Izzy's "demotion"

[EmilyGNR]

My issue with it... is that you guys are so hung up on the name and not the entity..

Same thing with the evolution of "Guns N Roses" ... GNR didn't evolve ... it completely changed.. there's a big difference. It just used the same band name on the concert tickets. Axl... he evolved his sound... the band...they left...and then the band that changed the sound... they left too ! (which is truly unfortunate)


Let me re phrase... I don't have an issue with it, I could care less what a handful of you think about what the "original" band consisted of. I just don't understand why the name of the band seems to be so confusing. It's all moot doe.

You are wrong, Guns N' Roses did Evolve-

e?volve
ēˈv?lv/
verb
1.
develop gradually, especially from a simple to a more complex form.
"the company has evolved into a major chemical manufacturer"
synonyms:   develop, progress, advance

[Virolec]

Decay is also a gradual change, of course... 

[TheBaconman]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

[EmilyGNR]

Decay is also a gradual change, of course... 

And trolling is a form of decayed thinking

[EmilyGNR]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

[Spirit]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

According to Axl himself he thinks of it as "Old Guns" and "Guns".

[EmilyGNR]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

According to Axl himself he thinks of it as "Old Guns" and "Guns".

Right, from the 08 chats

[Spirit]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

According to Axl himself he thinks of it as "Old Guns" and "Guns".

Right, from the 08 chats

Yes, so it seems he thinks there's some divide there.

[EmilyGNR]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

According to Axl himself he thinks of it as "Old Guns" and "Guns".

Right, from the 08 chats

Yes, so it seems he thinks there's some divide there.

I wasn't debating the need to differentiate line ups, I was more remarking on some peoples' (Trolls) tendencies to use the term "new GNR" or "NuGNR" as another way to disrespect the band and demean the lineup and insinuate that it is inferior or not fully GNR.

All my tickets, merch, albums say Guns N' Roses-period.

I generally differentiate between the lineups by using a year, like GNR circa 2011, but that's just me.

[Spirit]

Is Axl disrespecting the old line-up by calling them "Old Guns" then? Just using the same logic the other way around.

For the record, I don't think either Axl or the fans calling the line-ups Old- or New-GNR are doing so in disrespect, it's generally to differantiate between pre- and post-1995 Guns I think.

[EmilyGNR]

Is Axl disrespecting the old line-up by calling them "Old Guns" then? Just using the same logic the other way around.

For the record, I don't think either Axl or the fans calling the line-ups Old- or New-GNR are doing so in disrespect, it's generally to differantiate between pre- and post-1995 Guns I think.

That is totally different and I disagree-not the same logic nor a valid comparison in the least.

If you visit other online forums you can clearly see many trolls and haters labelling the band as "NuGNR" or "Axl's band" as a show of disrespect and an attempt at demeaning newer lineups - it is a common occurrence.

It is GNR, whether some like it or don't, they don't get to decide what GNR is and what it isn't.

[raindogs70]

Izzy was a crucial part of Guns N' Roses for the first 4-5 years, but then it just seemed like he showed disinterest in even being there. He probably should have just left after AFD and just contributed as a songwriter. Duff never stopped working with Izzy so maybe some new GNR songs could come out of them writing with Axl. Whether those songs would ever see the light of day is another story.

[TheBaconman]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

Again

I wasn't talking about the line ups changing.   

Guns lineup has changed from 85-2015...   Yes..  I don't know why you keep bringing this up, as it has nothing to do with what I am talking about

[Wooody]

There is a different between New GNR and NUGNR.

NUGNR comes from the period NUMETAL was in the radio and everyone with a bit of good taste hated it.

NUGNR is derogatory. New GNR is not.

[EmilyGNR]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

Again

I wasn't talking about the line ups changing.   

Guns lineup has changed from 85-2015...   Yes..  I don't know why you keep bringing this up, as it has nothing to do with what I am talking about

You said you believed the evolution began in 95, I disagree and think it has been going on longer.

[TheBaconman]

And there is a difference between talking about how the business structure worked in guns apposed to how the lineups are

I refer to old gnr, as 1995 and prior.  When there was actual full time band members with equal say.  (was!, not all)

I refer to new gnr, as 1995 to present.  After Axl quit, started the business fresh, tried to make everyone employees and gone where the full time band members with equal say..

[EmilyGNR]

There is a different between New GNR and NUGNR.

NUGNR comes from the period NUMETAL was in the radio and everyone with a bit of good taste hated it.

NUGNR is derogatory. New GNR is not.

I find that various disgruntled fans, bitter little haters, and trolls of all kinds actually employ both of those terms to attempt to disparage and discredit the later lineups.

I'm sure some fans don't mean it that way.

It is GNR, my tickets, my Albums, and all my memorabilia says Guns N' Roses- not New or NU.

[Wooody]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

that's where you and me disagree in our point of view. You consider GNR to be GNR when it got the name. I consider GNR to be GNR when it got an identity. You seem to consider evolution as the revolving door of musicians, I consider evolution the sound of the band. One band member leaving may not impact the sound of the band, but deciding to drastically change the sound of the band does. However I don't think Axl actually achieved it. Adding little farts to better doesnt make it industrial. To me Chinese Democracy does sound like a GNR album. That's why I say there's not much evolution.
UYI evolved much more from AFD, not because it had Matt Sorum, but because Axl and Slash drove their sound in uncharted territory

[EmilyGNR]

And there is a difference between talking about how the business structure worked in guns apposed to how the lineups are

I refer to old gnr, as 1995 and prior.  When there was actual full time band members with equal say.  (was!, not all)

I refer to new gnr, as 1995 to present.  After Axl quit, started the business fresh, tried to make everyone employees and gone where the full time band members with equal say..

I don't make the division there and most certainly don't employ your questionable and debatable constraints and descriptions.

[EmilyGNR]

I think there were two evolutions of guns n roses

You have the original one up until 1995

Then you have the version that Axl started over again.  Once he quit the original

No, the original lineup did not last until 1995.

This might come in handy for you
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/history/index.html

Disclaimer: By knowing and acknowledging the actual history of GNR does not in any way mean I dislike,or discredit any member of any lineup.

I wasn't talking about the line-up.

I was talking about the business structure of Guns.

From all accounts is was pretty straight forward up until 1995 (regardless of the lineups)   People came and went

But

It was only in 1995, when Axl quit.  That the evolution began.  Were all full time members were asked to become employees under Axls new GNR

No, I disagree- GNR has been evolving since Tracii and Rob and Ole were replaced by Slash, Duff, and Steven.

It continued when Steven was replaced by Matt, Dizzy was added, and again when Izzy was replaced by Gilby and so on.

There is no such thing as "new GNR" it is GNR.

that's where you and me disagree in our point of view. You consider GNR to be GNR when it got the name. I consider GNR to be GNR when it got an identity. You seem to consider evolution as the revolving door of musicians, I consider evolution the sound of the band. One band member leaving may not impact the sound of the band, but deciding to drastically change the sound of the band does. However I don't think Axl actually achieved it. Adding little farts to better doesnt make it industrial. To me Chinese Democracy does sound like a GNR album. That's why I say there's not much evolution.
UYI evolved much more from AFD, not because it had Matt Sorum, but because Axl and Slash drove their sound in uncharted territory

Nobody added "little farts" to the music. It's very clear what your direction and agenda is here.

I personally think Chinese Democracy was an evolution from the UYIs much like they were from Appetite.