Anyone else hope Steven ISN'T involved?

[sky dog]

Civil War is my favorite Gn'R track. His drumming is great on that. No matter how many splices it took.

The Farm Aid thing was lame. That's on the band for that. He played great there I think too.

He was great at Farm Aid and the little tumble he took is legendary...Keith Moon-esque....he played great that night. My favorite Gnr moment ever.

[TokyoRose]

I love watching Steven play with the old line up in their prime.  There was a sense of danger, and also fun. 

Would be great to see him involved in some way.  I find it very hard not to root for him. 

[OscarAxl22]

I just think people NOT wanting Steven involved in some way is cheating Guns N' Roses history and it is cheating Steven.

And I think the feelings on the matter come down to that very thing.

I look at this as sentimentality versus business.  The people that want Steven seem to put more stock in it being "the right thing to do".

The people against, seem to be putting more stock in wanting this to be as successful as it can be, and not looking to add any variable that might impede that.

And if that means "not being fair to Steven", well...too bad.  The tour's success is first and foremost here.

I agree with this 100%

It makes no business sense whatsoever, at any level to include Adler simply based on his track record and interview history.

If he is somehow given a special guest spot, this would be benevolent of the band- but I think it will come back to bite them in some way.

I didn't honestly care when I heard on MTV he was fired, and I don't entertain any silly sentimentality that overshadows logical thinking , so I honestly don't care one way or the other whether he appears with GNRs-

It actually makes a LOT of business sense to include Steven. You are underestimating the number of fans out there who say "if it's not the AFD 5 then it's still not Guns n Roses", like it or not that's a very strong opinion of fans who aren't just casuals.

I don't particularly agree with that notion but I understand the feelings of those who say it, and would stay away unless it's those 5 guys.

Me personally? If we get the three confirmed plus izzy at some stage then that's a huge bonus. I'd prefer Sorum to frank but frank seems like a loyal dude so I'm not going to put shut on him even though I don't care for him, but business sense if the AFD 5 got up there and we're successful then commercially it outstrips any other option, surely these days with contracts and clauses they could get something water tight but then again they are selling out shows anyway so as you say they might not take the risk!
My gut says he will be involved for about 10% of the tour! Maybe doing the opening half a dozen songs then letting frank take over.
That's just a guess though

[EmilyGNR]

I just think people NOT wanting Steven involved in some way is cheating Guns N' Roses history and it is cheating Steven.

And I think the feelings on the matter come down to that very thing.

I look at this as sentimentality versus business.  The people that want Steven seem to put more stock in it being "the right thing to do".

The people against, seem to be putting more stock in wanting this to be as successful as it can be, and not looking to add any variable that might impede that.

And if that means "not being fair to Steven", well...too bad.  The tour's success is first and foremost here.

I agree with this 100%

It makes no business sense whatsoever, at any level to include Adler simply based on his track record and interview history.

If he is somehow given a special guest spot, this would be benevolent of the band- but I think it will come back to bite them in some way.

I didn't honestly care when I heard on MTV he was fired, and I don't entertain any silly sentimentality that overshadows logical thinking , so I honestly don't care one way or the other whether he appears with GNRs-

It actually makes a LOT of business sense to include Steven. You are underestimating the number of fans out there who say "if it's not the AFD 5 then it's still not Guns n Roses", like it or not that's a very strong opinion of fans who aren't just casuals.

I don't particularly agree with that notion but I understand the feelings of those who say it, and would stay away unless it's those 5 guys.

Me personally? If we get the three confirmed plus izzy at some stage then that's a huge bonus. I'd prefer Sorum to frank but frank seems like a loyal dude so I'm not going to put shut on him even though I don't care for him, but business sense if the AFD 5 got up there and we're successful then commercially it outstrips any other option, surely these days with contracts and clauses they could get something water tight but then again they are selling out shows anyway so as you say they might not take the risk!
My gut says he will be involved for about 10% of the tour! Maybe doing the opening half a dozen songs then letting frank take over.
That's just a guess though

I partially agree with this, I think most people and promoters mostly care about Axl and Slash - to a lesser degree Duff.

It makes zero business sense if you weigh the risk against the benefits of having Adler perform IMO.

I'm not really opposed to him playing some guest spots though, his presence or absence won't be a factor for me at all.

[NaturalLight]

As someone who was around when Adler was kicked out of the band, no one at the time gave two shits about it when MTV broke the news. Seriously, he was a laughing stock. The man who got kicked out of GNR because of a drug probably.

I'm not saying he should or shouldn't be involved in any shows, but people here are seriously overstating his importance to the fan base.

To include him in the discussions now is to say that this is a true reunion and it's not. It's a reunion of the original core. That put out AFD and the Illusions.

No disrespect intended to you, but again, if I?m deferring to anyone?s memory, it?ll probably be to the people that truly were there, like Slash, Duff and Izzy.
Especially with the benefit of hindsight, it?s not terribly difficult to trace back to when GN?R began to decay.

Where you, I or anyone else ranks Steven?s importance to the band is irrelevant.
It could have been anyone, but it was Steven who left first.
He had a hand in GN?R?s most successful albums. Was his dismissal the sole reason the band couldn?t function on a creative level anymore?
Obviously not. Was his absence a factor? If we are to believe the words of his colleagues, then yes, it certainly was.

Did it stop people from going to see them live? No, why would it? No one is saying it was reason to protest, but it was absolutely a significant blow to the band, whether fans realized it at the time(or today) or not.

I completely get what you're saying. That's why my focus was more on the fan base relevance rather than that of the band's relevance. Absolutely, the only people who know what happened were the band - and time has probably messed up their memories as well. My comments were immediate reaction when news broke and then the subsequent fallout or whatever.

When MTV broke the news, people I knew (and I knew a lot of folks who were musicians) were like: Steve who? or Damn, that's some sorry shit that dude got thrown out of the band.

The comments weren't: Damn, what are they going to do now?

I won't take away his contributions (or lack thereof) to AFD because whether he deserves any credit or not it's certainly one of the greatest rock albums ever made and - you are correct - he was the drummer.

I just don't think he'll be missed (by a majority) if he's not on the tour. That's all.

And I surely don't believe that there is a strong core that believes if it's not the original five then it's not GNR. This is Steve Adler - Not John Bonham (And with a twist of irony, I don't here too many people saying that wasn't a Led Zeppelin reunion when Bonham didn't rise from the dead to play in 2007, but I seriously digress.)

Hell, no one missed him when Matt took over. In fact, I think Izzy was somewhat in a similar situation but that's a can of worms I'm not going to open.

I am, however, of the club that believes - and because I've known a lot of addicts and alcoholics (some successful, some not) - that he would eventually fuck up if given the full time gig. I really do believe that. Personally, I hope he doesn't.

[Continental_Drift]

I don't actively hope Steven is or isn't involved. Been a fan since '88- and Steven hasn't been a day-to-day part of that fandom since 1990. Like many- if not all- of the ex-Members- I continue to enjoy Steven's recorded performances- but have never once left a GNR show feeling letdown by the live performances of Sorum, Brain or Ferrer either. If Steven can be there- and the rest of the guys are into it and feel good about it- cool deal. If not- the GNR "machine" (all the more so now with Slash and Duff back on board)- will keep on rolling in impressive fashion IMHO...

Meanwhile- yes- some will vocally complain about the "AFD 5". I just happen to think most of them will still buy their tickets though- and at some level enjoy the spectacle of the seeing the regrouped Iconic Lineup.

[Bodhi]

I just think people NOT wanting Steven involved in some way is cheating Guns N' Roses history and it is cheating Steven.

And I think the feelings on the matter come down to that very thing.

I look at this as sentimentality versus business.  The people that want Steven seem to put more stock in it being "the right thing to do".

The people against, seem to be putting more stock in wanting this to be as successful as it can be, and not looking to add any variable that might impede that.

And if that means "not being fair to Steven", well...too bad.  The tour's success is first and foremost here.

I agree with this 100%

It makes no business sense whatsoever, at any level to include Adler simply based on his track record and interview history.

If he is somehow given a special guest spot, this would be benevolent of the band- but I think it will come back to bite them in some way.

I didn't honestly care when I heard on MTV he was fired, and I don't entertain any silly sentimentality that overshadows logical thinking , so I honestly don't care one way or the other whether he appears with GNRs-

It actually makes a LOT of business sense to include Steven. You are underestimating the number of fans out there who say "if it's not the AFD 5 then it's still not Guns n Roses", like it or not that's a very strong opinion of fans who aren't just casuals.

I don't particularly agree with that notion but I understand the feelings of those who say it, and would stay away unless it's those 5 guys.

I see what you are saying, and I also have seen that comment floating around online about its "not a real reunion without the original 5" thing.

Here's the thing though, people who say that either had no intention of going to the shows anyway or will most likely go to the show even though they say they aren't.  GNR have had instant sell outs for every show announced with pretty high ticket prices, so from the business side it appears to make no difference.

[gunslipk]

I'll be glad if this is not a reunion at all, but just a new line-up, even with some guests here and there. There'd be much more meaningful.

[Continental_Drift]

I just think people NOT wanting Steven involved in some way is cheating Guns N' Roses history and it is cheating Steven.

And I think the feelings on the matter come down to that very thing.

I look at this as sentimentality versus business.  The people that want Steven seem to put more stock in it being "the right thing to do".

The people against, seem to be putting more stock in wanting this to be as successful as it can be, and not looking to add any variable that might impede that.

And if that means "not being fair to Steven", well...too bad.  The tour's success is first and foremost here.

I agree with this 100%

It makes no business sense whatsoever, at any level to include Adler simply based on his track record and interview history.

If he is somehow given a special guest spot, this would be benevolent of the band- but I think it will come back to bite them in some way.

I didn't honestly care when I heard on MTV he was fired, and I don't entertain any silly sentimentality that overshadows logical thinking , so I honestly don't care one way or the other whether he appears with GNRs-

It actually makes a LOT of business sense to include Steven. You are underestimating the number of fans out there who say "if it's not the AFD 5 then it's still not Guns n Roses", like it or not that's a very strong opinion of fans who aren't just casuals.

I don't particularly agree with that notion but I understand the feelings of those who say it, and would stay away unless it's those 5 guys.

I see what you are saying, and I also have seen that comment floating around online about its "not a real reunion without the original 5" thing.

Here's the thing though, people who say that either had no intention of going to the shows anyway or will most likely go to the show even though they say they aren't.  GNR have had instant sell outs for every show announced with pretty high ticket prices, so from the business side it appears to make no difference.

Yeah. The: "it's not the Appetite 5!" line of attack was even around on the UYI Tour (w/Matt n' Gilby). That didn't stop the UYI Tour from being a massively successful, legendary tour though. Obviously lots of things have changed in the industry since 1992-93- but I still think there are a TON of folks now in their mid/late 30's through late 40's with disposable income who will definitely line-up to see Axl and Slash (and Duff to a lesser extent) perform together- whether it be for: (a) nostalgic reasons; (b) a chance to see something they never thought they'd see again (or ever see for the younger set); (c) just being part of a pop cultural "event"; or (d) any other miscellaneous reasons (e.g. "Hey- let's knock a few back Saturday night and see GNR!"). Just don't see how Steven Adler (or Izzy for that matter) makes or breaks that in any meaningful way. That said- their occasional involvement (if practicable) could enhance things further here or there I am sure...

[THeRoCK2]

just watch ritz 88 rocket queen, now this was a band

edit: 

edit2: you know you r right

edit3: y i am doing this?

edit4:pope

offtopic: st. vincent

[kaasupoltin]

I'll be glad if this is not a reunion at all, but just a new line-up, even with some guests here and there. There'd be much more meaningful.

Yep, at least it'd seem like a more meaningful thing. A full reunion would be a little.. reunion-ish. And that's rarely a good thing.

[JAEBALL]

I don't actively hope Steven is or isn't involved. Been a fan since '88- and Steven hasn't been a day-to-day part of that fandom since 1990. Like many- if not all- of the ex-Members- I continue to enjoy Steven's recorded performances- but have never once left a GNR show feeling letdown by the live performances of Sorum, Brain or Ferrer either. If Steven can be there- and the rest of the guys are into it and feel good about it- cool deal. If not- the GNR "machine" (all the more so now with Slash and Duff back on board)- will keep on rolling in impressive fashion IMHO...

Meanwhile- yes- some will vocally complain about the "AFD 5". I just happen to think most of them will still buy their tickets though- and at some level enjoy the spectacle of the seeing the regrouped Iconic Lineup.

I've stayed out of this thread...because we've had the exact same conversation more than a few times this year alone. The drummer seat... there are several different ways to go.. and i'm not really dead set against any of them, even If I have a small preference.

However .. you articulated it perfectly.

[LongGoneDay]

As someone who was around when Adler was kicked out of the band, no one at the time gave two shits about it when MTV broke the news. Seriously, he was a laughing stock. The man who got kicked out of GNR because of a drug probably.

I'm not saying he should or shouldn't be involved in any shows, but people here are seriously overstating his importance to the fan base.

To include him in the discussions now is to say that this is a true reunion and it's not. It's a reunion of the original core. That put out AFD and the Illusions.

No disrespect intended to you, but again, if I?m deferring to anyone?s memory, it?ll probably be to the people that truly were there, like Slash, Duff and Izzy.
Especially with the benefit of hindsight, it?s not terribly difficult to trace back to when GN?R began to decay.

Where you, I or anyone else ranks Steven?s importance to the band is irrelevant.
It could have been anyone, but it was Steven who left first.
He had a hand in GN?R?s most successful albums. Was his dismissal the sole reason the band couldn?t function on a creative level anymore?
Obviously not. Was his absence a factor? If we are to believe the words of his colleagues, then yes, it certainly was.

Did it stop people from going to see them live? No, why would it? No one is saying it was reason to protest, but it was absolutely a significant blow to the band, whether fans realized it at the time(or today) or not.

I completely get what you're saying. That's why my focus was more on the fan base relevance rather than that of the band's relevance. Absolutely, the only people who know what happened were the band - and time has probably messed up their memories as well. My comments were immediate reaction when news broke and then the subsequent fallout or whatever.

When MTV broke the news, people I knew (and I knew a lot of folks who were musicians) were like: Steve who? or Damn, that's some sorry shit that dude got thrown out of the band.

The comments weren't: Damn, what are they going to do now?

I won't take away his contributions (or lack thereof) to AFD because whether he deserves any credit or not it's certainly one of the greatest rock albums ever made and - you are correct - he was the drummer.

I just don't think he'll be missed (by a majority) if he's not on the tour. That's all.

And I surely don't believe that there is a strong core that believes if it's not the original five then it's not GNR. This is Steve Adler - Not John Bonham (And with a twist of irony, I don't here too many people saying that wasn't a Led Zeppelin reunion when Bonham didn't rise from the dead to play in 2007, but I seriously digress.)

Hell, no one missed him when Matt took over. In fact, I think Izzy was somewhat in a similar situation but that's a can of worms I'm not going to open.

I am, however, of the club that believes - and because I've known a lot of addicts and alcoholics (some successful, some not) - that he would eventually fuck up if given the full time gig. I really do believe that. Personally, I hope he doesn't.

Yea, I totally agree that Steven?s inclusion, or exclusion isn?t going to drastically effect ticket sales one way or the other.
Like you said, they did just fine on the Illusion tour without him, and Izzy.

Granted back when Adler was sacked, and Izzy walked away, we didn?t know to what extent it would effect the band.
I think a lot of people wanted to believe, myself included that someone like Axl, or Slash or whomever, was the brainchild of the operation, and bit players could be added as needed and they wouldn?t skip a beat. That of course has been proven not to be the case.

GN?R?s lineup at it?s creative peak was clearly Axl, Slash, Izzy, Duff, Steven.
Matt and Dizzy could also fall into this group due their involvement later on during the Illusion sessions.
It was a band effort. We know that for certain now.

I?m not the least bit surprised that the casual fan isn?t more interested in Steven, or Izzy?s participation. Axl & Slash alone is enough for most.
I?m just surprised at the lack of interest from us, more informed lunatics posting on a GN?R message board.

[Factory Girl]

We're here discussing and feeling sorry (some of us) for Steven and Izzy's likely absense in the full tour, but for the majority of the public, it won't make any difference. Axl was doing his thing with his new band and the shows were selling as far as I know, people wanted to see GNR even if it was only him.
Now it's all about Axl and Slash together again. That's what's gonna sell this tour.

I would love to see Steven because I'm sure his fun personality and his constant smile and happiness would bring a great feel to the shows. But being really honest, I would still be happy with Matt, I think he's a big part of the band too and makes even more sense than Steven, since he's played all the band's material.

If I had any say I would delete all the new GNR guys, anything as far from that as possible, but I know it's not realistic. Izzy would definitely be an important component to the band's chemistry on stage, since he brings that unity feel, his presence is more important to me than Steven's.

But I'm still going either way. They are throwing me a bone. I'm happy to have it.

[LongGoneDay]

We're here discussing and feeling sorry (some of us) for Steven and Izzy's likely absense in the full tour, but for the majority of the public, it won't make any difference. Axl was doing his thing with his new band and the shows were selling as far as I know, people wanted to see GNR even if it was only him.
Now it's all about Axl and Slash together again. That's what's gonna sell this tour.

I would love to see Steven because I'm sure his fun personality and his constant smile and happiness would bring a great feel to the shows. But being really honest, I would still be happy with Matt, I think he's a big part of the band too and makes even more sense than Steven, since he's played all the band's material.

If I had any say I would delete all the new GNR guys, anything as far from that as possible, but I know it's not realistic. Izzy would definitely be an important component to the band's chemistry on stage, since he brings that unity feel, his presence is more important to me than Steven's.

But I'm still going either way. They are throwing me a bone. I'm happy to have it.

This is essentially my take as well.
At the very least, I?ll be in Vegas and I?m sure it?ll be a fucking blast.
Could not possibly care less about any of the post Illusions members, and probably won?t pay a premium to see them in massive Gillete stadium, if that?s where they play, but would be there in a heartbeat as well if Izzy, Steven and/or Matt are involved.

[D-GenerationX]

But I'm still going either way. They are throwing me a bone. I'm happy to have it.

Perfectly stated.

The way I see it, the line-up I (hopefully) will be able to see this summer is the best line-up in 2 decades.  It's an improvement over the most recent 3 incarnations, in my opinion.

Is it perfect?  No.  But you can't let perfect be the enemy of good.  Enjoy this fantastic turn of events and enjoy it however long it lasts.

[LunsJail]

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/guns-roses-steven-adler-slash-and-duff-mckagan-dont-believe-i-am-21-months-sober/

He went on to say: "They don't think I'm cool and they don't think I can play drums that great and they don't think I'm sober. Duff, he has a right, in a way, but, like I said, he forgets where he came from too. But we did do some shows [together] in Japan [in 2013], and Duff invited [Steven's current band] ADLER to come down, and I was still drinking then. And the second I got to the airport, I made a beeline for the bar, and I just started doing shots of J?ger. And the whole trip I was sick and I was just a mess. And, you know, Duff's sober and he's very judgmental and forgetful of where he came from. And he was just so bummed and pissed at me. I mean, the playing part, the shows when we actually were performing, that went all right, but everything else? So I kind of ruined it and gave him the excuse to be able to say, 'Well, he's not cool and he's not that good.' But I stopped doing that. They stopped doing that. Just because they stopped doing it before I did doesn't make them any better. We're all people who have addiction problems. I was just able to get a grip on it later on in life than they did."
Read more at http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/guns-roses-steven-adler-slash-and-duff-mckagan-dont-believe-i-am-21-months-sober/#W721slpdq9qrW4Bg.99

If Steven doesn't end up being involved, he pretty much said why a few months ago. Duff let him play some shows with his cheese dick Adler band and he couldn't get out of the airport without getting sloshed. He's completely dysfunctional and his excuses get old, especially coming from a guy who is in his 50's now.

[D-GenerationX]

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/guns-roses-steven-adler-slash-and-duff-mckagan-dont-believe-i-am-21-months-sober/

He went on to say: "They don't think I'm cool and they don't think I can play drums that great and they don't think I'm sober. Duff, he has a right, in a way, but, like I said, he forgets where he came from too. But we did do some shows [together] in Japan [in 2013], and Duff invited [Steven's current band] ADLER to come down, and I was still drinking then. And the second I got to the airport, I made a beeline for the bar, and I just started doing shots of J?ger. And the whole trip I was sick and I was just a mess. And, you know, Duff's sober and he's very judgmental and forgetful of where he came from. And he was just so bummed and pissed at me. I mean, the playing part, the shows when we actually were performing, that went all right, but everything else? So I kind of ruined it and gave him the excuse to be able to say, 'Well, he's not cool and he's not that good.' But I stopped doing that. They stopped doing that. Just because they stopped doing it before I did doesn't make them any better. We're all people who have addiction problems. I was just able to get a grip on it later on in life than they did."
Read more at http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/guns-roses-steven-adler-slash-and-duff-mckagan-dont-believe-i-am-21-months-sober/#W721slpdq9qrW4Bg.99

If Steven doesn't end up being involved, he pretty much said why a few months ago. Duff let him play some shows with his cheese dick Adler band and he couldn't get out of the airport without getting sloshed. He's completely dysfunctional and his excuses get old, especially coming from a guy who is in his 50's now.

Exactly right.

And I think stories like that doom his chances more than some beef Axl might have.  I could almost see Axl relenting...IF, the others vouched for him.

But if even they have misgivings, I hardly expect Axl to then become his champion and try and convince them its a great idea.

[Continental_Drift]

I don't actively hope Steven is or isn't involved. Been a fan since '88- and Steven hasn't been a day-to-day part of that fandom since 1990. Like many- if not all- of the ex-Members- I continue to enjoy Steven's recorded performances- but have never once left a GNR show feeling letdown by the live performances of Sorum, Brain or Ferrer either. If Steven can be there- and the rest of the guys are into it and feel good about it- cool deal. If not- the GNR "machine" (all the more so now with Slash and Duff back on board)- will keep on rolling in impressive fashion IMHO...

Meanwhile- yes- some will vocally complain about the "AFD 5". I just happen to think most of them will still buy their tickets though- and at some level enjoy the spectacle of the seeing the regrouped Iconic Lineup.

I've stayed out of this thread...because we've had the exact same conversation more than a few times this year alone. The drummer seat... there are several different ways to go.. and i'm not really dead set against any of them, even If I have a small preference.

However .. you articulated it perfectly.

Thanks JAEBALL much appreciated. Yeah- I can see how certain drummers might further enhance the experience for certain paying customers- but I don't see the drummer slot making or breaking this in any meaningful way. All things being equal- I think they're playing it damn smart (at least as far as I understand it) by leaving the gig in Frank's very capable (IMHO) hands and possibly holding the door slightly ajar for an Adler sighting or two...

[inlikeflynn420]

I think the people who are demanding that Steven be involved are just expecting the band to go out and sound exactly like they did on AFD. Pure nostalgia only. Personally, I will be at the show on the 8th, and I want it to be the best concert possible MUSICALLY. As much as I love the AFD lineup, I think the current lineup, with Frank and Richard (and Dizzy and, yes, even Pittman--Axl has him still involved for a reason) can provide the best concert possible (of course I would love to see Izzy play a few songs). It would be cool for Steven if they let him play, but really, it would purely be a nostalgia move (and would keep him from sinking into a certain depression). But as far as musically, I wouldn't miss him out there. Sorry Steven