Izzy's "demotion"

[Wooody]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

that's where you and me disagree in our point of view. You consider GNR to be GNR when it got the name. I consider GNR to be GNR when it got an identity. You seem to consider evolution as the revolving door of musicians, I consider evolution the sound of the band. One band member leaving may not impact the sound of the band, but deciding to drastically change the sound of the band does. However I don't think Axl actually achieved it. Adding little farts to better doesnt make it industrial. To me Chinese Democracy does sound like a GNR album. That's why I say there's not much evolution.
UYI evolved much more from AFD, not because it had Matt Sorum, but because Axl and Slash drove their sound in uncharted territory

Nobody added "little farts" to the music. It's very clear what your direction and agenda is here.

I personally think Chinese Democracy was an evolution from the UYIs much like they were from Appetite.

I have no Agenda, but saying I do is a good way to not add anything to the conversation.  I love better. But I would rather listen to the Demos and the live performances than the song on the album, those do not have those unnecessary little farts that sound bad on my very good audio technica headphones.

[TheBaconman]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

that's where you and me disagree in our point of view. You consider GNR to be GNR when it got the name. I consider GNR to be GNR when it got an identity. You seem to consider evolution as the revolving door of musicians, I consider evolution the sound of the band. One band member leaving may not impact the sound of the band, but deciding to drastically change the sound of the band does. However I don't think Axl actually achieved it. Adding little farts to better doesnt make it industrial. To me Chinese Democracy does sound like a GNR album. That's why I say there's not much evolution.
UYI evolved much more from AFD, not because it had Matt Sorum, but because Axl and Slash drove their sound in uncharted territory

Nobody added "little farts" to the music. It's very clear what your direction and agenda is here.

I personally think Chinese Democracy was an evolution from the UYIs much like they were from Appetite.

I like Chinese.

But to call it a evolution, is a stretch

It is just a different album than that of Appetite or the UYI.   Not a evolution

[EmilyGNR]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

that's where you and me disagree in our point of view. You consider GNR to be GNR when it got the name. I consider GNR to be GNR when it got an identity. You seem to consider evolution as the revolving door of musicians, I consider evolution the sound of the band. One band member leaving may not impact the sound of the band, but deciding to drastically change the sound of the band does. However I don't think Axl actually achieved it. Adding little farts to better doesnt make it industrial. To me Chinese Democracy does sound like a GNR album. That's why I say there's not much evolution.
UYI evolved much more from AFD, not because it had Matt Sorum, but because Axl and Slash drove their sound in uncharted territory

Nobody added "little farts" to the music. It's very clear what your direction and agenda is here.

I personally think Chinese Democracy was an evolution from the UYIs much like they were from Appetite.

I have no Agenda, but saying I do is a good way to not add anything to the conversation.  I love better. But I would rather listen to the Demos and the live performances than the song on the album, those do not have those unnecessary little farts that sound bad on my very good audio technica headphones.

How am I supposed to take you seriously when you describe the music as having "little farts" added?

Laughable.

[EmilyGNR]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

that's where you and me disagree in our point of view. You consider GNR to be GNR when it got the name. I consider GNR to be GNR when it got an identity. You seem to consider evolution as the revolving door of musicians, I consider evolution the sound of the band. One band member leaving may not impact the sound of the band, but deciding to drastically change the sound of the band does. However I don't think Axl actually achieved it. Adding little farts to better doesnt make it industrial. To me Chinese Democracy does sound like a GNR album. That's why I say there's not much evolution.
UYI evolved much more from AFD, not because it had Matt Sorum, but because Axl and Slash drove their sound in uncharted territory

Nobody added "little farts" to the music. It's very clear what your direction and agenda is here.

I personally think Chinese Democracy was an evolution from the UYIs much like they were from Appetite.

I like Chinese.

But to call it a evolution, is a stretch

It is just a different album than that of Appetite or the UYI.   Not a evolution

That is subjective, that is the way you see it but not the way I do.

I see it as a natural progression and evolution from the illusions.

[TheBaconman]

And there is a difference between talking about how the business structure worked in guns apposed to how the lineups are

I refer to old gnr, as 1995 and prior.  When there was actual full time band members with equal say.  (was!, not all)

I refer to new gnr, as 1995 to present.  After Axl quit, started the business fresh, tried to make everyone employees and gone where the full time band members with equal say..

I don't make the division there and most certainly don't employ your questionable and debatable constraints and descriptions.

With new gnr post 1995, what I see most evident with the band are.  Lack of new music and lack of press.  Prior to 1995, the band was making/releasing music all the time.  The band was constantly doing interviews.  After 1995, when Axl became the boss, it seems we have gotten a lot less music and lot less interviews

[D-GenerationX]

Quick question.

Have any of you ever come across anyone that is so all in with this being a straight line evolution of the same band that DIDN'T get their backs up over every little thing?

In other words, its just another perceived slight to add to the list.  I can't really think of anyone that is so gung-ho about it that wasn't hypersensitive about, well, everything with this band.

[EmilyGNR]

And there is a difference between talking about how the business structure worked in guns apposed to how the lineups are

I refer to old gnr, as 1995 and prior.  When there was actual full time band members with equal say.  (was!, not all)

I refer to new gnr, as 1995 to present.  After Axl quit, started the business fresh, tried to make everyone employees and gone where the full time band members with equal say..

I don't make the division there and most certainly don't employ your questionable and debatable constraints and descriptions.

With new gnr post 1995, what I see most evident with the band are.  Lack of new music and lack of press.  Prior to 1995, the band was making/releasing music all the time.  The band was constantly doing interviews.  After 1995, when Axl became the boss, it seems we have gotten a lot less music and lot less interviews

There was a lot going on in various years, I don't think it is that cut and dry and I consider all the many circumstances surrounding.

Who is "we"?

[TheBaconman]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

that's where you and me disagree in our point of view. You consider GNR to be GNR when it got the name. I consider GNR to be GNR when it got an identity. You seem to consider evolution as the revolving door of musicians, I consider evolution the sound of the band. One band member leaving may not impact the sound of the band, but deciding to drastically change the sound of the band does. However I don't think Axl actually achieved it. Adding little farts to better doesnt make it industrial. To me Chinese Democracy does sound like a GNR album. That's why I say there's not much evolution.
UYI evolved much more from AFD, not because it had Matt Sorum, but because Axl and Slash drove their sound in uncharted territory

Nobody added "little farts" to the music. It's very clear what your direction and agenda is here.

I personally think Chinese Democracy was an evolution from the UYIs much like they were from Appetite.

I like Chinese.

But to call it a evolution, is a stretch

It is just a different album than that of Appetite or the UYI.   Not a evolution

That is subjective, that is the way you see it but not the way I do.

I see it as a natural progression and evolution from the illusions.

For myself, to be a evolution of music, there would have to be a continuum of musicians in the band.....  With guns there is only one member who has continuously been in the line up..   So to call the albums a evolution is wrong.  They are just different.  And to call them a evolution of just Axl, is also wrong.  Because CD is the first guns album he had full power and say on.   Now of the next album came out with the exact same musicians on it as CD and has a different sound, that could be argued as a evolution

[D-GenerationX]

For myself, to be a evolution of music, there would have to be a continuum of musicians in the band.....  With guns there is only one member who has continuously been in the line up..   So to call the albums a evolution is wrong.  They are just different.  And to call them a evolution of just Axl, is also wrong.  Because CD is the first guns album he had full power and say on.   Now of the next album came out with the exact same musicians on it as CD and has a different sound, that could be argued as a evolution

It's certainly a stronger argument.

[Wooody]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

that's where you and me disagree in our point of view. You consider GNR to be GNR when it got the name. I consider GNR to be GNR when it got an identity. You seem to consider evolution as the revolving door of musicians, I consider evolution the sound of the band. One band member leaving may not impact the sound of the band, but deciding to drastically change the sound of the band does. However I don't think Axl actually achieved it. Adding little farts to better doesnt make it industrial. To me Chinese Democracy does sound like a GNR album. That's why I say there's not much evolution.
UYI evolved much more from AFD, not because it had Matt Sorum, but because Axl and Slash drove their sound in uncharted territory

Nobody added "little farts" to the music. It's very clear what your direction and agenda is here.

I personally think Chinese Democracy was an evolution from the UYIs much like they were from Appetite.

I have no Agenda, but saying I do is a good way to not add anything to the conversation.  I love better. But I would rather listen to the Demos and the live performances than the song on the album, those do not have those unnecessary little farts that sound bad on my very good audio technica headphones.

How am I supposed to take you seriously when you describe the music as having "little farts" added?

Laughable.

Because that's the most accurate description of what those effects sound like. LIke little air explosions piercing through my headphones. Little air explosions= little farts. Im not saying Axl farted on the album.

[Wooody]

For myself, to be a evolution of music, there would have to be a continuum of musicians in the band.....  With guns there is only one member who has continuously been in the line up..   So to call the albums a evolution is wrong.  They are just different.  And to call them a evolution of just Axl, is also wrong.  Because CD is the first guns album he had full power and say on.   Now of the next album came out with the exact same musicians on it as CD and has a different sound, that could be argued as a evolution

It's certainly a stronger argument.

I was trying to say the same thing. You said it better.

Although like I said, I dont think they have to have the exact same musicians? But to change the roster altogether except one, then yeah its completely different. Also, whether anyone likes it or not, some members are more important than others in that distinction.

[EmilyGNR]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

that's where you and me disagree in our point of view. You consider GNR to be GNR when it got the name. I consider GNR to be GNR when it got an identity. You seem to consider evolution as the revolving door of musicians, I consider evolution the sound of the band. One band member leaving may not impact the sound of the band, but deciding to drastically change the sound of the band does. However I don't think Axl actually achieved it. Adding little farts to better doesnt make it industrial. To me Chinese Democracy does sound like a GNR album. That's why I say there's not much evolution.
UYI evolved much more from AFD, not because it had Matt Sorum, but because Axl and Slash drove their sound in uncharted territory

Nobody added "little farts" to the music. It's very clear what your direction and agenda is here.

I personally think Chinese Democracy was an evolution from the UYIs much like they were from Appetite.

I like Chinese.

But to call it a evolution, is a stretch

It is just a different album than that of Appetite or the UYI.   Not a evolution

That is subjective, that is the way you see it but not the way I do.

I see it as a natural progression and evolution from the illusions.

For myself, to be a evolution of music, there would have to be a continuum of musicians in the band.....  With guns there is only one member who has continuously been in the line up..   So to call the albums a evolution is wrong.  They are just different.  And to call them a evolution of just Axl, is also wrong.  Because CD is the first guns album he had full power and say on.   Now of the next album came out with the exact same musicians on it as CD and has a different sound, that could be argued as a evolution

I disagree, there was a member change from AFD to the illusions as well but people don't harp on that anymore- it was a complaint back in the day, many complained about the illusions being unlike Appetite.

I think you are simply using qualifiers and categories that benefit and support your particular views, so I'm not taking them as valid.

I think CD was a natural progression from the UYIs.

[EmilyGNR]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

that's where you and me disagree in our point of view. You consider GNR to be GNR when it got the name. I consider GNR to be GNR when it got an identity. You seem to consider evolution as the revolving door of musicians, I consider evolution the sound of the band. One band member leaving may not impact the sound of the band, but deciding to drastically change the sound of the band does. However I don't think Axl actually achieved it. Adding little farts to better doesnt make it industrial. To me Chinese Democracy does sound like a GNR album. That's why I say there's not much evolution.
UYI evolved much more from AFD, not because it had Matt Sorum, but because Axl and Slash drove their sound in uncharted territory

Nobody added "little farts" to the music. It's very clear what your direction and agenda is here.

I personally think Chinese Democracy was an evolution from the UYIs much like they were from Appetite.

I have no Agenda, but saying I do is a good way to not add anything to the conversation.  I love better. But I would rather listen to the Demos and the live performances than the song on the album, those do not have those unnecessary little farts that sound bad on my very good audio technica headphones.

How am I supposed to take you seriously when you describe the music as having "little farts" added?

Laughable.

Because that's the most accurate description of what those effects sound like. LIke little air explosions piercing through my headphones. Little air explosions= little farts. Im not saying Axl farted on the album.

It's a stupid description and makes this entire conversation stupid.

It's not accurate at all and I have listened to both.

[EmilyGNR]

For myself, to be a evolution of music, there would have to be a continuum of musicians in the band.....  With guns there is only one member who has continuously been in the line up..   So to call the albums a evolution is wrong.  They are just different.  And to call them a evolution of just Axl, is also wrong.  Because CD is the first guns album he had full power and say on.   Now of the next album came out with the exact same musicians on it as CD and has a different sound, that could be argued as a evolution

It's certainly a stronger argument.

I was trying to say the same thing. You said it better.

Although like I said, I dont think they have to have the exact same musicians? But to change the roster altogether except one, then yeah its completely different. Also, whether anyone likes it or not, some members are more important than others in that distinction.

On the Illusions Matt and Dizzy played, they were not on AFD-
If you weren't around back then, people complained about UYIs not being the same as Appetite.

[jarmo]

Did the sound evolve because the people in the band changed, or did the people change because the sound evolved?





/jarmo

[TheBaconman]

For myself, to be a evolution of music, there would have to be a continuum of musicians in the band.....  With guns there is only one member who has continuously been in the line up..   So to call the albums a evolution is wrong.  They are just different.  And to call them a evolution of just Axl, is also wrong.  Because CD is the first guns album he had full power and say on.   Now of the next album came out with the exact same musicians on it as CD and has a different sound, that could be argued as a evolution

It's certainly a stronger argument.

I was trying to say the same thing. You said it better.

Although like I said, I dont think they have to have the exact same musicians? But to change the roster altogether except one, then yeah its completely different. Also, whether anyone likes it or not, some members are more important than others in that distinction.

On the Illusions Matt and Dizzy played, they were not on AFD-
If you weren't around back then, people complained about UYIs not being the same as Appetite.

You are the only one today saying the sound of Guns has evolved.   I am saying it has just changed

It changed from AFD to UYI to CD.   There was no evolution.  Like you said there was different musicians on different albums.

[EmilyGNR]

Did the sound evolve because the people in the band changed, or did the people change because the sound evolved?





/jarmo

I think the sound would have evolved regardless of lineup.

There were a number of people very upset that the UYIs weren't Appetite part two.

[jarmo]

You forgot GN'R going "soft" when they released those acoustic tracks in 1988... 


/jarmo

[Wooody]

For myself, to be a evolution of music, there would have to be a continuum of musicians in the band.....  With guns there is only one member who has continuously been in the line up..   So to call the albums a evolution is wrong.  They are just different.  And to call them a evolution of just Axl, is also wrong.  Because CD is the first guns album he had full power and say on.   Now of the next album came out with the exact same musicians on it as CD and has a different sound, that could be argued as a evolution

It's certainly a stronger argument.

I was trying to say the same thing. You said it better.

Although like I said, I dont think they have to have the exact same musicians? But to change the roster altogether except one, then yeah its completely different. Also, whether anyone likes it or not, some members are more important than others in that distinction.

On the Illusions Matt and Dizzy played, they were not on AFD-
If you weren't around back then, people complained about UYIs not being the same as Appetite.

I was around and do remember, but the people who complaint was a vast minority considering the hit they had with November rain, even Matt Sorum admitted he was wrong to criticize November rain before it came out when he saw how much people liked it.

[EmilyGNR]

For myself, to be a evolution of music, there would have to be a continuum of musicians in the band.....  With guns there is only one member who has continuously been in the line up..   So to call the albums a evolution is wrong.  They are just different.  And to call them a evolution of just Axl, is also wrong.  Because CD is the first guns album he had full power and say on.   Now of the next album came out with the exact same musicians on it as CD and has a different sound, that could be argued as a evolution

It's certainly a stronger argument.

I was trying to say the same thing. You said it better.

Although like I said, I dont think they have to have the exact same musicians? But to change the roster altogether except one, then yeah its completely different. Also, whether anyone likes it or not, some members are more important than others in that distinction.

On the Illusions Matt and Dizzy played, they were not on AFD-
If you weren't around back then, people complained about UYIs not being the same as Appetite.

You are the only one today saying the sound of Guns has evolved.   I am saying it has just changed

It changed from AFD to UYI to CD.   There was no evolution.  Like you said there was different musicians on different albums.

I don't honestly care that I'm the only one saying it, that is how I view it and I'm not interested in merely going with the majority, dead fish go with the flow.

There was a change with every Album, so the lineup evolved and so did the sound.

e?volve
verb
develop gradually, especially from a simple to a more complex form.