Chinese Democracy's Legacy

[D-GenerationX]

wrong logic. people now seem to be expecting 1989-1991 again. obviously not happening, because it was 25 years ago. GNR evolved, band members are not 25-30 years old anymore, but around 50. everything has changed. having some old chaps on the podium, pretending it's 1988 again, obviously can't work at all. the expectations seem a bit impossible, I think.

I might see this point if it was still the band that everyone knew and accepted as Guns N' Roses.

This, was not.  It was GNR in name only to most.  That's a tough sell.

What Axl attempted to do was basically unprecedented.  As he told Loder after the VMAs.  How do you rebuild something that was so huge back up from scratch with all new pieces?  Very, very hard.

Oddly, I think Axl was far more ready for the reaction than a lot of his fans were.  He seemed pretty open about how it was going to be different and some people weren't going to dig it.  He really never went down the road some here do about how its a straight line evolution and some fan you are, you motherfucker, you.  He never really did that.  I think he was far more realistic.

[Voodoochild]

Yeah, Axl knew better about expectations. I still feel I get what he was trying to do in regards of the sound, but maybe he overlooked the style.

I just tend to roll my eyes at the talk that it was just too complex, a misunderstood masterpiece, or how it will appreciate over time.

Seems like wishful thinking to me.  And a coping mechanism to try and explain away why people didn't dig it.

People heard it and said "...nah, not for me".  It happens.

It does. But there is a lot surrounding the album besides the music itself. Prejudice is the biggest one - I know a lot of people who didn't like it before even hearing it. That's why I think it has a chance to grow over time. Not to be a huge hit, tho.

[Continental_Drift]

I think what will happen "over time" is that there will be a larger "re-evaluation" of Axl Rose, his career and his career choices- particularly if the regrouping is a success. In that context- I do think Chinese will get a second audience. Unfortunately, the kind of thing to trigger this sort of retrospective analysis IMHO will be something like Axl's passing (e.g. have spent a lot of time listening to Bowie's Berlin Trilogy albums last several days)- which is hopefully many, many moons from now obviously. In the meantime- as much as the "hype" and delays hurt Chinese- in a funny way- they kind of help prop it up now IMHO- as the "journey" to Chinese Democracy has attained a sort of "reference point" status in rock music history in terms of long-developing albums (along-side Smile). Of all the many albums that under-perform commercially- Chinese will be one of the few that is still remembered/referenced IMHO- if not for reasons directly pertaining to the music.

All that said- full disclosure- Chinese Democracy is my favorite album- by any artist- but that is a separate discussion.

[D-GenerationX]

It does. But there is a lot surrounding the album besides the music itself. Prejudice is the biggest one - I know a lot of people who didn't like it before even hearing it.

No question about it. 

But what about this?  That prejudice is a real thing.  But with Slash and Duff back in the fold now, will Axl get more slack?

Here is what I mean.  Will people be slower to really rip his vocals?  Will people suddenly be more receptive to CD songs if those guys are the ones playing them?

I don't think you can rule that out.

[norway]

Will people be slower to really rip his vocals?  Will people suddenly be more receptive to CD songs if those guys are the ones playing them?

And? It be a greater popband yeah, but what about the music?

[Voodoochild]

But what about this?  That prejudice is a real thing.  But with Slash and Duff back in the fold now, will Axl get more slack?

Actually I don't think so. If anything, people will get more curious about it.

Here is what I mean.  Will people be slower to really rip his vocals?  Will people suddenly be more receptive to CD songs if those guys are the ones playing them?

I don't think you can rule that out.

Not ruling it out, I do think the prejudice may get even stronger. But maybe in its 10th anniversary it can be revisited? I dunno.


BTW I don't see any problem with his vocals on CD and didn't see much complain about it.

[D-GenerationX]

BTW I don't see any problem with his vocals on CD and didn't see much complain about it.

Oh no, not on the album.  I meant his live vocals from 2011-2014.

If he comes back with the same caliber of vocals, will people to slower to call him out on it, due to the appearance of Slash and Duff?  Are the same spotty vocals while standing next to DJ Ashba viewed the same way as when he's standing next to Slash?

[Wooody]

BTW I don't see any problem with his vocals on CD and didn't see much complain about it.

Oh no, not on the album.  I meant his live vocals from 2011-2014.

If he comes back with the same caliber of vocals, will people to slower to call him out on it, due to the appearance of Slash and Duff?  Are the same spotty vocals while standing next to DJ Ashba viewed the same way as when he's standing next to Slash?

This is something I fear.

I think a lot of people haven't really checked out GNR in the past 20 years , you know the kind, the kind that saw SLASH wasn't there, and upon 5 seconds of listening, dismissed NUGNR.
Those people will check them out now just  because of Slash is back. I fear with their negative opinion, they will look to slaughter GNR and especially Axl if he underperforms.

[D-GenerationX]

If he comes back with the same caliber of vocals, will people to slower to call him out on it, due to the appearance of Slash and Duff?  Are the same spotty vocals while standing next to DJ Ashba viewed the same way as when he's standing next to Slash?

This is something I fear.

I think a lot of people haven't really checked out GNR in the past 20 years , you know the kind, the kind that saw SLASH wasn't there, and upon 5 seconds of listening, dismissed NUGNR.
Those people will check them out now just  because of Slash is back. I fear with their negative opinion, they will look to slaughter GNR and especially Axl if he underperforms.

It's a 100% legitimate concern.

We're not supposed to say it out loud around here, I realize.  But no one is saying it to be a dick.  We all want this to be wildly successful. 

But you can't be blind to reality.  Axl must deliver because, yes, there are going to be a shitload of people seeing him for the first time in some time.

Footage from Coachella will be out there, and it will be good sound.  There will be no secrets on this thing, almost immediately.

I happen to think he will be ready to roll.  But am I worried?  Yeah, I'm worried.  I'm not going to sit here and bullshit.

[ice cream sand pig]

I think over time it will grow in this almost underground sort of way. Well if Gn'R do an actual reunion etc... the sales will pop for this album too.

I have never understood this argument.

If you didn't dig it, and many people didn't dig it, its because it didn't sound like Guns N' Roses to you.

Why will that change over time?

If 'It's So Easy' and 'Scraped' sounded like 2 different bands to you in 2008, why would it be any different in 2018?

wasnt there an axl quote where he mentioned something about the arrangement from TIL and said something about either how it will take people time to appreciate cd or take time for people to realize what he did? something along those lines?

[Thorned Rose]

If he comes back with the same caliber of vocals, will people to slower to call him out on it, due to the appearance of Slash and Duff?  Are the same spotty vocals while standing next to DJ Ashba viewed the same way as when he's standing next to Slash?

This is something I fear.

I think a lot of people haven't really checked out GNR in the past 20 years , you know the kind, the kind that saw SLASH wasn't there, and upon 5 seconds of listening, dismissed NUGNR.
Those people will check them out now just  because of Slash is back. I fear with their negative opinion, they will look to slaughter GNR and especially Axl if he underperforms.

It's a 100% legitimate concern.

We're not supposed to say it out loud around here, I realize.  But no one is saying it to be a dick.  We all want this to be wildly successful. 

But you can't be blind to reality.  Axl must deliver because, yes, there are going to be a shitload of people seeing him for the first time in some time.

Footage from Coachella will be out there, and it will be good sound.  There will be no secrets on this thing, almost immediately.

I happen to think he will be ready to roll.  But am I worried?  Yeah, I'm worried.  I'm not going to sit here and bullshit.

I agree with this completely DX. I mean seeing them live would be just incredible. Axl's vocals have taken a dip for sure, but it is a lot harder to sing like him than play a instrument at his age.

It isn't his fault. He's just getting old. What I would like more than anything is for them to pop some albums out. I think in the studio Axl would be able to give his very best vocals where live he might struggle with certain rocker songs.

He vocals on "Nightrain" for example just aren't as good from 2011-14 as they have been. He's just getting older. It happens. In the studio he's have more area to perfect each song the way he wants it. I would rather have like 20 shows a year, and a new album ever 2 years than boat loads of shows and no new album ever.

I'm really really hoping to get some new stuff from the guys... and a box set of older stuff that has been tucked away sitting around.

[EmilyGNR]

If he comes back with the same caliber of vocals, will people to slower to call him out on it, due to the appearance of Slash and Duff?  Are the same spotty vocals while standing next to DJ Ashba viewed the same way as when he's standing next to Slash?

This is something I fear.

I think a lot of people haven't really checked out GNR in the past 20 years , you know the kind, the kind that saw SLASH wasn't there, and upon 5 seconds of listening, dismissed NUGNR.
Those people will check them out now just  because of Slash is back. I fear with their negative opinion, they will look to slaughter GNR and especially Axl if he underperforms.

It's a 100% legitimate concern.

We're not supposed to say it out loud around here, I realize.  But no one is saying it to be a dick.  We all want this to be wildly successful. 

But you can't be blind to reality.  Axl must deliver because, yes, there are going to be a shitload of people seeing him for the first time in some time.

Footage from Coachella will be out there, and it will be good sound.  There will be no secrets on this thing, almost immediately.

I happen to think he will be ready to roll.  But am I worried?  Yeah, I'm worried.  I'm not going to sit here and bullshit.

I agree with this completely DX. I mean seeing them live would be just incredible. Axl's vocals have taken a dip for sure, but it is a lot harder to sing like him than play a instrument at his age.

It isn't his fault. He's just getting old. What I would like more than anything is for them to pop some albums out. I think in the studio Axl would be able to give his very best vocals where live he might struggle with certain rocker songs.

He vocals on "Nightrain" for example just aren't as good from 2011-14 as they have been. He's just getting older. It happens. In the studio he's have more area to perfect each song the way he wants it. I would rather have like 20 shows a year, and a new album ever 2 years than boat loads of shows and no new album ever.

I'm really really hoping to get some new stuff from the guys... and a box set of older stuff that has been tucked away sitting around.

I attended numerous shows in 2014 and he sounded great.

54 isn't ancient or geriatric and only looks "old' to the prepubescent crowd, age is relative from where you're looking.

[D-GenerationX]

So long as Axl does some decent prep work, I think he'll be fine.

We heard he wasn't at the first batch of rehearsals, which was discouraging.  Still time though.  And I still think he knows he has to be ready.

[Thorned Rose]

Yeah I mean he sounds good still, just not great.

There's a clear drop in his vocal range and quality though since 2006ish or just after. It's not a huge drop and he's still great live for sure. The older he gets the less likely his vocals might stay great.

Axl is one of the greatest vocalists ever. So his vocals "dropping" is really a small thing.

[D-GenerationX]

Yeah I mean he sounds good still, just not great.

There's a clear drop in his vocal range and quality though since 2006ish or just after. It's not a huge drop and he's still great live for sure. The older he gets the less likely his vocals might stay great.

Axl is one of the greatest vocalists ever. So his vocals "dropping" is really a small thing.

Also has one very difficult vocal style.

Axl is my favorite frontman ever, but my second is Eddie Vedder.  Eddie's vocal style, he can still easily do that shit when he's 70.

Axl's requires a lot more effort.

[Spirit]

We heard he wasn't at the first batch of rehearsals, which was discouraging.

Was there ever a credible source to that claim?

I remember reading something about that on some forum, coming from Steven Tyler, but no source was presented. Makes me think it was made up.

However, it wouldn't be unusual for Axl to skip rehearsals. But, it's maybe not even any point in him being there at the beginning while the band figures out the music together anyways. Him singing for a full three months ahead might also present a risk of wear on the voice even before the tour starts. Better for the singer to join in the last weeks when the music starts to sound tight.

[jamillos22]

Yeah I mean he sounds good still, just not great.

There's a clear drop in his vocal range and quality though since 2006ish or just after. It's not a huge drop and he's still great live for sure. The older he gets the less likely his vocals might stay great.

Axl is one of the greatest vocalists ever. So his vocals "dropping" is really a small thing.

IMO the "drop" was clearly in 2011. Hell, in 2010 he sounded even better than 2006, at least to me.

[Thorned Rose]

Yeah I mean he sounds good still, just not great.

There's a clear drop in his vocal range and quality though since 2006ish or just after. It's not a huge drop and he's still great live for sure. The older he gets the less likely his vocals might stay great.

Axl is one of the greatest vocalists ever. So his vocals "dropping" is really a small thing.

Also has one very difficult vocal style.

Axl is my favorite frontman ever, but my second is Eddie Vedder.  Eddie's vocal style, he can still easily do that shit when he's 70.

Axl's requires a lot more effort.

I agree all the way. The Jungle/Nightrain any screetch songs are just going to get harder.

Eddie and someone like Myles Kennedy can probably sing that way forever.

[D-GenerationX]

However, it wouldn't be unusual for Axl to skip rehearsals. But, it's maybe not even any point in him being there at the beginning while the band figures out the music together anyways. Him singing for a full three months ahead might also present a risk of wear on the voice even before the tour starts. Better for the singer to join in the last weeks when the music starts to sound tight.

Agree with all of that.

However, I think it would be better from a camaraderie standpoint if he at least stuck his head in.  Even if he's not singing.

[D-GenerationX]

Yeah I mean he sounds good still, just not great.

There's a clear drop in his vocal range and quality though since 2006ish or just after. It's not a huge drop and he's still great live for sure. The older he gets the less likely his vocals might stay great.

Axl is one of the greatest vocalists ever. So his vocals "dropping" is really a small thing.

IMO the "drop" was clearly in 2011. Hell, in 2010 he sounded even better than 2006, at least to me.

Agreed.  That's where I see a change.

Although, oddly, I think he sounded a little weaker in 2011...then downright horrendous in 2012...but then kickass again by 2014.

Very strange.