Chinese Democracy's Legacy

[WAR41]

Hold on. This is about Chinese Democracy's legacy.

I'm not gonna have yet another thread turn into a Dead Horse topic....
Lately every other thread seems to turn into the kind of stuff we've discussed plenty in the last 10-15 years or so. Sometimes it's hard to tell there's actually any recent news.

Now, back on topic. 



/jarmo

But.... I was responding to what the legacy of Chinese Democracy is to me and explaining why.  Perhaps next time I will just say "Awesome" or "shitty" with no explanation  

[Thorned Rose]

From 2003-2006 or so I was pretty sad about everything.

I had tickets to the Nashville show in 2006 that was postponed to Jan 2007 then cancelled... I was really down.

I had to wait unti 2011 to see them finally.

[Thorned Rose]

I mean am I crazy here? To say CD is better than AFD is simply your opinion too, and that is fine, but I think no matter how you look at it you're fucking nuts if you think CD is a better album than AFD.

It simply isn't. Yeah that is my opinion, based on boat loads of facts. Oh yes... facts. Sales, reviews... impact, impression etc...

I can't believe I am even involving myself in this and taking a counterpoint... I agree with your assessment of AFD over CD... but that is my opinion. I grew up in the 80's, it was the first album that I ever fell in love with front to back For me there is no comparison, it is AFD and everything else.

BUT... you will notice I said 'for me' 'I' 'my opinion'... that is what this is all about. Take out album sales because they don't mean the same thing, streaming and illegal downloads cut into that business a long time ago. Someone may have seen this band for the first time in the mid 2000's, so they know the new lineup, they love their sound and tone. When the album came out that was 'their' version of the band. They listen to CD back to front without finding a weak point. How do you tell that person they are wrong? Is it because it isn't your favorite, my favorite, or Slash's favorite? How does that make them wrong?

I'm not saying it is wrong based on preference. People can like whatever they want. In the end it is opinion. No one can definitively state that AFD is worse than CD though.

But yes, as Jarmo stated. Back on topic people.

[jarmo]

Hold on. This is about Chinese Democracy's legacy.

I'm not gonna have yet another thread turn into a Dead Horse topic....
Lately every other thread seems to turn into the kind of stuff we've discussed plenty in the last 10-15 years or so. Sometimes it's hard to tell there's actually any recent news.

Now, back on topic. 



/jarmo

But.... I was responding to what the legacy of Chinese Democracy is to me and explaining why.  Perhaps next time I will just say "Awesome" or "shitty" with no explanation  

I think the whole setlist conversation has ts place elsewhere.
Sorry that you find the setlist discussion interesting in 2016 and it's such a big part of the album's legacy for you.




/jarmo

[COMAMOTIVE]

Hold on. This is about Chinese Democracy's legacy.

I'm not gonna have yet another thread turn into a Dead Horse topic....
Lately every other thread seems to turn into the kind of stuff we've discussed plenty in the last 10-15 years or so. Sometimes it's hard to tell there's actually any recent news.

Now, back on topic. 



/jarmo

But.... I was responding to what the legacy of Chinese Democracy is to me and explaining why.  Perhaps next time I will just say "Awesome" or "shitty" with no explanation  

First - Peace

2nd - I think it was because you reacted kinda nasty for no reason.
I really wasn't starting anything - even said "I could be wrong" - sometimes these things don't translate well...

Back on point!

[Voodoochild]

I still think we will hear some CD track like Better in a movie somehow. It happened before: Bohemian Rhapsody was never at the top charts in US untill the Wayne's World came out with that scene in the 90s.

According to Tommy it was. Let me see whether I can find the quote.

(...)
"It was a bummer. Most of the songs that are on the record now were done 10 f*cking years ago. But all the talking heads in the mix were saying, Make 'em sound better! Make 'em sound better!' So we kept redoing this and that. And it ended up coming back down to the same f*cking songs that they were 10 years ago, except that now they were a super-dense mishmash of a bunch of instrumentation."

Thanks. I've seen this one before, just didn't remember about it untill you posted it.

I don't know, but it doesn't seem too hard to just strip down the layers and use whatever you think it sounds good on the mix.  I remember reading Axl talking about the record here at the ending of 2008, when someone asked about Scraped leftover scratch or Bumble's ending solo in Catcher that ends with a dry cut... He said something like "every sound in the album was meant to be there".

[inlikeflynn420]

I think the album is awesome. I've played songs from it for many people--on jukeboxes, at work, in my car... and what I found was that the people who thought CD sucked actually thought it was pretty fucking awesome...once they listened to it! So many people dismissed it because they "heard" that it sucked or whatever. First of all, what a fucking lame reason not to give something a listen. Secondly, their loss. I enjoyed every show I saw during the CD era. I wish I would've seen more. Of course, like all of us here, I only wish we could've heard more of what the band recorded. If it's true that the band is going to perform CD era songs (& I REALLY hope they do!), I hope that when these "fans" that climb back aboard hear the songs, they'll think they're awesome and check out the rest of the album. The funny thing is, a lot of those people will probably think they're hearing some kickass brand new song, only to find out its from Chinese Democracy. I personally believe that CD will stand the test of time and get the respect it deserves.

[COMAMOTIVE]

and what I found was that the people who thought CD sucked actually thought it was pretty fucking awesome...once they listened to it! So many people dismissed it because they "heard" that it sucked or whatever. 

Unfortunate to hear, but sadly this does happen. Lends to the notion that if this album didn't have Axl or the Gn'r name associated with it, some naive folks
would think differently - which is kind of hard to fathom but it's sadly true in some cases

[draguns]

For me, it was just good to hear Axl sing again. There are some good songs, but not great. Once when the album aged, I stopped listening to its entirety.  If I do listen to it, it's just for TWAT, Better, Street of Dreams, CD and I.R.S.  I think it was overproduced. As far as the band,  I'm glad that Buckethead and Finck are gone. As I stated before I did like DJ and Bumblefoot since they were most likely to bring back that GNR sound.

[rebelhipi]

CD is the GNR album that i listen to the most of all of their albums. After more than 7 years (that went fast, that sunday morning dosent seem long ago at all) Its not because its the newest one.

So it has held up great for me. Considering both Illusions are my favorite records, not only by gnr but by anyone. Chinese is almost just as great.

[Wooody]

I still think we will hear some CD track like Better in a movie somehow. It happened before: Bohemian Rhapsody was never at the top charts in US untill the Wayne's World came out with that scene in the 90s.

According to Tommy it was. Let me see whether I can find the quote.

(...)
"It was a bummer. Most of the songs that are on the record now were done 10 f*cking years ago. But all the talking heads in the mix were saying, Make 'em sound better! Make 'em sound better!' So we kept redoing this and that. And it ended up coming back down to the same f*cking songs that they were 10 years ago, except that now they were a super-dense mishmash of a bunch of instrumentation."

Thanks. I've seen this one before, just didn't remember about it untill you posted it.

I don't know, but it doesn't seem too hard to just strip down the layers and use whatever you think it sounds good on the mix.  I remember reading Axl talking about the record here at the ending of 2008, when someone asked about Scraped leftover scratch or Bumble's ending solo in Catcher that ends with a dry cut... He said something like "every sound in the album was meant to be there".

You're telling me to Strip down the layers? I don't know how to do that?

On scrapped I believe they where playing with Cut n' paste creatively, it doesnt bother me, I actually think it was original and cool. Catcher does feel dense though with too much going on and I think its a perfect example of what Tommy was talking about.

[jameslofton29]

...the CD era was interesting from a rock and roll history perspective. NO DOUBT. However, it did leave me with a lot of "shoulda coulda woulda's"....we had some top shelf musicians and a lot of potential. Amazing moments and cringe worthy moments but I guess that is Gnr throughout their whole history. My one big regret is that Axl didn't give us his full vision and release all that music at one time. Shock and Awe so to say.

That 2001-02 lineup had massive potential. It was a super group. I'd love to hear the Beavan sessions because that is Chinese Democracy before the label decided to screw the pooch and play a big role in sending it to purgatory. Axl wanted it out then but Iovine and whoever else was involved in cluster fucking it should've been horse whipped for pretty much forcing them to continually add layer after layer to the same damn songs.  Stinson's post CD release interviews were eye opening to say the least and Axl also briefly mentioned some of that shit in the forum chats.       



Hell...Buckmaster and Beltrami worked on completely different songs yet on the finished album wound up being on the same songs together. Strange.

Beltrami:


[GNR] was sort of just work for hire. [...] I met with Axl and he played me these songs, asked me my ideas about them, and I told him what I thought they needed. They gave me four songs to orchestrate. [...] A song called 'Seven,' which is the one [...] I actually wrote a guitar part [on]. There was one called 'Thyme,' one called 'The General,' one called 'Leave Me Alone.'" (Marco Beltrami, IGN, 07/20/03)


"Leave Me Alone," "Seven," and "The General" could also feature on the new album. These three A-listed songs were worked on by Marco Beltrami, especially "Seven," which Marco deems as the best of the three songs. It has also been reported that Marco worked on a fourth track, "Thyme." However, this song was not worked on subsequent to Marco's work in October 2002. (Jeff Leeds, Sp1at website, 06/05)


-----

Buckmaster:


"Paul Buckmaster, a British arranger [...] met Rose in July at LA's Village Recorder studio complex. 'Axl was supposed to be there at 3pm, but turned up at 5,' says Buckmaster. [...] 'Axl [had] recently returned from Malaysia or Indonesia. [...] He [...] ran me through four songs that he wanted to put strings over. [...] We'd be listening to a guitar part and he'd say, 'That's not nearly loud enough'. Anyone else would have said that it was the loudest guitar sound ever recorded.'" (The Times, 03/18/05)

"According to Buckmaster's official discography/list of credits, which can be viewed at this location, he has served as the arranger and conductor on the tracks 'Blues', 'TWAT', 'Madagascar' and 'Prostitute'." (Blabbermouth, 11/23/04)

-----------------

Chinese Democracy album credits:

Street of Dreams:

Paul Buckmaster - Orchestra
Marco Beltrami - Orchestra

There Was A Time:

Paul Buckmaster - Orchestra
Marco Beltrami - Orchestra

Madagascar:

Paul Buckmaster - Orchestra
Marco Beltrami - Orchestra


Prostitute:

Paul Buckmaster - Orchestra
Marco Beltrami - Orchestra


This I Love:

Marco Beltrami - Orchestra

-------------------------------

What happened?

"It was a bummer. Most of the songs that are on the record now were done 10 f*cking years ago. But all the talking heads in the mix were saying, Make 'em sound better! Make 'em sound better!' So we kept redoing this and that. And it ended up coming back down to the same f*cking songs that they were 10 years ago, except that now they were a super-dense mishmash of a bunch of instrumentation."

Yep. Tommy made other comments regarding that as well.  Ezrin also mentioned this aspect of the tracks...

I agreed to go there immediately and listen to a bunch of stuff. What I heard was ? I don?t know how to say this without be insulting, I don?t want to be insulting because he worked very hard on it ? but what I heard was something that he had painted over too many times. So, by the time I heard it, the original content was lost and it was just a highly produced piece of something?

---------

Ezrin was harsh but I bet that 2001 album(s) is incredible. I'd take it over a reunion and/or CD2 with Ashba and Ron any day of the week.

Best thing about the reunion is some of that material might get released in some form. I assume the label is going to want to capitalize on the reunion buzz.

[C0ma]

Hell...Buckmaster and Beltrami worked on completely different songs yet on the finished album wound up being on the same songs together. Strange.

Beltrami:


[GNR] was sort of just work for hire. [...] I met with Axl and he played me these songs, asked me my ideas about them, and I told him what I thought they needed. They gave me four songs to orchestrate. [...] A song called 'Seven,' which is the one [...] I actually wrote a guitar part [on]. There was one called 'Thyme,' one called 'The General,' one called 'Leave Me Alone.'" (Marco Beltrami, IGN, 07/20/03)


"Leave Me Alone," "Seven," and "The General" could also feature on the new album. These three A-listed songs were worked on by Marco Beltrami, especially "Seven," which Marco deems as the best of the three songs. It has also been reported that Marco worked on a fourth track, "Thyme." However, this song was not worked on subsequent to Marco's work in October 2002. (Jeff Leeds, Sp1at website, 06/05)


-----

Buckmaster:


"Paul Buckmaster, a British arranger [...] met Rose in July at LA's Village Recorder studio complex. 'Axl was supposed to be there at 3pm, but turned up at 5,' says Buckmaster. [...] 'Axl [had] recently returned from Malaysia or Indonesia. [...] He [...] ran me through four songs that he wanted to put strings over. [...] We'd be listening to a guitar part and he'd say, 'That's not nearly loud enough'. Anyone else would have said that it was the loudest guitar sound ever recorded.'" (The Times, 03/18/05)

"According to Buckmaster's official discography/list of credits, which can be viewed at this location, he has served as the arranger and conductor on the tracks 'Blues', 'TWAT', 'Madagascar' and 'Prostitute'." (Blabbermouth, 11/23/04)

-----------------

Chinese Democracy album credits:

Street of Dreams:

Paul Buckmaster - Orchestra
Marco Beltrami - Orchestra

There Was A Time:

Paul Buckmaster - Orchestra
Marco Beltrami - Orchestra

Madagascar:

Paul Buckmaster - Orchestra
Marco Beltrami - Orchestra


Prostitute:

Paul Buckmaster - Orchestra
Marco Beltrami - Orchestra


This I Love:

Marco Beltrami - Orchestra

-------------------------------

What happened?

I tend to wonder if those were 'working titles' from the time they touched them. As an example Street of Dreams was The Blues... and he uses 'Street of Dreams' in one line... Prostitute was only used once in that song also could there have been a different title? Where 'Leave me Alone' is a line from Madagascar, could that have been an early working title? is Thyme 'There was a Time'?

[jameslofton29]

I tend to wonder if those were 'working titles' from the time they touched them. As an example Street of Dreams was The Blues... and he uses 'Street of Dreams' in one line... Prostitute was only used once in that song also could there have been a different title? Where 'Leave me Alone' is a line from Madagascar, could that have been an early working title? is Thyme 'There was a Time'?

Yeah some songs did have working titles(Lies They Tell for Scraped) but its more likely that both their arrangements(at least some of it) were layered into the same songs, especially when taking into account how various people have described the continual additions of layers to the material throughout the saga. Once people started making their own mixes with those Rock Band files you could hear what are pretty much entire songs buried underneath. I've heard mixes that sound nothing like they do on the album.

You really think Seven, Thyme, The General, and Leave Me Alone were working titles for The Blues, Madagascar, TWAT, and Prostitute?

[raindog]

It's hard to know what to think about it all at this point. Maybe when we're a bit further removed from it all and we see how/if CD is absorbed into any ongoing version of Guns things will be a bit clearer. Yes, I loved the album. And the 2010 show I attended, and the 2006 one. 2002 seemed very, very different to me than what we ended up with. I think Buckethead's departure had an extremely significant effect on changing Axl's vision of what post-Slash Guns could be.

As long as perhaps 75% of what the various CD era lineups recorded remains unreleased I think there'll always be a portion of fans who think there's unfinished business and can't quite put the lid on the era. But largely the fanbase has moved on from it, as has the media, and seemingly now, the band.

[C0ma]

I tend to wonder if those were 'working titles' from the time they touched them. As an example Street of Dreams was The Blues... and he uses 'Street of Dreams' in one line... Prostitute was only used once in that song also could there have been a different title? Where 'Leave me Alone' is a line from Madagascar, could that have been an early working title? is Thyme 'There was a Time'?

Yeah some songs did have working titles(Lies They Tell for Scraped) but its more likely that both their arrangements(at least some of it) were layered into the same songs, especially when taking into account how various people have described the continual additions of layers to the material throughout the saga. Once people started making their own mixes with those Rock Band files you could hear what are pretty much entire songs buried underneath. I've heard mixes that sound nothing like they do on the album.

You really think Seven, Thyme, The General, and Leave Me Alone were working titles for The Blues, Madagascar, TWAT, and Prostitute?

The General and Seven I'm not sure... I wouldn't doubt though that Madagascar and TWAT had different or working titles... after all he has two songs from the same album that get their titles from basically a single word or phrase said once during the song (Street of Dreams and Prostitute) based on that it's not impossible to think that Madagascar could have had a working title 'Leave Me Alone' as it is a line from the song.

At the same time Use Your Illusion has The Garden and Garden of Eden so it isn't incomprehensible to think that Thyme and There was a Time were different songs from the same session. I just picture Axl or other band members talking in shorthand and calling There Was A Time, 'Thyme' or something like that...

This is the reason why I would love for Axl to sit down and either write a full memoir with Del James, or just a breakdown of the story behind the CD sessions.

[jameslofton29]

The General and Seven I'm not sure... I wouldn't doubt though that Madagascar and TWAT had different or working titles... after all he has two songs from the same album that get their titles from basically a single word or phrase said once during the song (Street of Dreams and Prostitute) based on that it's not impossible to think that Madagascar could have had a working title 'Leave Me Alone' as it is a line from the song.

The name TWAT goes back to the late 90s. Madagascar had been performed a couple years before we ever heard of Thyme or Leave Me Alone. The General definitely cant be a working title for one of the four, same as Seven obviously.


From the Axl chats....

The bridge in "Elvis Presley and the Monster of Soul aka The Soul Monster (working title Leave Me Alone)" which will no doubt end up "Soul Monster".

Asked which song titles are real.....

A: Ides Of March, Oklahoma, Atlas Shrugged,  Oh My God, Silkworms , Down By The Ocean (Izzy), Leave Me Alone, Seven , The General , Thyme , Quick Song , Zodiac Most all titles subject to change w/out warning and r considered working titles. (Axl Rose, chinesedemocracy.com, Dec. 2008)

[C0ma]

One of these days I have to go back and re-read his chats from that time frame...

[zombux]

for quite a comprehensive reference, see this post http://www.chinesedemocracy.com/forum/index.php/topic,45008.0.html
it's possibly not 100% complete, as some more leaks are out there, but the most valuable info are links to first mentions about songs.

[ice cream sand pig]

For me, it's a very conflicted, ambivalent record, and I love that about it.  It so perfectly captures the difficult to reconcile feelings of past failed relationships / tortured experiences.  Regret, resignation/defeat, justification, anger, retribution, needing to get on with life, resoluteness... so much stuff... and never sure which feeling among all those is prevailing.  And what's also great is how the musical layered complexity matches the complexity and paradoxes of the album's themes.  It's a very personal, intense record for me, not something I can listen to casually during my mass transit commute. 

that is some really deep insight. i have never picked up on this aspect of the record, how the paradoxical themes and musical complexity were so complimentary to one another. very good find, thank you for that! this is an all around interesting thread.

also love comas posts about subjectivity and not worrying about what it means to anyone else. thats definitely something important to remember.

it reminds me of being a kid and liking something. someone else doesnt like it and says "why do you even like that?", and then you feel insecure because you dont really know why, you just do. next thing you know you're going along with it, "yeah, i guess it is kind of stupid." but someday you just have to grow up and be independent in your likes and dislikes.