So is Tommy in or out (your opinions)?

[pilferk]

That he says a lot of things. 

I'm not sure how that relates to my point, though.

[Princess Leia]

If the music comes out when he is ready. Then he is not about music. He is about himself, it?s all about when he feels like it

So, to be clear:

If you're working on something at work, and it doesn't meet your standards of quality, and you keep working on it til you feel that it's actually reflective of your ability...that's 100% selfish?

See, I call that taking pride in your work.  I don't think that's selfish, especially when you're trying to put out the best quality product for the person consuming/using it as you can.

I get it: His timetables are ridiculously stretched out.  And his idea of "ready" seems to be idealized to a point where you and I would consider that ridiculous,, too.

But..that's rather the point in all this.  He's not going to release something just to release it....just to make other people happy, or whatever.

 If he is not happy with his product he is assuming I won?t be happy either? He can?t asume how I might feel. And it comes down to he is not happy he won?t do it. So again it is not about music it is about Axl?own happiness and his own personal satisfaction more tan anything else.

[jarmo]

He's also said that they didn't record all this stuff to keep it locked away and have no one ever hear it.

Did he not?

What's your point?

That he says a lot of things. 

And that somehow proves he doesn't have artistic integrity?

Didn't you compare releasing albums to refugees?
You also say a lot of things, many pretty stupid to be frank.



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

That he says a lot of things. 

I'm not sure how that relates to my point, though.

Because you can't highlight the ones you like and pretend you didn't hear the ones that haven't stood up.

Well, you can, but its a bit disingenuous, no?

[D-GenerationX]

He's also said that they didn't record all this stuff to keep it locked away and have no one ever hear it.

Did he not?

What's your point?

That he says a lot of things. 

And that somehow proves he doesn't have artistic integrity?

Didn't you compare releasing albums to refugees?
You also say a lot of things, many pretty stupid to be frank.

Stay classy, big chief.

You stay classy.

[jarmo]

If he is not happy with his product he is assuming I won´t be happy either? He can´t asume how I might feel. And it comes down to he is not happy he won´t do it. So again it is not about music it is about Axl´own happiness and his own personal satisfaction more tan anything else.

Are you saying it's about you? 

Seriously, wow.
That's some weird thinking.

How do you know he's not happy about his art?

Stay classy, big chief.

You stay classy.

Coming from you, I find it puzzling that you'd point out that somebody else talks a lot.
Hello pot....

Yes, I find those comments you made stupid. Sorry.

And again, the condescending comments. Only took you a few days.

Edited to add: I guess you can blame me for saying your comparison was stupid, and therefore I hurt your feelings....



/jarmo

[pilferk]

If he is not happy with his product he is assuming I won?t be happy either? He can?t asume how I might feel. And it comes down to he is not happy he won?t do it. So again it is not about music it is about Axl?own happiness and his own personal satisfaction more tan anything else.

It doesn't matter how YOU, the consumer, feel.  It's his work product, being related to his name.  It's his creation.  It's not done til he thinks it's done.  And until it's done, your (potential or actual) opinion as the consumer doesn't matter.

I write an app. You might very well be satisfied with that app were I to release it today.  But...I look at it and think: I can do better.  I think more people will like it with some refinement, polishing, bug squashing and feature development.

It's MY work product.    I get to decide when I think it's good enough for the light of day.  Not you. That's not what I would call "selfish".

Again, if this were YOU, and you didn't feel like the thing you were working on was ready...regardless of what your friends thought, your focus groups thought, whatever....do you just release it because they tell you to?

Most people would not, when given a choice (and not having the decision directly influenced by a superior).

I'm certainly not going to change your mind. But most reasonable folks don't consider THAT specific sentiment selfishness.  They consider it having a good work ethic.

[pilferk]

Because you can't highlight the ones you like and pretend you didn't hear the ones that haven't stood up.

Well, you can, but its a bit disingenuous, no?

Except...I'm not (and neither is anyone else).  Because no where did Axl say "It's all about the money, money, money".

He said his intent was to release the material at some point.  I don't think that contradicts anything that's been said, or pointed out, so far.

[D-GenerationX]

Except...I'm not (and neither is anyone else).  Because no where did Axl say "It's all about the money, money, money".

He said his intent was to release the material at some point.  I don't think that contradicts anything that's been said, or pointed out, so far.

Taken to it most extreme, it will remain true as long as he's drawing breath on this planet.  So, he's still got around 50 years to play with.

For the record, I don't think he recorded all this stuff just to lock it away.  But I also can't make a real stirring argument that he's doing much to make that happen.

[pilferk]

Taken to it most extreme, it will remain true as long as he's drawing breath on this planet.  So, he's still got around 50 years to play with.

For the record, I don't think he recorded all this stuff just to lock it away.  But I also can't make a real stirring argument that he's doing much to make that happen.

Witness Biggie, Elvis, and the Beatles.  They''re releasing stuff way past the time most of them have been drawing breath. So even that's not a limitation.

And I agree: He's not in a hurry to get that stuff out on shelves, so to speak.  I take that as further evidence that it's not about the money...because he has product that has intrinsic value that, you'd think, is in some semblance of a condition that it could be readied for release to "cash in" on it's value.  But, notice, he's never put a time table on releasing that material, either.

But he doesn't.  He has other things, as well, that have intrinsic value if released.  And yet...nada.

My assumption, based on my interpretation of past actions, history, etc is because he's not happy with the material, or the way the material would be released, as it is, now.  He doesn't think it's "ready" for release, for whatever reason.

Yours might be different. Fair enough. 

I also want to point out something (and I'm not pointing at you) many folks forget: There is a difference between saying things that you know not to be true (aka a lie) and things that turn out not to be true (being wrong).

I know, THIS bit gets repeated like a mantra, but its true: Shit happens. Things change.

[LongGoneDay]

So music is all that matters to Axl, and he has more musical and artistic integrity than anyone Richard has ever met, and that translates to one album in 24 years..

The only thing that GN?R seems to do these days is tour, which also happens to be the only way bands make money today.
So, yea, I?m sure Axl isn?t lacking in the artistic integrity department, but he clearly likes his money, too.
Like just about every other human being on the planet.
He?s not playing all these concerts for free, and he?s not playing all these songs solely for our personal enjoyment.

Keep in mind: Releasing and creating are two very different things.

He's RELEASED 24 tracks.  That's an indication of commercial productivity...not artistic productivity.

My wife was a pro photog before we had kids.  She'd take HUNDREDS of photos before she'd get one she liked.  Of the couple dozen she had that she liked, she might actually try to sell one or two.  

Painters will paint hundreds of canvases...and maybe try to sell a dozen of them.

If the ART is your focus...and not just being commercially prolific...yeah, I'd expect the volume of material to be less. Quality vs quantity.

You can argue that Axl's standards are almost impossibly high.....I think we're all there...but trying to say he does it all for $$ or fame?  Sorry, events just don't support that.

As for the tours: I honestly think those were about getting the OTHER band members paid, so they could continue to work together.  And maybe get the musical portions to "blend" for recording/creative purposes.

I get it. I make my living in the arts myself(not comparing myself to Axl in any way) so can relate to not being happy with one?s own art, or not knowing when something is done and ready for release.

I don?t pretend to know if that?s the case with Axl or not.
I know a lot of people want to assume it is, myself included, because him living off his past accomplishments, while it is a right he?s earned, isn?t as sexy a story.

Regardless, I?m not calling his artistic integrity into question, nor do I believe he is in it solely for the money or fame.
I think he will take it all, and there?s nothing wrong with that.

To believe Axl is only in it for the music would be beyond naive in my opinion, regardless of what Richard thinks/says.

[D-GenerationX]

To believe Axl is only in it for the music would be beyond naive in my opinion, regardless of what Richard thinks/says.

I think its just a thing you say.

Like how people say "no one cares about their players more than Coach <insert name here>."

Its not literal.  Just a figure of speech.

[pilferk]

To believe Axl is only in it for the music would be beyond naive in my opinion, regardless of what Richard thinks/says.

Again, I'm sure Axl wants to eat, and pay the bills.  I'm not saying money isn't a consideration AT ALL, or wouldn't be in different circumstances.

But, at this point, I don't think it's his primary one.  I think the guy has bank.  He ended up with a sweetheart contract that granted him carte blanche autonomy, to some extent (this bit is my assumption, fyi).  I think, since he's comfortable at this point, money isn't what gets him out of bed every morning. It's not what, IMHO, he uses to fuel his decision making process.  He's not thinking "how can I monetize these creations as quickly, and as fully, as possible".  He's primarily gauging the quality of the material vs his own (and again, you can argue they are almost impossibly high) standards as ready for release.  I think, in essence, that's what "all about the music" means.  If he were 25 again, young, with an empty belly?  That very well might change.

And I think fame?  I think he views that as a necessary evil that goes along with what he wants to do, potentially...and not the thing he aspires to get.

[Princess Leia]

If he is not happy with his product he is assuming I won?t be happy either? He can?t asume how I might feel. And it comes down to he is not happy he won?t do it. So again it is not about music it is about Axl?own happiness and his own personal satisfaction more tan anything else.

Are you saying it's about you? 

Seriously, wow.
That's some weird thinking.

How do you know he's not happy about his art?

Stay classy, big chief.

You stay classy.

Coming from you, I find it puzzling that you'd point out that somebody else talks a lot.
Hello pot....

Yes, I find those comments you made stupid. Sorry.

And again, the condescending comments. Only took you a few days.

Edited to add: I guess you can blame me for saying your comparison was stupid, and therefore I hurt your feelings....



/jarmo

No, I?m saying when it comes to music or movies. What?s perfect and great for you it might not be the same for the rest of world. Sure an artist has to be happy with what they do. But seeking perfection is something else. Maybe there is no such thing as perfect. Or what is perfect for you it might not be for everyone else. Some people might think it is just good, other might think it is bad.

And this is something that Axl must know at this point. I really do not think Axl is seeking perfection. Nor I think Axl is about music. I?m not even sure if Axl himself ever said he was about music. There are many things other people have said about Axl.

All I know is this. The last time Axl spoke about another album he said he was looking into that regard very seriously. Those are a bunch a words that really don?t mean a whole lot.

[Wooody]

You answered your own question.
He puts out his music when he's ready to. Not when others think he should.

Tours also cost time and money.
Nice try.


The usual suspects who have a hard time giving Axl any credit are once again questioning him....
Is it that difficult to give him some credit?




/jarmo

Not to sound like the usual suspects   But ?. (There's a But)


I do think Axl's got music integrity, and I do think in his own way he is all about the music. But was he ever ready with Chinese Democracy ? Nevermind, the cover and its print, or the business of it all, Im asking about the music aspect of Chinese Democracy, and this is why I ask:

 He said in an interview or web chat something like how he  wanted the lyrics for Sorry to be better written, or that he wished he had found better lyrics,  but he settled on those. He said it in a way that made me feel like he couldn't find the write lyrics for the whole song, or that he felt like some lyrics just didnt fit but he left them anyway.

Its understandable in a way to me because Ive done that too on a few songs I write,  when I feel like I just want to write and play a sing and have fun, but don't want to go through the hassle of making it perfect. Making music is sometimes very easy, but sometimes very hard. But when you have gone through years of choosing a handful of songs  to make an album, and you decide to include a song that you don't feel is finished in the sense that everything feels finished or right, It makes me wonder whether the 70 or 300 songs that he has on his vault are like Sorry. Songs that may appear finished like Sorry, but somewhat feel unfinished because there are things either in the lyrics or structures that do not feel right.

This is interesting to me because I like to write music and I know what it is to deal with inspiration. A lot of times you want to play and sing the whole day, but nothing you sing or play sounds cool and it is somewhat frustrating, and then at other times you write an entire song in 4 minutes and it comes out perfect.

But the attitude on Sorry was not the same as the one in COMA, Axl said in an interview or something how he struggled to find the lyrics for COMA, months went by and he was not able to find anything, but he was singing in the shower or something one day and it suddenly hit him, and everything fit, and he was able to finish the song. That to  me is very cool, because he didnt finish the song until it felt right, he didnt just write some random lyrics because the song needed to be finished, rather he finished the song because he found the perfect lyrics and melodies for the song.


So if he did have other finished songs on the vault, why not decide to include those and  keep Sorry for ''the second half of Chinese'', or until he felt it was finished. I wonder about that.

[pilferk]

No, I?m saying when it comes to music or movies. What?s perfect and great for you it might not be the same for the rest of world. Sure an artist has to be happy with what they do. But seeking perfection is something else. Maybe there is no such thing as perfect. Or what is perfect for you it might not be for everyone else. Some people might think it is just good, other might think it is bad.

And this is something that Axl must know at this point. I really do not think Axl is seeking perfection. Nor I think Axl is about music. I?m not even sure if Axl himself ever said he was about music. There are many things other people have said about Axl.

All I know is this. The last time Axl spoke about another album he said he was looking into that regard very seriously. Those are a bunch a words that really don?t mean a whole lot.

So..here's my question.  I'm gonna make up a completely fictitious scenario, and then you tell me if it's at least a reasonable consideration:

Axl says "We're going to seriously look at things in that regard" or whatever concerning the new album.

Almost everyone's contracts are up.  He's not worried about getting anyone a paycheck, etc.

Then, he goes on vacation for a couple months to recharge and maybe play around with some ideas.

He comes back he does start to consider the material.  We saw some evidence of that late last year and into early this year.  He's playing with mixing it, messing with arrangements, etc.  Using the pieces they've already recorded to start to assemble "stuff".

But, during that process, BBF pretty much leaves (or starts insinuating he's left).  And so that throws some uncertainty into the mix.

Then...somehow, someway....he and Slash start to talk. Maybe Duff acts as an intermediary. I don't know.  Whatever.  But they start to "rekindle".

And, at that point...Axl feels like maybe, just maybe, he can see a way clear to, literally, get the band back together.  I mean...he has no real committments from anyone, contracts are up...from that standpoint, the way is clear.  He and Slash are getting on, they're working through their issues (I'm totally imagining the two of them in a room with a couples councilor as I type this)...and...he's seriously giving consideration to something else.

He sort of abandons the old stuff, at that point, because...well, maybe there's this new thing.  And as it progresses, he keeps Tommy and DJ in the loop, so to speak, at least in terms of his plans for them, coming up.  And he keeps Frank, Richard, DJ, and Pittman likewise appraised of his plans for THEM.

And things continue to progress.

Now, here's the question:

Is the above scenario, fictitious as shit mind you, at least reasonable?

And, if it is...are we still supposed to give Axl shit for his comments in June of 2014?  Because shit changed direction?

I know, I know: We DON'T know. And Axl's track record isn't spotless, here.   So, at this point, it's fair to bring up.  But just keep in mind that, again, there is a difference between "words being meaningless" and shit changing.

In this case, we have SOME tenuous basis to think there might be a REASON what he said didn't turn out the way he might have thought, at the time. Maybe.

If, in 3 months, 6 months...next December...we're still having this conversation, then, yeah, I get it.  I even got it about 4 months back, before these rumors started up. But right now?  I think we're in a wait and see, at least for a bit, before we can come down too hard on him for that particular sentence.

[pilferk]

You answered your own question.
He puts out his music when he's ready to. Not when others think he should.

Tours also cost time and money.
Nice try.


The usual suspects who have a hard time giving Axl any credit are once again questioning him....
Is it that difficult to give him some credit?




/jarmo

Not to sound like the usual suspects   But ?. (There's a But)


I do think Axl's got music integrity, and I do think in his own way he is all about the music. But was he ever ready with Chinese Democracy ? Nevermind, the cover and its print, or the business of it all, Im asking about the music aspect of Chinese Democracy, and this is why I ask:

 He said in an interview or web chat something like how he  wanted the lyrics for Sorry to be better written, or that he wished he had found better lyrics,  but he settled on those. He said it in a way that made me feel like he couldn't find the write lyrics for the whole song, or that he felt like some lyrics just didnt fit but he left them anyway.

Its understandable in a way to me because Ive done that too on a few songs I write,  when I feel like I just want to write and play a sing and have fun, but don't want to go through the hassle of making it perfect. Making music is sometimes very easy, but sometimes very hard. But when you have gone through years of choosing a handful of songs  to make an album, and you decide to include a song that you don't feel is finished in the sense that everything feels finished or right, It makes me wonder whether the 70 or 300 songs that he has on his vault are like Sorry. Songs that may appear finished like Sorry, but somewhat feel unfinished because there are things either in the lyrics or structures that do not feel right.

This is interesting to me because I like to write music and I know what it is to deal with inspiration. A lot of times you want to play and sing the whole day, but nothing you sing or play sounds cool and it is somewhat frustrating, and then at other times you write an entire song in 4 minutes and it comes out perfect.

But the attitude on Sorry was not the same as the one in COMA, Axl said in an interview or something how he struggled to find the lyrics for COMA, months went by and he was not able to find anything, but he was singing in the shower or something one day and it suddenly hit him, and everything fit, and he was able to finish the song. That to  me is very cool, because he didnt finish the song until it felt right, he didnt just write some random lyrics because the song needed to be finished, rather he finished the song because he found the perfect lyrics and melodies for the song.


So if he did have other finished songs on the vault, why not decide to include those and  keep Sorry for ''the second half of Chinese'', or until he felt it was finished. I wonder about that.

From some of Axl's other comments, about other songs (even on UYI), I think there are just songs that stick in his craw as "not right".  Back with AFD and UYI, he had other band mates who had some say who would tell him they were ready.  And they'd push it out the door.

His comments on Sorry remind me of that.  I think he was probably convinced, by either band mates or by management or by a label rep (hahahahahaha) that Sorry was ready to go.  And I think that can happen with other material BUT (and this is the big caveat) I think it's a small segment of folks who can have that kind of influence on him, and I think they are reluctant to use it, mostly.  Much like he had no intention of putting "This I love" on their, but was convinced by the rest of his band mates.

I think the best way for me to explain it is: I think he's very PROTECTIVE of the material.  Almost like the songs were actual living beings...like his children, kinda.  I know that's a weird analogy, but it's the sense I get.  Maybe I'm way off base.  But maybe in some respects....they are, to him.  They're little pieces of himself he's potentially shipping off to exist in the world.  And he wants them to be their best "selves".

I know, weird and deep and all that. And I'm literally trying to read a guys mind who I've never met.  But, again, its always the sort of sense I've gotten.

[The Wight Gunner]

You might  think he's  produce a lack mass output, but the label and past  management have had their part to play in this, The CD story of rerecording and changing producers is testament to this...

[jarmo]

No, I?m saying when it comes to music or movies. What?s perfect and great for you it might not be the same for the rest of world. Sure an artist has to be happy with what they do. But seeking perfection is something else. Maybe there is no such thing as perfect. Or what is perfect for you it might not be for everyone else. Some people might think it is just good, other might think it is bad.

And this is something that Axl must know at this point. I really do not think Axl is seeking perfection. Nor I think Axl is about music. I?m not even sure if Axl himself ever said he was about music. There are many things other people have said about Axl.

All I know is this. The last time Axl spoke about another album he said he was looking into that regard very seriously. Those are a bunch a words that really don?t mean a whole lot.

Obviously not.

But if your art is important, if you have integrity, you don't try to please the rest of the world.
You make things that you are proud of. Even if you know it might not be what your fans might be into. You still do it.

If you're motivated by money, then all that is secondary. As long as you get paid.
I don't see that in Axl or GN'R.



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

If, in 3 months, 6 months...next December...we're still having this conversation, then, yeah, I get it.  I even got it about 4 months back, before these rumors started up. But right now?  I think we're in a wait and see, at least for a bit, before we can come down too hard on him for that particular sentence.

I was with you on that entire post until this bit.

There is never a time for that conversation, in my experience.  It's always out of line.

If 365 days from now, we are having this exact conversation and nothing will have happened in a full year's time, let's not then pretend there is going to be this sudden appetite for some hard questions.