BBC Four to Air The Story of Guns N' Roses

[norway]

But it doesn't explain everything in the making of Chinese Democracy, because the album could be released with almost the same songs in 2002, 2004 and at the very least 2006. I just don't know if they kept adding stuff because they had extra time or they had extra time because they kept adding stuff.

The album was done pre-02. The company returned the cd and brougth in rtb, who wanted it re-recorded. So they did.



Tommy about it;


  [Axl] got zero fucking help from anyone outside the band to fucking do it. You know, it just got stupider and stupider as the record company kept throwing bad A&R guys [at us], or producers like Roy Thomas Baker who, you know, he made things sound better, but that wasn't' what we needed. We needed someone to help us fucking sow it up, and he came in fucking re-recorded everything five fucking times with every amp in the country. I just don't think that was something that was really important to making a record, that could have been taken care of in the mix.

My summation of the whole thing is that Interscope, when they took over Geffen, really led Axl to believe that Jimmy Iovine would be involved, and would help get this record done and make it happen. But basically what he did was let it completely fall apart. Then he had this great idea to bring in [producer] Roy Thomas Baker to make it sound better. All he did was re-record everything three or four different times, trying to make it sound like something it didn?t need to sound like, and spend $10 million in the process. My two cents on the whole thing is that I really think Jimmy Iovine fucked the whole thing up.


Most of the songs that are on the record now were done 10 fucking years ago. But all the talking heads in the mix were saying, ?Make ?em sound better! Make ?em sound better!? So we kept redoing this and that. And it ended up coming back down to the same fucking songs that they were 10 years ago, except that now they were a super-dense mishmash of a bunch of instrumentation.



tldr: RTB wrecked the record

imo they should have just released it in 01-02 and gone on with buckethead and fortus as guitarists.

[HBK]

But it doesn't explain everything in the making of Chinese Democracy, because the album could be released with almost the same songs in 2002, 2004 and at the very least 2006. I just don't know if they kept adding stuff because they had extra time or they had extra time because they kept adding stuff.

The album was done pre-02. The company returned the cd and brougth in rtb, who wanted it re-recorded. So they did.



Tommy about it;


  [Axl] got zero fucking help from anyone outside the band to fucking do it. You know, it just got stupider and stupider as the record company kept throwing bad A&R guys [at us], or producers like Roy Thomas Baker who, you know, he made things sound better, but that wasn't' what we needed. We needed someone to help us fucking sow it up, and he came in fucking re-recorded everything five fucking times with every amp in the country. I just don't think that was something that was really important to making a record, that could have been taken care of in the mix.

My summation of the whole thing is that Interscope, when they took over Geffen, really led Axl to believe that Jimmy Iovine would be involved, and would help get this record done and make it happen. But basically what he did was let it completely fall apart. Then he had this great idea to bring in [producer] Roy Thomas Baker to make it sound better. All he did was re-record everything three or four different times, trying to make it sound like something it didn?t need to sound like, and spend $10 million in the process. My two cents on the whole thing is that I really think Jimmy Iovine fucked the whole thing up.


Most of the songs that are on the record now were done 10 fucking years ago. But all the talking heads in the mix were saying, ?Make ?em sound better! Make ?em sound better!? So we kept redoing this and that. And it ended up coming back down to the same fucking songs that they were 10 years ago, except that now they were a super-dense mishmash of a bunch of instrumentation.



tldr: RTB wrecked the record

imo they should have just released it in 01-02 and gone on with buckethead and fortus as guitarists.

Great Post Norway

 

[Voodoochild]

But it doesn't explain everything in the making of Chinese Democracy, because the album could be released with almost the same songs in 2002, 2004 and at the very least 2006. I just don't know if they kept adding stuff because they had extra time or they had extra time because they kept adding stuff.

The album was done pre-02. The company returned the cd and brougth in rtb, who wanted it re-recorded. So they did.



Tommy about it;


  [Axl] got zero fucking help from anyone outside the band to fucking do it. You know, it just got stupider and stupider as the record company kept throwing bad A&R guys [at us], or producers like Roy Thomas Baker who, you know, he made things sound better, but that wasn't' what we needed. We needed someone to help us fucking sow it up, and he came in fucking re-recorded everything five fucking times with every amp in the country. I just don't think that was something that was really important to making a record, that could have been taken care of in the mix.

My summation of the whole thing is that Interscope, when they took over Geffen, really led Axl to believe that Jimmy Iovine would be involved, and would help get this record done and make it happen. But basically what he did was let it completely fall apart. Then he had this great idea to bring in [producer] Roy Thomas Baker to make it sound better. All he did was re-record everything three or four different times, trying to make it sound like something it didn?t need to sound like, and spend $10 million in the process. My two cents on the whole thing is that I really think Jimmy Iovine fucked the whole thing up.


Most of the songs that are on the record now were done 10 fucking years ago. But all the talking heads in the mix were saying, ?Make ?em sound better! Make ?em sound better!? So we kept redoing this and that. And it ended up coming back down to the same fucking songs that they were 10 years ago, except that now they were a super-dense mishmash of a bunch of instrumentation.



tldr: RTB wrecked the record

Yeah, I know, but before that, in 1999 they also had a near-complete album with a streamlined lineup and Brian May as a guest. Maybe it wasn't what Axl wanted, or maybe it got rejected also.

Then, RTB worked for some time, but that was in early 2000s. In 2006 they already had Andy Wallace, but that still wasn't enough and they added Caram Constanzo to produce it with Axl and they added Bumblefoot and Frank so it was done by early 2007, but it was released only in Nov. 2008.

My point is: they could have released it a lot of times with different line-ups, arrangements, production... And I don't know if it was just because they had extra time.

[Thorned Rose]

Yeah I remember when Thomas Baker came in and re did it all. I was thinking that was odd. I've always felt like it was done and in the bag fall 2002 or so. Wasn't it titled 2000 Intentions at one point for a 2000 release?

It is just mind blowing that in 15+ years of this band we've gotten 15 official songs (CD, Oh My God)

That sucks.

[ice cream sand pig]

very interesting observation woody. that had never occured to me before. its interesting, you have some people saying it took so long to make because of the talking heads in the record company, and then, was it frank? saying that things take a long time because axl is a perfectionist. last but not least, you have people on the forums arguing eternally over how it went down. there never seem to be any straight answers with this band.

[dmathski]

Yeah I remember when Thomas Baker came in and re did it all. I was thinking that was odd. I've always felt like it was done and in the bag fall 2002 or so. Wasn't it titled 2000 Intentions at one point for a 2000 release?

It is just mind blowing that in 15+ years of this band we've gotten 15 official songs (CD, Oh My God)

That sucks.

Yes I remember that as well. I think when Baker came in that was during the time of nothing happening 2003-2005. Very lean years.... 

[Spirit]

Yeah I remember when Thomas Baker came in and re did it all. I was thinking that was odd. I've always felt like it was done and in the bag fall 2002 or so. Wasn't it titled 2000 Intentions at one point for a 2000 release?

It is just mind blowing that in 15+ years of this band we've gotten 15 official songs (CD, Oh My God)

That sucks.

Yes I remember that as well. I think when Baker came in that was during the time of nothing happening 2003-2005. Very lean years.... 

Baker came in 2000 and stayed until 2002.

[The Wight Gunner]

Which might explain how when played live during those lean years, how the songs varied, all they were doing was playing the latest version, the way it was at that moment in time being laid down for the album.

[Voodoochild]

Which might explain how when played live during those lean years, how the songs varied, all they were doing was playing the latest version, the way it was at that moment in time being laid down for the album.

Always felt that that was the case.

I also get the feeling that the band experimented some new arrangements in rehearsals for the tour and then it would be later added to the recordings. Just like Ron's fretless and Frank straightfoward drums in Chinese.

The band played The Blues in 2006 with the ending kinda like they did in 2002 (Richard's solo was added between the European dates and the NA tour), but in 2007 Richard played the lead starting from the break ("what this means to me...") just like it would appear in the final record.

[norway]

Doug was fired in 01 or 02 afaik.

Axl:

  People in the record company had many opinions and they wanted to make the best possible record. Every time that we thought that we had the correct songs, then somebody thought that we could make it better. We started over, we continued adding songs, continued recording and recording.

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=38


here is some buckethead-moments, listen to the MM-solo at 18:52

[Thorned Rose]

I get that the clowns probably delayed them some for sure... but at some point it is just dumb.

For me, I really really thought 2004 was the year for CD. Then I was so so so certain that 2006 was the year. It was just crazy.

Any way you slice it up it ultimately was too long for an album to come out. Period.

It was 10 solid years from the album's actual conception to the release. That's fucking insane. It will forever be linked to that "decade" or "15" years as some people put it. That kills the vibe.

Cause peopel are like "man this took 10 years to make"? Casual fans think this.

For me... for what the album is.. its as good as either UYI album I think. or really close. Considering the length of time they spent on it.. it should of blown away AFD.

It just didn't.

Still a very good album.

[LongGoneDay]

I get that the clowns probably delayed them some for sure... but at some point it is just dumb.

For me, I really really thought 2004 was the year for CD. Then I was so so so certain that 2006 was the year. It was just crazy.

Any way you slice it up it ultimately was too long for an album to come out. Period.

It was 10 solid years from the album's actual conception to the release. That's fucking insane. It will forever be linked to that "decade" or "15" years as some people put it. That kills the vibe.

Cause peopel are like "man this took 10 years to make"? Casual fans think this.

For me... for what the album is.. its as good as either UYI album I think. or really close. Considering the length of time they spent on it.. it should of blown away AFD.

It just didn't.

Still a very good album.

In 2016, I think most people are very much over the amount of time it took ?GN?R" to produce Chinese Democracy.
They simply just don?t like the songs that ended up on it.
Wouldn?t matter if it took 17 years, or 15 minutes.

[D-GenerationX]

very interesting observation woody. that had never occured to me before. its interesting, you have some people saying it took so long to make because of the talking heads in the record company, and then, was it frank? saying that things take a long time because axl is a perfectionist. last but not least, you have people on the forums arguing eternally over how it went down. there never seem to be any straight answers with this band.

If you never correct the record, or can't even be bothered to speak in the first place, you have little to no credibility complaining down the line that people speculated in directions you don't feel are fair or accurate.

The speculation is the result of your silence.  Ending the latter cuts down on the former.

[Slashrose]

Very cool

but, the video was removed

[Thorned Rose]

I get that the clowns probably delayed them some for sure... but at some point it is just dumb.

For me, I really really thought 2004 was the year for CD. Then I was so so so certain that 2006 was the year. It was just crazy.

Any way you slice it up it ultimately was too long for an album to come out. Period.

It was 10 solid years from the album's actual conception to the release. That's fucking insane. It will forever be linked to that "decade" or "15" years as some people put it. That kills the vibe.

Cause peopel are like "man this took 10 years to make"? Casual fans think this.

For me... for what the album is.. its as good as either UYI album I think. or really close. Considering the length of time they spent on it.. it should of blown away AFD.

It just didn't.

Still a very good album.

In 2016, I think most people are very much over the amount of time it took ?GN?R" to produce Chinese Democracy.
They simply just don?t like the songs that ended up on it.
Wouldn?t matter if it took 17 years, or 15 minutes.

Never said anything about 2016....

I was pointing out that even though it appears management delayed the process it isn't an excuse. How complicated it could be? The longer he went on without releasing the more pressure and high expectations got.

If this album dropped in 2002 and is close to what it ended up being people are softer on it. A lot of people attach the time it took to make it with how good it is. If it comes out in 2002, like it should have we're talking about a fantastic album. As a fan you don't like to wait a really long time with something to happen.

1 album in 16+ years as a band isn't good enough and management isn't to blame for all of that.

[LongGoneDay]

It was a ludicrous amount of time, regardless of who?s at fault, no question.

I guess my point was basically refuting your notion that if it had been released in 2002, that we?d be talking about a fantastic album.
I don?t believe that to be the case at all.

Sure, people wouldn?t have been harping on the time factor as much, or they may be softer on it as you suggest.
But in the end, I don?t believe it has much bearing on people?s opinion of the music.

I liked Street of Dreams in 2008, and I like it in 2016.
When Shackler?s Revenge leaked back in ?07 or ?08, I was hoping it was fake, or a joke, and wouldn?t be included on Chinese.
I would cringe if I heard it today, or if I heard in back in 2002 just the same.

[Thorned Rose]

I just can't agree with you man.

In general people tie what Chinese Democracy is to the length it took to release it.

That is just how it is. Things didn't come together until that new years show early 2001. They had been recording stuff since 1998ish or so though.

If you think the album's perception isn't linked to its long process and delays then you are wrong.

[Jay Tea]

I enjoyed this doc. One complaint I have is that Dizzy seems to be consciously omitted. VH1 Behind The Music did the same thing. You never hear or see his name and barely see his face.

I just don't get that. Why not even mention an official band member of 20 years who plays on the majority of the studio albums?

I'm assuming he is the 6th motorcycle skeleton, but c'mon.

[zombux]

I just can't agree with you man.

In general people tie what Chinese Democracy is to the length it took to release it.

That is just how it is. Things didn't come together until that new years show early 2001. They had been recording stuff since 1998ish or so though.

If you think the album's perception isn't linked to its long process and delays then you are wrong.

no, not really. the primary issue they have is, that it has no "original members" besides Axl. indeed it's not the greatest album of all times, but still, all the guys playing on it deserve a HUGE credit. but most people just go like "meh, this is not GNR, Axel is fat, and also both Slash and the guy with tophat aren't there, so fuck that crap".

[Thorned Rose]

The biggest problem is that Axl did everything in his power to ensure he'd have the name "Guns N' Roses"... for someone that did all he did to get it... he's done very little with it

He tried so hard to be relevant that in the end... the album wasn't that relevant. Look man I like the album, I'm just saying its a shame it took so long

And we may never hear what else was done... this reunion is going to back catalog other things.

They aren't going to release CDII I don't think now. Not for awhile