Anyone else prefer CD to the UYIs?

[C0ma]

I find most people employing the term "overproduced" don't have an inkling of what they are talking about.

The people who pieced it together did amazing things... the issue is the layers weren't/aren't needed. The title track is the easiest to point to... there is a nearly 1 minute completely unnecessary intro before the first of five guitar players strikes the first musical chord of the song. Every person to strap on a guitar from 2000-2008 was recorded for the song... Even Tommy has called the whole thing overkill. Frankly I find it amazing it is as good as it is with the bloat of it all.

It's why I hope that if the rumors of Slash and Duff recording CD era tracks are true, they drop all 'former' members of the process for the 2016 line up. Everyone can get their credit in the liner notes, but it needs to be trimmed back this time.

[EmilyGNR]

I find most people employing the term "overproduced" don't have an inkling of what they are talking about.

The people who pieced it together did amazing things... the issue is the layers weren't/aren't needed. The title track is the easiest to point to... there is a nearly 1 minute completely unnecessary intro before the first of five guitar players strikes the first musical chord of the song. Every person to strap on a guitar from 2000-2008 was recorded for the song... Even Tommy has called the whole thing overkill. Frankly I find it amazing it is as good as it is with the bloat of it all.

It's why I hope that if the rumors of Slash and Duff recording CD era tracks are true, they drop all 'former' members of the process for the 2016 line up. Everyone can get their credit in the liner notes, but it needs to be trimmed back this time.

It is merely your opinion that layers "weren't needed"

Apparently they were wanted, or the Album version wouldnt contain them.

Beautiful thing about creating, whether it is a painting or a song - you get to finish it the way you want to, regardless of what others in various levels of association or non-association may want or think.

[Voodoochild]

It is overproduced. But not the way people use to think.

Chinese Democracy has an intro? Big deal. Check the song One Vision from Queen, from which Axl clearly got inspired (and it has similar power chord riff after that). Nobody ever complained about that. But because you got to know the song without it, you think is "unnecessary".

CD also has multiple guitar players. Yes it true. Does the 5 guitarists play the very same thing at the very same time in the song? No. The power chord progression in the chorus and at the ending were Robin and Paul's work, while Bumble is riffing along and Bucket gets the leads througout those sections. It's not different from what Locomotive had it: only that instead of multiple players, the (at least 4) guitar tracks layered were all Slash.

At the same time, Catcher was completly rearranged adn there's no Brian May there. Also, no Buckethead or Richard. Why is that? It's just how they thought what the sound should have.

So the "problem" isn't about layers. It is the arrangement and the mixing. Which is very different from mastering, which is the subject of the Loudness Wars article Emily posted. Yeah, the album is really good at dynamics and sound levels, with not nearly as much compression as some other stuff, like Metallica's album from 2008 (forgot its name). And it's awesome to listen to CD with both good and bad earphones.

Mixing is another thing. It's about which layers do you think should pop out in the cohesive sound of the track. Should you put Paul Tobias guitar in SFTD as loud as Slash's? Should you bury Izzy's rhythm in almost every single track in Illusions? Those were all decisions made in the mixing board.

The arrangement in the other hand was kinda weird. It's not something they came up while playing and rehearsing.. It's the result of several years of sessions, but a lot of it sounded like it was worked on in the pre-mixing stage with the Pro Tools editing it. It was before the final mixes, but already with stuff recorded - hence why the demos had lots of the same performances/layers used in the final version. The only exceptions to me are the Bumblefoot and Frank's additions, which may have came out as they were rehearsing for the ongoing tour in 2006/07. Or maybe they were all ideas that those two came up with alone, but even in that case, it was after they had played half of those songs as a band on tour, which certainly changed their perspective.

IMHO, the mixing and arrangement are not as bad as people say. Maybe if they didn't know the songs and how long it took to release it, they would never think about them as that overproduced. I do think the mixing should have took the more traditional approach, tho, with the same pattern from AFD, Illusions and TSI - the lead guitar player always on the right side of the stereo, the rhythm on the left. Bass should be proeminent (that's a mixing issue I had with it). But that's just my personal feelings, I still love the sound of the album and its complexity.

[C0ma]

It is merely your opinion that layers "weren't needed"

Apparently they were wanted, or the Album version wouldnt contain them.

Beautiful thing about creating, whether it is a painting or a song - you get to finish it the way you want to, regardless of what others in various levels of association or non-association may want or think.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is my opinion that the sheer volume of the layers wasn't needed and not some irrefutable fact... BUT I would argue with your take that they were wanted, because at least Tommy Stinson doesn't agree with that assessment and has made it know via interveiw. If everyone in the band had their way this would have been released years earlier in a more organic format.

I just don't get the maniacal need to defend Chinese Democracy like it is the mystical Wyld Stallyns album that brought world peace from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It is a really good album, I think it could have been better (again in my opinion)... but I wouldn't put it at the top of any list and certainly not ahead of any of GnR's previous full length albums.

[Wooody]

It is merely your opinion that layers "weren't needed"

Apparently they were wanted, or the Album version wouldnt contain them.

Beautiful thing about creating, whether it is a painting or a song - you get to finish it the way you want to, regardless of what others in various levels of association or non-association may want or think.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is my opinion that the sheer volume of the layers wasn't needed and not some irrefutable fact... BUT I would argue with your take that they were wanted, because at least Tommy Stinson doesn't agree with that assessment and has made it know via interveiw. If everyone in the band had their way this would have been released years earlier in a more organic format.

I just don't get the maniacal need to defend Chinese Democracy like it is the mystical Wyld Stallyns album that brought world peace from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It is a really good album, I think it could have been better (again in my opinion)... but I wouldn't put it at the top of any list and certainly not ahead of any of GnR's previous full length albums.

I agree. I think there's something wrong with the album, and Tommy knows it too. But I think this time It was not a problem of Axl and the boys recording tons of layers because they thought they where cool, but rather because the label told them to keep working on the songs to make them sound cooler.

CD in its essence was raped by the label. Tommy said it, and when he said it, the impression I had that something was wrong with the songs made perfect sense.

[Voodoochild]

It was raped by the label when they were recording. By 2007, they could just not use every layer or rerecording once they got to the final mix. It was a creative decision probably made by Axl and Caram to release the album as it was in 2008 instead of strip it down to get a more organic feel.

[Wooody]

I do think Axl thought it was appropriate to go along with it, or find a middle ground.

That doesnt mean it was a good idea.

[EmilyGNR]

It is merely your opinion that layers "weren't needed"

Apparently they were wanted, or the Album version wouldnt contain them.

Beautiful thing about creating, whether it is a painting or a song - you get to finish it the way you want to, regardless of what others in various levels of association or non-association may want or think.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is my opinion that the sheer volume of the layers wasn't needed and not some irrefutable fact... BUT I would argue with your take that they were wanted, because at least Tommy Stinson doesn't agree with that assessment and has made it know via interveiw. If everyone in the band had their way this would have been released years earlier in a more organic format.

I just don't get the maniacal need to defend Chinese Democracy like it is the mystical Wyld Stallyns album that brought world peace from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It is a really good album, I think it could have been better (again in my opinion)... but I wouldn't put it at the top of any list and certainly not ahead of any of GnR's previous full length albums.

I agree. I think there's something wrong with the album, and Tommy knows it too. But I think this time It was not a problem of Axl and the boys recording tons of layers because they thought they where cool, but rather because the label told them to keep working on the songs to make them sound cooler.

CD in its essence was raped by the label. Tommy said it, and when he said it, the impression I had that something was wrong with the songs made perfect sense.

Tommy was only a band member at the time, he didn't mix, master or produce the album, so I take what he supposedly said with a grain of salt.

Axl/Caram produced- and it's an excellent album, despite some "fans" attempts to play amateur armchair critic and e-producer.

[EmilyGNR]

It is merely your opinion that layers "weren't needed"

Apparently they were wanted, or the Album version wouldnt contain them.

Beautiful thing about creating, whether it is a painting or a song - you get to finish it the way you want to, regardless of what others in various levels of association or non-association may want or think.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is my opinion that the sheer volume of the layers wasn't needed and not some irrefutable fact... BUT I would argue with your take that they were wanted, because at least Tommy Stinson doesn't agree with that assessment and has made it know via interveiw. If everyone in the band had their way this would have been released years earlier in a more organic format.

I just don't get the maniacal need to defend Chinese Democracy like it is the mystical Wyld Stallyns album that brought world peace from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It is a really good album, I think it could have been better (again in my opinion)... but I wouldn't put it at the top of any list and certainly not ahead of any of GnR's previous full length albums.

Tommy was only a band member, he didn't mix, master or produce the album.

I don't get the maniacal need of some "fans" to constantly find fault and attempt to play pretend producer, and offer up unsolicited amateur advice concerning mixing, mastering and production.

[Virolec]

It's easy to say the UYI records sound dated (and they do), but then again they were made 25 years ago.  Let's give it a quarter of a century before we make that call on CD.  Though, as has been said by many others, even by 2008 the industrial sounds were already in some respects a bit behind in the times. 

Not that sounding like your own time, or not being at the forefront is necessarily a bad thing.  One of my favourite songs on UYI is Double Talkin Jive, which is also the most distinctly early-90s sounding song you can imagine (the guitar sound for Slash's solo stands out). 

The thing about UYI is that because it has so many songs, and covers so many styles of music, it can sound kind of messy and inconsistent.  CD is more straightforward and focused. 

[Wooody]

It is merely your opinion that layers "weren't needed"

Apparently they were wanted, or the Album version wouldnt contain them.

Beautiful thing about creating, whether it is a painting or a song - you get to finish it the way you want to, regardless of what others in various levels of association or non-association may want or think.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is my opinion that the sheer volume of the layers wasn't needed and not some irrefutable fact... BUT I would argue with your take that they were wanted, because at least Tommy Stinson doesn't agree with that assessment and has made it know via interveiw. If everyone in the band had their way this would have been released years earlier in a more organic format.

I just don't get the maniacal need to defend Chinese Democracy like it is the mystical Wyld Stallyns album that brought world peace from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It is a really good album, I think it could have been better (again in my opinion)... but I wouldn't put it at the top of any list and certainly not ahead of any of GnR's previous full length albums.

Tommy was only a band member, he didn't mix, master or produce the album.

I don't get the maniacal need of some "fans" to constantly find fault and attempt to play pretend producer, and offer up unsolicited amateur advice concerning mixing, mastering and production.

The fact that Tommy didn't mix master or produce the album has nothing to do with his opinion of it. That's not his job.

Fact is, he worked and reworked on the album, we're basically agreeing with him in saying they they worked and reworked on the songs too much. All that came before mixing and mastering.

Deciding to record tracks and tracks of instruments on top of each other has nothing to do with producing, mastering and mixing.

I would even say that the producing mastering and mixing was top notch.

[EmilyGNR]

It is merely your opinion that layers "weren't needed"

Apparently they were wanted, or the Album version wouldnt contain them.

Beautiful thing about creating, whether it is a painting or a song - you get to finish it the way you want to, regardless of what others in various levels of association or non-association may want or think.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is my opinion that the sheer volume of the layers wasn't needed and not some irrefutable fact... BUT I would argue with your take that they were wanted, because at least Tommy Stinson doesn't agree with that assessment and has made it know via interveiw. If everyone in the band had their way this would have been released years earlier in a more organic format.

I just don't get the maniacal need to defend Chinese Democracy like it is the mystical Wyld Stallyns album that brought world peace from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It is a really good album, I think it could have been better (again in my opinion)... but I wouldn't put it at the top of any list and certainly not ahead of any of GnR's previous full length albums.

Tommy was only a band member, he didn't mix, master or produce the album.

I don't get the maniacal need of some "fans" to constantly find fault and attempt to play pretend producer, and offer up unsolicited amateur advice concerning mixing, mastering and production.

The fact that Tommy didn't mix master or produce the album has nothing to do with his opinion of it. That's not his job.

Fact is, he worked and reworked on the album, we're basically agreeing with him in saying they they worked and reworked on the songs too much. All that came before mixing and mastering.

Deciding to record tracks and tracks of instruments on top of each other has nothing to do with producing, mastering and mixing.

I would even say that the producing mastering and mixing was top notch.

I'm very aware that Stinson didn't mix, master or produce the album- that's why I said it- Duh- I'm also very aware the order that recording/working on, mixing and mastering occur in, and no- that wasn't his job, you're right- not his call either.

You're free to agree with his opinion, or anyone else's -- at the end of the day it's still just that, an opinion.

I personally think that the album sounds great, and obviously was intended to sound the way it does, thus -it's on the album release.

I splurged last year and bought a pair of Sennheiser headphones for my stereo- Chinese Democracy sounds glorious through those, and I am still finding bits and nuances that I haven't heard before- amazing Album.

[Wooody]

It is merely your opinion that layers "weren't needed"

Apparently they were wanted, or the Album version wouldnt contain them.

Beautiful thing about creating, whether it is a painting or a song - you get to finish it the way you want to, regardless of what others in various levels of association or non-association may want or think.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is my opinion that the sheer volume of the layers wasn't needed and not some irrefutable fact... BUT I would argue with your take that they were wanted, because at least Tommy Stinson doesn't agree with that assessment and has made it know via interveiw. If everyone in the band had their way this would have been released years earlier in a more organic format.

I just don't get the maniacal need to defend Chinese Democracy like it is the mystical Wyld Stallyns album that brought world peace from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It is a really good album, I think it could have been better (again in my opinion)... but I wouldn't put it at the top of any list and certainly not ahead of any of GnR's previous full length albums.

Tommy was only a band member, he didn't mix, master or produce the album.

I don't get the maniacal need of some "fans" to constantly find fault and attempt to play pretend producer, and offer up unsolicited amateur advice concerning mixing, mastering and production.

The fact that Tommy didn't mix master or produce the album has nothing to do with his opinion of it. That's not his job.

Fact is, he worked and reworked on the album, we're basically agreeing with him in saying they they worked and reworked on the songs too much. All that came before mixing and mastering.

Deciding to record tracks and tracks of instruments on top of each other has nothing to do with producing, mastering and mixing.

I would even say that the producing mastering and mixing was top notch.

I'm very aware that Stinson didn't mix, master or produce the album- that's why I said it- Duh-

 

[Thorned Rose]

It is merely your opinion that layers "weren't needed"

Apparently they were wanted, or the Album version wouldnt contain them.

Beautiful thing about creating, whether it is a painting or a song - you get to finish it the way you want to, regardless of what others in various levels of association or non-association may want or think.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is my opinion that the sheer volume of the layers wasn't needed and not some irrefutable fact... BUT I would argue with your take that they were wanted, because at least Tommy Stinson doesn't agree with that assessment and has made it know via interveiw. If everyone in the band had their way this would have been released years earlier in a more organic format.

I just don't get the maniacal need to defend Chinese Democracy like it is the mystical Wyld Stallyns album that brought world peace from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It is a really good album, I think it could have been better (again in my opinion)... but I wouldn't put it at the top of any list and certainly not ahead of any of GnR's previous full length albums.

Yeah I think it simply built up this mystic kinda feel. Like people wanted it to be this crazy good thing, this perfect thing. They wanted it to have take 10 years in the making/12 years since Slash quit and be this amazing better than Appetite For Destruction album. They wanted it (the fans) to be this insanely great masterpiece.

We are talking about an "album" here by the way guys, and as an album its just good. That's it. It is underrated I think, people simply attach the time it took to release with what is on it. If it comes out in 2002, and sounds about the same (less layers) then I think it is perceived much different.

I just hope to God that they bury CD, put out something fresh. There's nothing wrong with an old school rock sound, or a UYI piano era sounding album. Not everything has to be synthed and keyboards and stupid shit.

Guns N' Roses lacked bite and attitude. I don't they can ever replicate that now, as they are older and drama/tension creates special thing sometimes, but maybe they can come close? Who knows. There's a lot they could do, release and write about.

Chinese Democracy doesn't even come close to either UYI album. It just seems forced as an album and it is clearly patched up sounding. It does sound fresh and unique, but at the same time it sounds like it is in chunks... like 3 different groupings of songs. Bloated songs like TWAT and Shackler's (the sound of it makes it bloated) and Prostitute...

Hell the only songs on CD that stand next to anything Guns N' Roses before 1997 is "This I Love", "Chinese Democracy" and "Sorry" maybe. Everything else is just bland to good. Nothing special.

[EmilyGNR]

It is merely your opinion that layers "weren't needed"

Apparently they were wanted, or the Album version wouldnt contain them.

Beautiful thing about creating, whether it is a painting or a song - you get to finish it the way you want to, regardless of what others in various levels of association or non-association may want or think.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is my opinion that the sheer volume of the layers wasn't needed and not some irrefutable fact... BUT I would argue with your take that they were wanted, because at least Tommy Stinson doesn't agree with that assessment and has made it know via interveiw. If everyone in the band had their way this would have been released years earlier in a more organic format.

I just don't get the maniacal need to defend Chinese Democracy like it is the mystical Wyld Stallyns album that brought world peace from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It is a really good album, I think it could have been better (again in my opinion)... but I wouldn't put it at the top of any list and certainly not ahead of any of GnR's previous full length albums.

Tommy was only a band member, he didn't mix, master or produce the album.

I don't get the maniacal need of some "fans" to constantly find fault and attempt to play pretend producer, and offer up unsolicited amateur advice concerning mixing, mastering and production.

The fact that Tommy didn't mix master or produce the album has nothing to do with his opinion of it. That's not his job.

Fact is, he worked and reworked on the album, we're basically agreeing with him in saying they they worked and reworked on the songs too much. All that came before mixing and mastering.

Deciding to record tracks and tracks of instruments on top of each other has nothing to do with producing, mastering and mixing.

I would even say that the producing mastering and mixing was top notch.

I'm very aware that Stinson didn't mix, master or produce the album- that's why I said it- Duh-

 

What a great, original, thought provoking response!

Fun fact- Years ago there was a rule about responding merely using an emoticon- check the rules, its probably still there.

What part of "I'm aware that Stimson didn't mix, master, or produce the album" is causing you confusion? Its a pretty straightforward statement.

[D-GenerationX]

The people who pieced it together did amazing things... the issue is the layers weren't/aren't needed. The title track is the easiest to point to... there is a nearly 1 minute completely unnecessary intro before the first of five guitar players strikes the first musical chord of the song. Every person to strap on a guitar from 2000-2008 was recorded for the song... Even Tommy has called the whole thing overkill. Frankly I find it amazing it is as good as it is with the bloat of it all.

How many people sill say that their favorite version is still RIR III?  I know I I'm one of them.

That's a good, tight rocker.  Its also under 3 minutes, start to finish. 

Even the 2002 version, which adds more to the solo portion, I still prefer it to any version with the intro, live or studio.

[D-GenerationX]

I just don't get the maniacal need to defend Chinese Democracy like it is the mystical Wyld Stallyns album that brought world peace from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It is a really good album, I think it could have been better (again in my opinion)... but I wouldn't put it at the top of any list and certainly not ahead of any of GnR's previous full length albums.

Hahaha.  Love the analogy.

My personal feeling is that people are overeffusive with the love because they feel that is their duty, to pushback against what they see at the unfair hate it gets.

Even if its not your bag, you'd have to be crazy to concede there are not good songs on there.  But I'm with you that I don't need to go totally overboard about it.

Every list has to have a last spot.  Every team has to have a last pick.  Way of the world.

[Virolec]

I'm one of those who thinks that Chinese Democracy (the album, I mean) could have been stripped back a fair bit to its benefit.  Allowing the songs a bit more freedom to breathe, if you get my drift.*  Even so, I don't think there's anything especially wrong with the into to Chinese Democracy (the song).  I listen to a lot of metal, and self-indulgent intros that go on for too long are hardly uncommon in many kinds of metal, so the one on CD maybe seems less egregious to me than it maybe otherwise might... but even so, I like it.  It's like after so many years of waiting, you put the record on for the first time, and Axl's still going to tease the wait out for a wee bit longer.  Works well, methinks.





*Bj?rk's album Med?lla was released almost entirely a cappella for this reason.  When recording it, she found that the songs were getting lost under the layers and layers of instrumentation she kept adding to them, so she stripped them right back to let them stand on their own.  Not that I think CD would have been good a cappella, but sometimes less is more...

[Wooody]

It is merely your opinion that layers "weren't needed"

Apparently they were wanted, or the Album version wouldnt contain them.

Beautiful thing about creating, whether it is a painting or a song - you get to finish it the way you want to, regardless of what others in various levels of association or non-association may want or think.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is my opinion that the sheer volume of the layers wasn't needed and not some irrefutable fact... BUT I would argue with your take that they were wanted, because at least Tommy Stinson doesn't agree with that assessment and has made it know via interveiw. If everyone in the band had their way this would have been released years earlier in a more organic format.

I just don't get the maniacal need to defend Chinese Democracy like it is the mystical Wyld Stallyns album that brought world peace from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It is a really good album, I think it could have been better (again in my opinion)... but I wouldn't put it at the top of any list and certainly not ahead of any of GnR's previous full length albums.

Tommy was only a band member, he didn't mix, master or produce the album.

I don't get the maniacal need of some "fans" to constantly find fault and attempt to play pretend producer, and offer up unsolicited amateur advice concerning mixing, mastering and production.

The fact that Tommy didn't mix master or produce the album has nothing to do with his opinion of it. That's not his job.

Fact is, he worked and reworked on the album, we're basically agreeing with him in saying they they worked and reworked on the songs too much. All that came before mixing and mastering.

Deciding to record tracks and tracks of instruments on top of each other has nothing to do with producing, mastering and mixing.

I would even say that the producing mastering and mixing was top notch.

I'm very aware that Stinson didn't mix, master or produce the album- that's why I said it- Duh-

 

What a great, original, thought provoking response!

Fun fact- Years ago there was a rule about responding merely using an emoticon- check the rules, its probably still there.

What part of "I'm aware that Stimson didn't mix, master, or produce the album" is causing you confusion? Its a pretty straightforward statement.

Ok, Ill translate the emoticon for you:

"Im again caught up in a useless conversation with Emily. She will always want to have the last response even if she stops making sense. "

You are the one confused. We are all aware Stinson didnt mix master or produce the album. You're just twisting shit into oblivion to seem like a rebel once again.

Im not going there, I like sanity, thank you.
You can have the last word.

[EmilyGNR]

It is merely your opinion that layers "weren't needed"

Apparently they were wanted, or the Album version wouldnt contain them.

Beautiful thing about creating, whether it is a painting or a song - you get to finish it the way you want to, regardless of what others in various levels of association or non-association may want or think.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is my opinion that the sheer volume of the layers wasn't needed and not some irrefutable fact... BUT I would argue with your take that they were wanted, because at least Tommy Stinson doesn't agree with that assessment and has made it know via interveiw. If everyone in the band had their way this would have been released years earlier in a more organic format.

I just don't get the maniacal need to defend Chinese Democracy like it is the mystical Wyld Stallyns album that brought world peace from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It is a really good album, I think it could have been better (again in my opinion)... but I wouldn't put it at the top of any list and certainly not ahead of any of GnR's previous full length albums.

Tommy was only a band member, he didn't mix, master or produce the album.

I don't get the maniacal need of some "fans" to constantly find fault and attempt to play pretend producer, and offer up unsolicited amateur advice concerning mixing, mastering and production.

The fact that Tommy didn't mix master or produce the album has nothing to do with his opinion of it. That's not his job.

Fact is, he worked and reworked on the album, we're basically agreeing with him in saying they they worked and reworked on the songs too much. All that came before mixing and mastering.

Deciding to record tracks and tracks of instruments on top of each other has nothing to do with producing, mastering and mixing.

I would even say that the producing mastering and mixing was top notch.

I'm very aware that Stinson didn't mix, master or produce the album- that's why I said it- Duh-

 

What a great, original, thought provoking response!

Fun fact- Years ago there was a rule about responding merely using an emoticon- check the rules, its probably still there.

What part of "I'm aware that Stimson didn't mix, master, or produce the album" is causing you confusion? Its a pretty straightforward statement.

Ok, Ill translate the emoticon for you:

"Im again caught up in a useless conversation with Emily. She will always want to have the last response even if she stops making sense. "

You are the one confused. We are all aware Stinson didnt mix master or produce the album. You're just twisting shit into oblivion to seem like a rebel once again.

Im not going there, I like sanity, thank you.
You can have the last word.

Ahhh- so you translated your emoticon into a personal attack because you are unable to intelligently debate or discuss the topic- gotcha! 

Not "twisting" a thing, was merely stating since Stinson wasn't involved in the mixing/mastering/production his comments should be taken from that viewpoint...not that difficult of a concept to comprehend or grasp.

I'm a rebel???