Izzy's "demotion"

[JAEBALL]

Jaeball, they are both at fault...equally in my mind. 

I agree with you.

[EmilyGNR]

I've always gotten a good kick out of the idea that Slash was a bad guy for not wanting to concede any and all control in Guns N Roses., particularly when it came to the guitar parts.

Everybody knows who Axl Rose is right? Nobody here thinks maybe him dissolving their partnership and forcing Slash and Duff to sign contracts to be in Guns N Roses, in hindsight, wasn't a smart move?

I think they were both fools for how they handled those years, and Slash was a real snake int he grass for years , with the help of Perla when playing the press against Axl.

BUT FOR GODS SAKE ONE TIME...

I'd love to read one of you admit that maybe just maybe Axl's power play ruined any chance of them continuing thru their other obstacles. (such as Izzy's departure, and who to replace him).

You can argue till you're blue in the face that Axl was right to do so, more talented, better suited to lead ... but what was the end result?

Why don't you elaborate on how he "forced" them to do that please.

Once Izzy left the partnership, a new agreement was needed to address the voting methods of the partnership.

Previously, any three members could have voted out the fourth member. However, with only three participants in the new partnership, Axl was unwilling to put himself in a situation where Slash and Duff could vote him out 2-1 and steal the band from him.

Axl and Izzy founded the band and wrote the vast majority of the material. With Izzy gone, that left Axl as the only founder and you can't blame him for not being willing to put himself at risk of being voted out by two newer members who would then end up with the name he created.

[LongGoneDay]

I think it?s clear they all fucked up.
Adler certainly made his own bed, but his departure set GN?R?s demise in motion.
Izzy is on record saying the songs didn?t work without him.
Throw on top of that, Izzy not wanting to risk his own sobriety, and Axl becoming a control freak, made it easier for him to walk away.

Music aside, Izzy was also the voice of reason between the two big egos of the band, Slash and Axl.

Maybe there was nothing they could have possibly done to keep Izzy around, but he was the heart and soul of the band, but Slash and Axl?s egos were probably too big to realize it.
I think they were still very capable of making quality music, but GN?R as we had known it was over.

I think the biggest mistake they all made, which many posters here still do today, was not recognizing how instrumental each member was to the success of the band.
Thinking they could replace members, rather than work things out. Once one member was out, it became a domino effect, and made it easier for the next guy to walk away when things got tough.

Axl?s power play was good for Ax?s ego, but a kick in the balls for Slash and Duff, and the future of Guns N? Roses and it?s fans.
Really can?t fathom how he ever thought that was going to work. Maybe he didn?t care.

[D-GenerationX]

I've always gotten a good kick out of the idea that Slash was a bad guy for not wanting to concede any and all control in Guns N Roses., particularly when it came to the guitar parts.

Everybody knows who Axl Rose is right? Nobody here thinks maybe him dissolving their partnership and forcing Slash and Duff to sign contracts to be in Guns N Roses, in hindsight, wasn't a smart move?

I think they were both fools for how they handled those years, and Slash was a real snake int he grass for years , with the help of Perla when playing the press against Axl.

BUT FOR GODS SAKE ONE TIME...

I'd love to read one of you admit that maybe just maybe Axl's power play ruined any chance of them continuing thru their other obstacles. (such as Izzy's departure, and who to replace him).

You can argue till you're blue in the face that Axl was right to do so, more talented, better suited to lead ... but what was the end result?

Well said.

[D-GenerationX]

Jaeball, they are both at fault...equally in my mind. 

70/30, in Axl's favor.

[D-GenerationX]

Axl?s power play was good for Ax?s ego, but a kick in the balls for Slash and Duff, and the future of Guns N? Roses and it?s fans.
Really can?t fathom how he ever thought that was going to work. Maybe he didn?t care.

I think it obvious that he didn't really care.

It was one of those deals where you ask for the moon and the stars.  And if they go for it?  Hey, awesome.

But you have to be prepared for the result they may not go for it, and the fallout could lead all the way to the worst case scenario.  Which, in this case, meant no more band.

I don't know how you argue that Axl didn't also see that and was willing to roll those dice.  Which is not a strong argument for how much he supposedly cared.

And the other guys aren't morons, and they can see that too.  So its not really hard to see their anger when their supposed partner is telling them through his actions how little he thinks of them.

[Wooody]

I think it?s clear they all fucked up.
Adler certainly made his own bed, but his departure set GN?R?s demise in motion.
Izzy is on record saying the songs didn?t work without him.
Throw on top of that, Izzy not wanting to risk his own sobriety, and Axl becoming a control freak, made it easier for him to walk away.

Music aside, Izzy was also the voice of reason between the two big egos of the band, Slash and Axl.

Maybe there was nothing they could have possibly done to keep Izzy around, but he was the heart and soul of the band, but Slash and Axl?s egos were probably too big to realize it.
I think they were still very capable of making quality music, but GN?R as we had known it was over.

I think the biggest mistake they all made, which many posters here still do today, was not recognizing how instrumental each member was to the success of the band.
Thinking they could replace members, rather than work things out. Once one member was out, it became a domino effect, and made it easier for the next guy to walk away when things got tough.

Axl?s power play was good for Ax?s ego, but a kick in the balls for Slash and Duff, and the future of Guns N? Roses and it?s fans.
Really can?t fathom how he ever thought that was going to work. Maybe he didn?t care.

HE must have cared and must've thought it was going to work, if he didnt maybe they would still be together. I do agree that once one member of the band was out, others follow and it became a domino effect. But it might not have happened and it could have still worked out. I don't like Matt Sorum as a person, but I do enjoy what he brought to the table in UYI, I think it clicked and it worked with what Axl and Slash where trying to accomplish.
After all these years, I think they should've tried harder. But there's an ugly side to everything, some people idolize Izzy a bit too much in my book, maybe because they feel related to his persona, but I always wondered about his fear of GNR doing arenas and being big, it was irrational, he should've just rolled with it, and in my opinion, it was just that, he was scared of the attention. I also don't understand his lack of interest in playing and creating songs, he was good at it, yet him being a guitar player and not touching your guitar in over a year?  I play the guitar, I don't ever go 1 week without playing it. He had the opportunity to play for a living and he walked away from it, that shows lack of passion in my opinion.

[LongGoneDay]

I think it?s clear they all fucked up.
Adler certainly made his own bed, but his departure set GN?R?s demise in motion.
Izzy is on record saying the songs didn?t work without him.
Throw on top of that, Izzy not wanting to risk his own sobriety, and Axl becoming a control freak, made it easier for him to walk away.

Music aside, Izzy was also the voice of reason between the two big egos of the band, Slash and Axl.

Maybe there was nothing they could have possibly done to keep Izzy around, but he was the heart and soul of the band, but Slash and Axl?s egos were probably too big to realize it.
I think they were still very capable of making quality music, but GN?R as we had known it was over.

I think the biggest mistake they all made, which many posters here still do today, was not recognizing how instrumental each member was to the success of the band.
Thinking they could replace members, rather than work things out. Once one member was out, it became a domino effect, and made it easier for the next guy to walk away when things got tough.

Axl?s power play was good for Ax?s ego, but a kick in the balls for Slash and Duff, and the future of Guns N? Roses and it?s fans.
Really can?t fathom how he ever thought that was going to work. Maybe he didn?t care.

HE must have cared and must've thought it was going to work, if he didnt maybe they would still be together. I do agree that once one member of the band was out, others follow and it became a domino effect. But it might not have happened and it could have still worked out. I don't like Matt Sorum as a person, but I do enjoy what he brought to the table in UYI, I think it clicked and it worked with what Axl and Slash where trying to accomplish.
After all these years, I think they should've tried harder. But there's an ugly side to everything, some people idolize Izzy a bit too much in my book, maybe because they feel related to his persona, but I always wondered about his fear of GNR doing arenas and being big, it was irrational, he should've just rolled with it, and in my opinion, it was just that, he was scared of the attention. I also don't understand his lack of interest in playing and creating songs, he was good at it, yet him being a guitar player and not touching your guitar in over a year?  I play the guitar, I don't ever go 1 week without playing it. He had the opportunity to play for a living and he walked away from it, that shows lack of passion in my opinion.

I think if Axl really cared, he was incredibly naive to think once equal shareholders would be in love with the idea of suddenly becoming his employees.
As much of a bummer as it is, Izzy putting his sobriety/sanity ahead of making songs for my personal enjoyment was probably the right decision.

Adler demoed the majority of the Illusions, but I appreciate what Matt brought to the table as well.

I don?t fault the decisions they all made. They were still relatively young, and put in situations I can?t relate to.
Easy to play Monday morning QB, but when discussing the demise of GN?R, I think it boils down to underestimating the chemistry they had as a band.

As they have all figured out the hard way since, it doesn?t happen often.

[D-GenerationX]

I think if Axl really cared, he was incredibly naive to think once equal shareholders would be in love with the idea of suddenly becoming his employees.

It was totally preposterous.  The response from both of them wasn't going to be anything but "fuck that".

The only mystery is what follows that.  Is it "fuck that...and I don't want to hear this again" or "fuck that...and the fact that you think so little of me to even suggest it means I have to move on".

Whatever dreams Axl had about being the Supreme Commander have to be weighed against possibly losing it all.  To most, they would say the band imploding is not something they even want to chance.  Axl did not see things that way.  Thus, he was willing to try for the role of Supreme Commander even if it meant it all went up in flames around him.

Cue it up :

Then it all crashes down
And you break your crown
You point your finger
But there's no one around

You want one thing
That's to play the king
But castle's crumbled
And you're left with just a name

Where's your crown, King Nothing?

[14 Yrs Of Silence]

All has said that he felt he needed to take ownership of the name because of the shape that Slash and Duff were in.  I'm sure he was getting advice as well.  I don't blame him.  In a perfect word, I don't think Axl would have felt compelled to pull that move.

[jarmo]

All has said that he felt he needed to take ownership of the name because of the shape that Slash and Duff were in.  I'm sure he was getting advice as well.  I don't blame him.  In a perfect word, I don't think Axl would have felt compelled to pull that move.

Yeah.
Slash was dead for a moment in 1992, and Duff wasn't exactly the poster boy for healthy living until 1994...




/jarmo

[rebelhipi]

All has said that he felt he needed to take ownership of the name because of the shape that Slash and Duff were in.  I'm sure he was getting advice as well.  I don't blame him.  In a perfect word, I don't think Axl would have felt compelled to pull that move.

Yeah.
Slash was dead for a moment in 1992, and Duff wasn't exactly the poster boy for healthy living until 1994...




/jarmo

Yes i would probably done the same thing in Axls position.

Slash just overdosed on heroin, Duff is 2 months far of drinking himself to death. Axl was the leader in that period anyways.


Anyway. the aftermath is that we got a ''new'' Gnr some years later, and im grateful of it. I still think Gnr was in better than ever form few years ago.

[sky dog]

It wasn't just Slash and Duff being whacked out of their minds.......the man spoke on this....

"When Guns renegotiated our contract with Geffen I had the bit about the name added in as protection for myself as I had come up with the name and then originally started the band with it. It had more to do with management than the band as our then manager was always tryin? to convince someone they should fire me. As I had stopped speaking with him he sensed his days were numbered and was bending any ear he could along with attempting to sell our renegotiation out for a personal payday from Geffen.

It was added to the contract and everyone signed off on it. It wasn?t hidden in fine print etc as you had to initial the section verifying you had acknowledged it.

Now at that time I didn?t know or think about brand names or corporate value etc. All I knew is that I came in with the name and from day one everyone had agreed to it being mine should we break up and now it was in writing."

[D-GenerationX]

Now at that time I didn?t know or think about brand names or corporate value etc. All I knew is that I came in with the name and from day one everyone had agreed to it being mine should we break up and now it was in writing."

But wasn't that pie in the sky thing he tried to get them to sign in 1995 going to accomplish anything but breaking the band up?

Was there even a 1% they were going to go for it?

What I'm getting at is that even if Axl had that put in there to protect himself in case others supposedly were to conspire against them, didn't he, in essence, flip the script?

The protection he put in for himself is now to his benefit, even with him now being the aggressor.

[jarmo]

So you're saying that because he wanted to protect himself, he shouldn't have because protecting himself was basically an attack on the others.
Isn't that like saying that by putting an alarm in your house, you're annoying the potential burglars? 


Edited to add: Well, you could ask yourself whether or not any of this would've happened if everything was awesome at the time? If they hadn't tried to fire Axl back in 1988 for example....



/jarmo

[TheBaconman]

I actually think slash and duff new exactly what they were signing.   I believe Axl when he says everyone agreed that he came in with the name and it was his to take with th him if the band were to ever break up

What I don't think slash or duff were expecting.  Was for Axl to quit the band/partnership.  And start over fresh with the name guns n roses and try and put both slash and duff u set a contract.   I am pretty sure that was a surprise to those guys.

And really that move has nothing to do about protecting Axl or protecting the name guns n roses.  It comes across as a true power play.  Where he wanted full control and wanted to be the boss

[CherryGarcia]

Edited to add: Well, you could ask yourself whether or not any of this would've happened if everything was awesome at the time? If they hadn't tried to fire Axl back in 1988 for example....

/jarmo

But would they have tried to fire Axl in 1988 if he didn't have a problem with late starts or even sometimes not showing up for shows?

Also, while the contract was signed in 1992, Axl didn't activate the "name clause" until August 1995, by which point Duff was totally clean and sober and healthy, and Slash was occasionally dabbling but not addicted as he had been.

[D-GenerationX]

I actually think slash and duff new exactly what they were signing.   I believe Axl when he says everyone agreed that he came in with the name and it was his to take with th him if the band were to ever break up

What I don't think slash or duff were expecting.  Was for Axl to quit the band/partnership.  And start over fresh with the name guns n roses and try and put both slash and duff u set a contract.   I am pretty sure that was a surprise to those guys.

And really that move has nothing to do about protecting Axl or protecting the name guns n roses.  It comes across as a true power play.  Where he wanted full control and wanted to be the boss

Totally agree.

I have long thought that they didn't think there was much of a Guns N' Roses without them anyway.

[D-GenerationX]

Also, while the contract was signed in 1992, Axl didn't activate the "name clause" until August 1995, by which point Duff was totally clean and sober and healthy, and Slash was occasionally dabbling but not addicted as he had been.

Yeah, let's not get too carried away with how this was all because Axl was the only sober one.

It was a problem, sure.  But let's keep it in perspective.

[EmilyGNR]

I've always gotten a good kick out of the idea that Slash was a bad guy for not wanting to concede any and all control in Guns N Roses., particularly when it came to the guitar parts.

Everybody knows who Axl Rose is right? Nobody here thinks maybe him dissolving their partnership and forcing Slash and Duff to sign contracts to be in Guns N Roses, in hindsight, wasn't a smart move?

I think they were both fools for how they handled those years, and Slash was a real snake int he grass for years , with the help of Perla when playing the press against Axl.

BUT FOR GODS SAKE ONE TIME...

I'd love to read one of you admit that maybe just maybe Axl's power play ruined any chance of them continuing thru their other obstacles. (such as Izzy's departure, and who to replace him).

You can argue till you're blue in the face that Axl was right to do so, more talented, better suited to lead ... but what was the end result?

Well said.

No, it wasn't well said.

Why don't both of you get together and figure out a way he "forced" them to do this.