Chinese Democracy's Legacy

[D-GenerationX]

A placeholder.

A way to keep the homefires burning, and an opportunity to continue to listen to and appreciate my favorite frontman of alltime.

[GeorgeSteele]

For me, it's a very conflicted, ambivalent record, and I love that about it.  It so perfectly captures the difficult to reconcile feelings of past failed relationships / tortured experiences.  Regret, resignation/defeat, justification, anger, retribution, needing to get on with life, resoluteness... so much stuff... and never sure which feeling among all those is prevailing.  And what's also great is how the musical layered complexity matches the complexity and paradoxes of the album's themes.  It's a very personal, intense record for me, not something I can listen to casually during my mass transit commute. 

[Axlspants]

I don't know about the legacy of NuGnR but for me personally I got an amazing album out of it and got to see them play live 4 times. Since the reunion was announced I've found myself listening to the old stuff much more and its sounding pretty fresh because for the last 7 years I've been listening to CD whenever I get the chance to listen to music. Nu GnR, Classic GnR, Reformed GnR I'm easy any way as long as Axl is happy and performing, new music will be awesome whenever he is ready.

[C0ma]

It's an interesting but difficult to answer question because there are several avenues to attack it from.

1. What does it mean to me
2. What does it mean to Axl/the band
3. What does it mean to the bands legacy in the industry

For me it means a few different things... First it came out within days of my thirtieth birthday, so what was funny is nearly everyone I knew got it for me on either CD or Vinyl. Secondly my first child was born a few months earlier so it is one of those things where the lyrical content doesn't line up exactly, but as soon as I hear those songs (in album form of course) I am transported back to that time. For that the album will always hold a special place in my heart. Thirdly though there is a little disappointment, some of it falls on my because I gave in to the temptation of the leaks which sort of killed the surprise of the album and in some cases I thought the rawer older demo's sound better than the final product... the wait built up so much anticipation that for me wasn't met... but being transported beck to a time when my daughter was months old by slapping on some headphones or driving to work is really cool so that for me outweighs any negatives I can find my nit picking.

For the band I can't begin to imagine or put into words what each individual song or riff that they added means, but it is obvious from the journey it took to reach us that it is very powerful and important to everyone who participated in it's creation.

As far as CD's impact on the bands overall legacy within the industry/music scene... That is really up for debate/individual interpretation. Some people will point to strong reviews and strong (for the time period) album sales. Others will point to typically sarcastic articles written about the band that usually poke fun at the revolving lineup and the lack of 'classic' (don't want to bring down the wrath of the 'original' truthers by using the wrong word there) members... The 'look' of the band and the spottiness of the performances where they were available for large public consumption (2002 VMA, Bridge School, etc...) tend to mark this period. While I understand that times change and sounds change a lot of people were expecting something that sounded like a GnR, VR, or even Slash record... what they got was different and wasn't given a chance. When people outside of these boards get asked to rank albums, I would think it would fall dead last... same could be said for songs, the general public would list Jungle, SCOM, Paradise City, Patience, Don't Cry, November Rain, YCBM, and other songs that to this day get rock radio play over anything from CD because it unfortunately never made a wide splash. I know people who bought it that gave it one listen and never picked it up again... I also know people like me that own multiple copies from being gifted it (so you have to wonder how much that means to sales...)

I do think people need to fall back to question one, what does it mean to you?, and not put to much stock in what it means for the bands legacy with anyone else... the fact that it lacks a member as largely know, recognized, and respected like Slash will always be a black mark... but that shouldn't ruin your enjoyment of it.

[Wooody]

On the negative side. Overproduction, and label intrusion, which Ive found out recently are both related.

What do you mean? Did Chinese sound get influenced by label in the final mix?

According to Tommy it was. Let me see whether I can find the quote.

[Wooody]

On the negative side. Overproduction, and label intrusion, which Ive found out recently are both related.

What do you mean? Did Chinese sound get influenced by label in the final mix?

According to Tommy it was. Let me see whether I can find the quote.

"It was a bummer. Most of the songs that are on the record now were done 10 f*cking years ago. But all the talking heads in the mix were saying, Make 'em sound better! Make 'em sound better!' So we kept redoing this and that. And it ended up coming back down to the same f*cking songs that they were 10 years ago, except that now they were a super-dense mishmash of a bunch of instrumentation."

[Thorned Rose]

Chill out?  Was I upset?

Looked like you were questioning what I said... so yeah chill out.

[Thorned Rose]

So what are your thoughts on this era? What are your favorite moments? How does CD hold up 7 years removed from its release?

It's the era of the band where I grew up. Kind of. 
Lots and lots of great memories that relate to the album and the tour.

The album is still amazing and every time you listen to it, it still sounds fresh. 



/jarmo

Well put. I got into Guns N' Roses in the summer of 2000. Which was a fantastic time to get into them with all of the hype and the comeback in RiR etc...

It does sound very fresh still.

[Thorned Rose]

I guess I'll put down what I think of it in general...

The album itself is very good. Was it worth the 10 year wait? Or 8 year wait however you want to look at it? NO.

Then again, NO ALBUM is. That is the biggest thing with this album, people attach it to delays and being late and the most expensive record ever etc... For what it is... it is very good, but not great I think. It has some filler on there, and the bad part about it for me is that we'd heard like 5 songs off the album for years live on and off. So when it finally came out, you were kinda getting a EP in some ways. Studio versions were obviously better and had a finished feel to them sure... but you weren't getting an entire 14 new songs.

I was and still am very happy that it came out. I had 3 copies of it at 1 point and I still have the vinyl of it too. The writing credits are incredibly interesting to read lmao.

I do think that as time passes the album will get more praise. Like 10 years from now I think it won't make any all time great album lists or anything, but I think it will be in that "underrated" album discussion.

To compare the quality of music with OTHER Gn'R releases... It is obviously better than Lies, which wasn't an actual LP though. It's better than the cover album TSI sure. that is obvious too, but is it better than AFD and either UYI album?

No, I don't think so. It CLEARLY isn't better than Appetite, and Use Your Illusion II. Maybe it is even with UYI I? I don't know. It is either close to even with it, or even with it. It is still hard for me to say.

[EmilyGNR]

I guess I'll put down what I think of it in general...

The album itself is very good. Was it worth the 10 year wait? Or 8 year wait however you want to look at it? NO.

Then again, NO ALBUM is. That is the biggest thing with this album, people attach it to delays and being late and the most expensive record ever etc... For what it is... it is very good, but not great I think. It has some filler on there, and the bad part about it for me is that we'd heard like 5 songs off the album for years live on and off. So when it finally came out, you were kinda getting a EP in some ways. Studio versions were obviously better and had a finished feel to them sure... but you weren't getting an entire 14 new songs.

I was and still am very happy that it came out. I had 3 copies of it at 1 point and I still have the vinyl of it too. The writing credits are incredibly interesting to read lmao.

I do think that as time passes the album will get more praise. Like 10 years from now I think it won't make any all time great album lists or anything, but I think it will be in that "underrated" album discussion.

To compare the quality of music with OTHER Gn'R releases... It is obviously better than Lies, which wasn't an actual LP though. It's better than the cover album TSI sure. that is obvious too, but is it better than AFD and either UYI album?

No, I don't think so. It CLEARLY isn't better than Appetite, and Use Your Illusion II. Maybe it is even with UYI I? I don't know. It is either close to even with it, or even with it. It is still hard for me to say.

Taste is subjective, have talked with some people that prefer CD to appetite- people like what they like.

[Wooody]

yeah Tastes are different.

For Me as a kid I had only heard Wttj, Sweetchild and Paradise city on the TV, I bought UYI on cassette and loved it 100%. So I thought hey Im going to go and listen to all of appetite. And at first it was like an acquired taste, I didnt like all of the songs immediatly they way I did the 3 singles, of course after repeated listening I ended up loving all songs. But I still prefer UYI.

[C0ma]

Taste is subjective, have talked with some people that prefer CD to appetite- people like what they like.

Agreed, that's why I always wonder about these types of topics. I feel the person asking the question is just looking for people to validate their feelings either positive or negative on the topic. Which is why in my last post I said be happy that it means what it means to you (the listener)... If you ask 100 people and 99 agree with you, the loudest one always seems to be the one that disagrees and you feel the need to get dragged into an argument to change their mind... Music/art is highly subjective it's in the eye or the ear of the beholder, but we always look for a metric to measure it, and when that doesn't validate our opinion we want to devalue that metric...

I'll never forget when I was in college and Alanis Morissette released her first album which also was around the same period that the Hootie and the Blowfish debut hit... shortly they were overtaking AFD for the best selling debut album of all time. I was wondering how stupid people could be, there was no possible way people thought that was better... now 20+ years later I am laughing that I let it bother me for a second, but that is what music and fandom will do to you sometimes.

[Thorned Rose]

Right of course that is my opinion... but universally people like AFD to CD

If you think CD is a better album than Appetite then that's fine. That is your taste... but you can't really compare an album that took under 1 month to record and is their best universally acclaimed album over CD right?

I mean am I crazy here? To say CD is better than AFD is simply your opinion too, and that is fine, but I think no matter how you look at it you're fucking nuts if you think CD is a better album than AFD.

It simply isn't. Yeah that is my opinion, based on boat loads of facts. Oh yes... facts. Sales, reviews... impact, impression etc...

R E C O R D I N G time...

10 years to 1 month or so?

Yeah.. it is my opinion right? Get real. It is ALMOST everyone's opinion...

yep you just lost.

[C0ma]

I mean am I crazy here? To say CD is better than AFD is simply your opinion too, and that is fine, but I think no matter how you look at it you're fucking nuts if you think CD is a better album than AFD.

It simply isn't. Yeah that is my opinion, based on boat loads of facts. Oh yes... facts. Sales, reviews... impact, impression etc...

I can't believe I am even involving myself in this and taking a counterpoint... I agree with your assessment of AFD over CD... but that is my opinion. I grew up in the 80's, it was the first album that I ever fell in love with front to back For me there is no comparison, it is AFD and everything else.

BUT... you will notice I said 'for me' 'I' 'my opinion'... that is what this is all about. Take out album sales because they don't mean the same thing, streaming and illegal downloads cut into that business a long time ago. Someone may have seen this band for the first time in the mid 2000's, so they know the new lineup, they love their sound and tone. When the album came out that was 'their' version of the band. They listen to CD back to front without finding a weak point. How do you tell that person they are wrong? Is it because it isn't your favorite, my favorite, or Slash's favorite? How does that make them wrong?

[WAR41]

Not going to get involved in any of the arguments here, but for me the CD era is one of the most exciting/bizarre/disappointing eras of any band I've ever seen.  I'll explain:

Exciting
In my later years in high school my friends and I had GNR on rotation CONSTANTLY.  We were high school kids working a summer job at the local pool club in town.  We drank after hours and blasted GNR and talked endlessly about what Axl was up to.  When Spin magazine released the 'What the World Needs Now is Axl Rose' article we went batshit.  We analyzed every word of every interview in that magazine about the band.  When I went to college my passion for the band continued.  The House of Blues show happened and if I had the money at the time I would have been there without a doubt.  Sadly it didn't happen.  Then the VMAs happened, and although it was for all intents and purposes a subpar showing from Axl, it was so exciting.  The 2002 tour was announced, I had 2nd row tickets to see the band in South Carolina as I was in college in North Carolina at the time.  I could not wait to see the band live finally.  Then... well....

Bizarre  
The Philly riot happened and the tour was off.  I was D-E-V-A-S-T-A-T-E-D.  Then we didn't hear from the band for years.  That period was definitely the darkest years of GNR.  Everything that Axl had worked so hard for was seemingly gone without a trace.  We never got updates from the band, we knew nothing.  Buckethead decided to bolt.  I was so positive that a new album was coming in 2002 and I was convinced it would never see the light of day.  Mike Piazza of all people leaked IRS out of nowhere.  The 2006 tour was announced as were the Hammerstein shows.  We never knew who replaced Buckethead until the night of the first NYC show.  Welcome to the band Bumblefoot!  I attended 3 of the 4 Hammerstein shows and I was feeling great.  The shows were amazing, Axl sounded friggin phenomenal, but after those Hammerstein shows GNR kept playing essentially the same setlist at all shows.

Disappointing
The same set lists continued.  How could a band play essentially the same set list in the same order for over a decade?  CD was released and I was so excited.  I preordered the CD and vinyl and my then girlfriend/now wife went with me to pick up the record.  I had avoided almost all of the leaks because I wanted to hear Axl's vision of the album without having preconceptions.  I took off work the next day and we pounded Nightrain all night while listening to the record.  I loved it.... until I gave it a few more listens.  I have not listened to CD in years now.  I listen to There Was a Time every now and again, but that is the only song I really listen to.  DJ Ashba joined the band and Finck was out.  I avoided all set lists post-CD so that I could be surprised by the new set when I finally got to see GNR.  I saw them at the Meadowlands in NJ and had never watched footage of any show, I vanished from all GNR message boards for years.  I HATED DJ Ashba instantly.  He completely ruined the band live for me.  I went to the UCAP shows in NYC (all of them) and while they were fun and I had a good time, it was still the same setlist and DJ was there.  

In summary, the CD era of the band for me was like this old saying:  In like a lion, out like a lamb.  I am glad its over honestly, but I still look back fondly at those early days of the CD-era band.  Maybe its because I am a sentimental guy and I associate it with my youth, but I remember how pumped I was for GNR at the time.  I hope this new chapter in GNR brings that same excitement for me.  Right now I am cautiously optimistic and I am hoping these shows actually happen.  We'll see I guess!

[COMAMOTIVE]

I could be wrong, but from what I've seen and heard the setlist was anything but "The same" the past 10 years

[WAR41]

I could be wrong, but from what I've seen and heard the setlist was anything but "The same" the past 10 years

Ummm really?  You are telling me that you couldn't guess and probably be right 90% of the time what the next song in their set would be since the HOB show?  I think I can count on one hand how many times they didn't open with Chinese Democracy or WTTJ.  And those were usually special shows that the public was not invited to.  I wish I was like you and felt like I was seeing something new everytime I saw the band.  It was the set list issue that caused me to skip Randalls Island and Brooklyn Bowl when the band came through here, and I am glad I did. 

[jarmo]

Hold on. This is about Chinese Democracy's legacy.

I'm not gonna have yet another thread turn into a Dead Horse topic....
Lately every other thread seems to turn into the kind of stuff we've discussed plenty in the last 10-15 years or so. Sometimes it's hard to tell there's actually any recent news.

Now, back on topic. 



/jarmo

[TheNightrain]

CD Era was very exciting in 2001 after RIR. I do feel there was a lot of wasted time. Its a shame only 1 album came to light. 2006 was a great time as was their return to touring in 09.

I personally am super excited for this next chapter. People ask, can GNR become relevant in 2016? Fuck yeah!

[JAEBALL]

As far as it's legacy... like it or not...It's always going to be known as the GNR record without Slash Duff and Izzy. I think that is obvious.

Some great songs on this album... that will most likely never get their fair shake in hard rock history because of the above.

There will never ever be an article or a breakdown or a review of CD in the future without the mention that it was missing those guys.