius Thomas, Emmanuel Sanders, Julius Thomas, and Wes Welker... Marino gets to say he played on teams that were hot garbage for the later 2/3's of his career, but Peyton doesn't get that crutch. For some reason he doesn't come up big in the big game... even last year they won in spite of him. He had 141 yards, 1 Int and a 56.6 QB Rating in the Super Bowl.

You can 'refuse' to accept it, but the stats say it's true. 

Peytons teams weren't hot garbage.  But they weren't the Pats either.  Again, coaching, FO, and other personell, has a lot to do with those outcomes.  Pats are masters of taking guys who look oddball, and fitting them into a perfect system.  Brady, himself, is a good example of it!  You're basically saying coaching and FO doesn't matter, at all....and neither do the other 45 players who dress every game. Pats have the best in the league, in both coaching and FO (largely because Bill calls most of the shots and he's a genius). You're pissing on their contributions.

AND you're judging a QB based entirely on wins, when there are 40 other guys out there who have effect on that outcome.  And a large one.

In the 2 Giants Super Bowls Brady gave the Patriots a lead with a go ahead Touchdown with ~3 minutes left in each game and his defense couldn't hold on. The 2006 AFC Championship is about the only time I can remember Peyton driving late in a playoff game to win.

Read that first line.  Read it again.  Read it one more time.

Thanks for proving my point, entirely.  I sort of put that up there figuring you'd bite.  We now agree: the QB had very little effect on the outcome of those two Giants superbowl games.  But yet..they count as losses, right? So it's fair to penalize Brady for those losses.  That's been your argument since we started.  It's 100% on the QB...every outcome, win or lose.

But...you just reversed course, seemingly, when it was YOUR guy who was getting penalized for those outcomes. 

Case. In. Point.

With all that said, he (Peyton) is the best pure passer I have seen in my lifetime. However I want wins, specifically post season wins.

But that's not the metric for "best" at a position.  That's the metric for "winningest".  And the QB isn't the ONLY guy to effect those outcomes.

In Boston in the late 90's early 2000's we had arguably the most dominant pitcher over a 5 year stretch in Pedro Martinez that I have ever seen, but he could never get it done in the post season (except for a Game 5 ALDS bullpen appearance against the Indians in 1999). I loved all of his 17+ strikeout games, pitching triple crowns, Cy Young's (should have been an MVP too if not for a NY sports writer), but I watched Pettitte pitch in October with a ton of jealous envy. It took Schilling to get them over the hump, but he wasn't half the pure pitcher that Pedro was... but they never would have won without him.

So, you're saying you think Pettite was the better pitcher over Pedro?

Yup, that pretty much says it all.

Because on no planet is that true.

Ditto Shilling vs Pedro.

[pilferk]

The fact i just had to defend pedro martinez makes me think the world is about to end.

Dogs and cats, living together...mass hysteria.

[faldor]

I can't believe I missed out on a good Brady vs. Manning debate. Let me just interject on two points. Peyton played a vast majority of his career in a climate controlled dome on a fast track with an offense built to score a ton of points to make up for their often lackluster defense. Brady plays most of his games outdoors, quite a bit in cold and inclement weather. I find it hard to have a fair comparison due to those factors. As Belichick once famously said, "stats are for losers".

And let's not go nuts about the job Matt Cassel did the year he filled in for Brady. He took over virtually the same team that went 16-0 the year before and won 5 less games against a relatively soft schedule. They went 4-0 that year against the AFC West, who didn't have a single team finish above .500. They went 3-1 against the NFC West, whose best team was 9-7 that year. They also beat a 2 win Chiefs that year, the 7-9 Bills twice, the 9-7 Jets, and the 11-5 Dolphins. So they had 3 wins over teams with more than 9 wins. Their other 8 wins were against teams .500 or below. They were just 5-3 at home that year. Brady doesn't typically lose home games, and I'd venture to guess they probably would've won at least 2 or 3 more games. So, it was still an admirable job by Cassel, but let's not act like they didn't skip a beat. They did.

Now the following season, they were just not a great football team. 2 years removed from 16-0, not nearly the same team. The defense was on the decline ever since 2004, but that year was just about rock bottom for them. Gone were Bruschi, Harrison, Vrabel, and Seymour. Their DB's were poor. They were just not that good. So the 10-6 record was not a huge surprise.

So it's not so easy to say Manning is better than Brady because he had better stats. Or Brady is a system QB because Cassel won 11 games (though technically Brady gets credit for the first win that year) and a year later Brady only won 10. There's a lot more to it than those statements on the surface.

With that being said, I'm a little less scared about life after Brady after seeing these first 3 games. Especially witnessing what Jimmy G was in the process of doing against the Dolphins. Maybe it won't be so bad after all.

[Axl4Prez2004]

I am firmly in the camp that Brady will go down in history as the best quarterback of all time, period.
Yep, better than Montana...very difficult to compare across eras, but I'm willing to do just that.
...and no, I'm not a Pats fan.   

[AxlsMainMan]

Roethlisberger - 21/26, 300 YDS, 5 TDS

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Jets suck....

So much for a good year.

[AxlsMainMan]

The Steelers are the best team in the NFL (yes, even better than you, New England)

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/the-steelers-are-the-best-team-in-the-nfl-yes-even-better-than-you-new-england-101116

[Axl4Prez2004]

The Steelers are the best team in the NFL (yes, even better than you, New England)

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/the-steelers-are-the-best-team-in-the-nfl-yes-even-better-than-you-new-england-101116

I disagree.  Steelers are #2.
New England's the best, period.
As a Vikes fan, sure I'm happy being the only undefeated team in the NFL...but...I am realistic.
Here's my power poll right now:
1- Patsies  3-1 without Brady, now Brady's back.  Let the anger tighten those spirals Tom!
2- Steelers  improve the D, and they could be #1.
3- Seahawks, once Russell's back to full strength, watch out.
4- Broncos, fluke loss to SD.  Their D will make them a tough out in the playoffs.
5- Vikes  if only Adrian hadn't gotten hurt...Bradford was an obvious upgrade over Teddy, but that's only if Sam stays healthy. 

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Jets still suck 

[Muerto]

Cowboys come back for 29-23 OT Win over Eagles 

[AxlsMainMan]

Cowboys come back for 29-23 OT Win over Eagles 

They have to be the early favorite to win the NFC.

[Muerto]

Behind their rookies, Ezekiel Elliott and Dak Prescott, the Cowboys come back to down the Steelers, 35-30. 

[Muerto]

The Cowboys had plenty to be thankful for on Thursday, recording their 10th straight win in defeating the Redskins, 31-26 in the annual Thanksgiving Day classic. 

[AxlsMainMan]

Steelers and Ravens on Christmas Day should be a slobberknocker

[TheBaconman]

My mighty Raiders are going to win it all this year!

[C0ma]

My mighty Raiders are going to win it all this year!

They look like a nice little team. The issue is their coach is a mental midget and their defense (except for Mack) is a disaster. I see them wilting in January.

I think based on schedules it is unlikely they win out, which probably leaves New England as the #1 seed with home field throughout. I don't see Oakland going into Foxboro in January and winning.

Brady led offenses are like 8-1 or 9-1 against Jack Del Rio coached defenses. His only win was with the 2013 Broncos which went to the Super Bowl that year with an amazing team. I feel like I am missing a game after the 2013 (2014) AFC Championship, but after that game Brady had a 121 rating with 18 TD's and 0 Int's against those defenses, and statistically this Oakland Defense is weaker than a lot of the Del Rio defenses Brady has faced.

[AxlsMainMan]

My mighty Raiders are going to win it all this year!

They look like a nice little team. The issue is their coach is a mental midget and their defense (except for Mack) is a disaster. I see them wilting in January.

I think based on schedules it is unlikely they win out, which probably leaves New England as the #1 seed with home field throughout. I don't see Oakland going into Foxboro in January and winning.

Brady led offenses are like 8-1 or 9-1 against Jack Del Rio coached defenses. His only win was with the 2013 Broncos which went to the Super Bowl that year with an amazing team. I feel like I am missing a game after the 2013 (2014) AFC Championship, but after that game Brady had a 121 rating with 18 TD's and 0 Int's against those defenses, and statistically this Oakland Defense is weaker than a lot of the Del Rio defenses Brady has faced.

This reads rather smug in light of your Cheatriots looking extremely pedestrian against Landry freaking Jones and a depleted Steelers' D..

[C0ma]

My mighty Raiders are going to win it all this year!

They look like a nice little team. The issue is their coach is a mental midget and their defense (except for Mack) is a disaster. I see them wilting in January.

I think based on schedules it is unlikely they win out, which probably leaves New England as the #1 seed with home field throughout. I don't see Oakland going into Foxboro in January and winning.

Brady led offenses are like 8-1 or 9-1 against Jack Del Rio coached defenses. His only win was with the 2013 Broncos which went to the Super Bowl that year with an amazing team. I feel like I am missing a game after the 2013 (2014) AFC Championship, but after that game Brady had a 121 rating with 18 TD's and 0 Int's against those defenses, and statistically this Oakland Defense is weaker than a lot of the Del Rio defenses Brady has faced.

This reads rather smug in light of your Cheatriots looking extremely pedestrian against Landry freaking Jones and a depleted Steelers' D..

I doesn't read smug... it is smug and for good reason. They will be the #1 seed, it's what they do. I would worry about Pittsburgh in Foxboro, but not Oakland. Oakland does not have the Defense to win a game in Foxboro in January and their coach is terrible.

As far as the game in October... The Pats gave up a single TD, Brady threw for 2 and Blount ran for 1. It was a double digit win, I'm sure the rest of the league hopes to look that pedestrian (like the first 3 teams for example that played Garoppolo and Brissett).

[faldor]

My mighty Raiders are going to win it all this year!

They look like a nice little team. The issue is their coach is a mental midget and their defense (except for Mack) is a disaster. I see them wilting in January.

I think based on schedules it is unlikely they win out, which probably leaves New England as the #1 seed with home field throughout. I don't see Oakland going into Foxboro in January and winning.

Brady led offenses are like 8-1 or 9-1 against Jack Del Rio coached defenses. His only win was with the 2013 Broncos which went to the Super Bowl that year with an amazing team. I feel like I am missing a game after the 2013 (2014) AFC Championship, but after that game Brady had a 121 rating with 18 TD's and 0 Int's against those defenses, and statistically this Oakland Defense is weaker than a lot of the Del Rio defenses Brady has faced.

This reads rather smug in light of your Cheatriots looking extremely pedestrian against Landry freaking Jones and a depleted Steelers' D..

I see your team is deflating balls now. Or is it just the weather? I forget what narrative we're supposed to run with these days.