What parts are Robin's and Paul's on CD (the album, not the song?)

[CherryGarcia]

Given that Robin & Paul were the primary writers on most of CD, I'd really like to know which parts were exactly theirs on each song, if possible? I know Robin does the solo on TIL, but am unclear on his other parts, same goes for Paul.

[jarmo]

Is the listing of notes they wrote enough or do you want the exact times their written parts appear in each song?




/jarmo



PS Good luck!

[sky dog]

trolling big time......

[sky dog]

Three Billy Goats Gruff.......

The story introduces three male goats, sometimes identified in the story as youngster, father and grandfather, but more often described as brothers. In other renditions, there is a baby or child goat, mama goat and papa goat. In any case, there is no grass left for them to eat near where they live, so they must cross a river to get to a "s?ter" (a meadow) or hillside on the other side of a stream in order to eat and get fat. To do so, they must first cross a bridge, under which lives a fearsome troll who eats anyone who passes that way.

The smallest billy goat is the first to cross and is stopped abruptly by the troll, who threatens to "gobble him up!" The little goat convinces him to wait for another slightly bigger billy goat to come across because he is larger and a more gratifying feast. The greedy troll agrees and lets the smallest of the goats cross.

The medium-sized goat passes next. He is more cautious than his brother, but is also stopped by the troll and given the same threat. The second billy goat is allowed to cross as well after he tells the troll to wait for the biggest billy goat because he is the biggest.

The third billy goat then gets on the bridge and is stopped by the hungry troll. When the troll gets up on the bridge, however, the third billy goat is so big that he easily kicks the troll off the bridge. The troll falls into the stream. From then on the bridge is safe, and all three goats are able to go to the rich fields around the summer farm in the hills. They all live happily ever after. The troll still lives under the bridge, but has not bothered anyone again.

[CherryGarcia]

I was genuinely curious because they're the guys who first really wrote and worked on the material and it is hard to make out who plays what on the album. I figured some here might have a better idea than me as to who plays what. Sorry that's so offensive.

[sky dog]

bait and switch are your tactics....but to your point, I would be interested as well but with 6 guitars in the mix....Good luck! It's easy to tell who plays the solos and they are documented in the liner notes...

[CherryGarcia]

bait and switch are your tactics....but to your point, I would be interested as well but with 6 guitars in the mix....Good luck! It's easy to tell who plays the solos and they are documented in the liner notes...

Actually I have no tactics. I'm interested mainly in discussion. Have said it before, will say it again....I like all eras of the band. I disagree with some of the decisions that have been made over the past 20 years. I wish there was more material to talk about. I wish Robin and Paul were in the band as the 2001 lineup represents my favorite era of the new band, and the UYI lineup represents my favorite era of the old band. I think both Axl and Slash are about equal to blame for the mid 90s dissolution of the old band. Yes, I know about the solos...I was talking more about the leads/rhythm bits. For me, lead and rhythm parts give more of an insight into a guitarist's style than solos. And Robin and Paul interest me most because they composed the bulk of the material and I think the Robin/Paul/Tommy/Josh/Dizzy/Chris era, from everything I have read, seems to best represent Axl's unsullied vision for the band. Also, because with BBF, DJ and Bucket, there's a ton of other stuff I can listen to which features their playing outside of Guns, so I have an idea of what they sound like both in Guns and on their own...Whereas with Paul you have nothing really outside of Mank Rage's demos and Robin playing NiN material live...I would honestly love solo records from both Robin and Paul. I find them really interesting players and perhaps the most important members in GN'R's history after 1985-1990 lineup and certainly the most important of the new era. These are the guys chose for the new band before anyone else, his first choices. They're the Slash and Izzy of the new band.

[jarmo]

Just a hint. If you post a lot of stuff that are bordering on what could be seen as trolling, don't expect others to take anything you say seriously after that....




/jarmo

[sky dog]

good post...can't say I disagree with any of it. You left out Richard though....he is a helluva player.

[CherryGarcia]

Just a hint. If you post a lot of stuff that are bordering on what could be seen as trolling, don't expect others to take anything you say seriously after that....

Look, I am asking a genuine question. Just because you and I disagree on some issues doesn't mean I literally hate Axl or the new band or whatever. If I didn't I wouldn't give a shit less about who plays what on CD or try to promote Paul Huge's solo work. I like the new band's stuff, I like the old band's stuff, I wish there was more of it on both ends. You probably disagree but the 1997-1999 era of the new band interests me the most, and Robin & Paul (along with Dizzy) were the leading guys in terms of songwriting in that era, and they're the guys who Axl chose to replace Slash and Izzy. He could've chosen anyone in the world at that time, he could've finally achieved his goal of having Dave Navarro or Zakk Wylde in Guns but he chose Robin. He could've picked any guy on earth for rhythm but chose Paul, and created some of the best tunes on CD with him. It makes that duo really interesting to me. They're the Batman and Robin of the new band.

[jarmo]

Yes, yes. Just telling you how people work.

We had a discussion about Paul a few days ago. I think there were some that decided it would've been better if Axl hadn't picked Paul... At least not for the recording that was his first with the band.
Just shows you how a decision they don't agree with turned into something that interests you.



/jarmo

[CherryGarcia]

good post...can't say I disagree with any of it. You left out Richard though....he is a helluva player.

Thing is, for me, Robin and Paul interest me from both a creative and guitar playing standpoint.
Richard is awesome live but I've yet to hear him write something for Guns. If/when the next record comes out, I hope he was able to write something for it. He really is a great player. But CD (and probably CD 2 - just guessing) will probably be credited mostly to Paul and Robin (with some Bucket) in terms of the guitar work, so those two fascinate me.

I mean, think of it...In 1997, Axl was at the top of the world in terms of industry influence and label support. He probably had his pick of any guitar player on Earth, and out of everyone available, he chose Robin, Robin moved him enough that within 2 years of him joining, there was already two albums of material in the can - That's incredibly prolific. This was the guy Axl specifically chose to replace Slash - that says something, that speaks to, from Axl's POV, a magic talent he saw in Robin. With Paul, Paul's an interesting cause because again Axl could've chosen someone more well known, more experienced. But he chose Paul, and Paul co-wrote one of my favorite GN'R songs (OMG). Paul's also interesting because he was used sort of as Slash, Duff and Matt's scapegoat, the focal point which broke apart the UYI lineup...Yet, his licks on Sympathy and his writing credits on CD show me he was no "bedroom guitar player" as Slash said he was, but an actually gifted guy. I want to hear more from both....I was never really at all into Bumblefoot and Buckethead I'm of mixed opinions on...I like what he added to songs like TWAT but IMO Guns never needed a virtuoso player.

[CherryGarcia]

Yes, yes. Just telling you how people work.

We had a discussion about Paul a few days ago. I think there were some that decided it would've been better if Axl hadn't picked Paul... At least not for the recording that was his first with the band.
Just shows you how a decision they don't agree with turned into something that interests you.



/jarmo

Well, I think those 'some' were wrong. Paul's parts IMO kick ass on Sympathy, which is actually why I've been interested in him lately. He has a very '90s style of guitar playing from the bits that I've heard, a natural rhythm player. I would kill to hear more of his stuff. He also seems like a dedicated guy - I remember reading that it was he, Paul, who was keeping track of everything for Guns' from an organizational standpoint, and also, there was an interview as early as 1988 where Axl happened to mention Paul and he described Paul as a "Page fanatic" who introduced him to bluesy guitar playing...So, the guy, as mysterious as he is, kinda fascinates me.

[jarmo]

Yeah, can't please everyone. 

By the way, talking of Robin. Chris Vrenna was there for a short moment. Not sure if they recorded or not.





/jarmo

[CherryGarcia]

Yeah, can't please everyone. 

By the way, talking of Robin. Chris Vrenna was there for a short moment. Not sure if they recorded or not.





/jarmo

Would be really cool if they did. I'm sure there's probably some sketch of a demo from that period. Moby said in Dec 97 there was a "closet full" of DAT tapes...I'm almost positive there was a TON of stuff recorded in the 1994-1998 period...Which hopefully we'll someday hear.

[...] 'At the risk of sounding like a sleazy music biz guy, I met with Axl last week to hear their new demos,' said Moby while he was discussing the future of electronica on a panel at Austin, Texas' South by Southwest Conference. 'They're writing with a lot of loops, and believe it or not, they're doing it better than anybody I've heard lately.'" (Moby, Allstar, 03/18/97)

"'The music they're working on has a very dramatic quality to it. They're using some modern technology. Axl's really excited about sampling. He loves the DJ Shadow record and Nine Inch Nails. The stuff I've heard is much more concise than, say, 'November Rain.' Not bombastic. Very stripped down. Very intense. It's not hard-rock music in the way that 'Welcome to the Jungle' was.'" (Moby, Icon Magazine, 10/97)

"The group have brought in several guitarists to lay down what was described as 'sketches and ideas for guitar parts on the demos,' including a young, unnamed fresh face Rose has apparently taken a shine to." (Addicted to Noise, 03/19/97)

"The story goes that Moby [...] went in to soak up some music compiled on nearly 300 DAT tapes that the band had filled with what the source described as 'ideas, loops and sketches,' and was duly impressed with what Rose and crew had come up with." (Addicted to Noise, 03/19/97)

"April of '[97], right after Matt Sorum left the band... I got a call from those guys about going down and jamming... Duff was still in it... They had already gotten Robin Finck... [Axl] is super well-listened. He was always a big Nails fan... They wanted the option of experimenting with electronics... My role was supposed to be drumming and programming." (Chris Vrenna, Spin, 07/99)

"The rehearsals with [Dave] Abruzzesse and [Chris Vrenna] as a duo were really cool; it was a shame then that it didn't work out." (Axl, Spinner, 02/27/09)

"I'd helped write and arrange and recorded enough songs for several records. [...] Honestly, we recorded so many different song ideas and completed so many different types of songs; from quiet, very simple traditional piano songs to 16 stereo tracks of keyboard blur and everything in between. [...] Most of the stronger songs that ended up on A-lists when I was there were huge rock songs, built for the masses, really guitar-driven." (Robin, Wall of Sound, 05/00)

"We wrote and rehearsed and argued and laboriously recorded several records worth of musical material, which to the best of my knowledge Axl is still finishing. But my work was through. We had dozens of finished songs, as far as I was concerned, and we were waiting for Axl to complete the songs." (Robin, 2000)

"'I was with Axl for a little over two years,' [Finck] says, 'and we recorded dozens of songs together. I'm really proud of what we did as a band. I'm anxious to see how it's completed.' Well, will it be? 'Oh, yes,' Finck says, grinning. 'You may depend on it.'" (Robin, Rolling Stone, 10/99)

I'd be shocked if there wasn't tons of (instrumental) tapes of this stuff.

[jarmo]

Nice quotes.

That was a time when there really wasn't a whole lot of updates going on.... Before Twitter and social media.




/jarmo

[TheBaconman]

This is really why I would love a coffee table book made one day about the story of Chinese Democracy

Pictures and interviews of all the artists involved in the process.

You could have guys say, if you listen to this song at this point that's me, and its my fav work I did on the album

Right now as it is.  I don't think many people can break down any song and give specific examples of who is playing what where

[EmilyGNR]

Speaking of Chris Vrenna, great interview with him here-


Excerpt:
Rafi: I know you worked with Axl Rose on Guns N� Roses for a bit, but then declined to be part of the band. What happened there?

Chris Vrenna: Well that was right after I had left NIN and Robin Finck was in the band as well after leaving NIN and Cirque du Soleil. Axl Rose is a much more forward thinking person than people give him credit for, very smart and well read guy.

 Axl really loved NIN, in one of his music videos he is even wearing the old white NIN �Sin� t-shirt. I was in the band for a few months and Moby was going to produce the album at the time. It was a brutal schedule of working five nights a week from 10am to 6pm, Axl came down there maybe a hand full of times.

 It was just not what I was looking for at the time, I knew that this process was going to last a few years, and I had just left NIN so I was really anxious to get back out there and work with other people. But it was really cool, getting to hang out with all of them. We ended up playing the whole �Appetite for Destruction� album from top to bottom, which really made me happy to get that opportunity.

http://vampirefreaks.com/content/comment.php?entry=447&t=Interview%20with%20Chris%20Vrenna%20%28NIN%20/%20Marilyn%20Manson%29

[D-GenerationX]

I sort of figured Paul was more involved in writing and creation than playing.

Anyone else?

For instance, when Axl said what he said about Paul at RIRIII, I always assumed that meant he was someone Axl could work with and bounce shit off.

[Spirit]

This is really why I would love a coffee table book made one day about the story of Chinese Democracy

Pictures and interviews of all the artists involved in the process.

You could have guys say, if you listen to this song at this point that's me, and its my fav work I did on the album

Right now as it is.  I don't think many people can break down any song and give specific examples of who is playing what where

Jarmo aired the idea of anniversary editions of Guns albums in another thread. If there ever will be an anniversary or new special edition of CD, a book like you described would have to be included.