Izzy's "demotion"

[CherryGarcia]

I'm pretty neutral when it comes to the whole "GN'R breakup" thing...Which is why neither side really likes me. But I do try to be 'fair and balanced' about it.
There's one side to it that no one ever really talks about: Izzy's 'demotion', musically, in the band.

Go read the liner notes to AFD. On every track, the credits are as such:

Axl - Vocals
Slash - Lead and Rhythm Guitar
Izzy - Rhythm and Lead Guitar
Duff - Bass
Steven - Drums

On AFD, and live in this era (1985-1989), this is utterly tangible - You can hear Izzy and Slash trading lead parts. While Izzy was primarily the band's rhythm guitarist, the band had, in effect, two equal lead guitarists who would play off eachother (similar to the way Keith Richards and Ron Wood do it in the Stones). This dual guitar assault, with Izzy's Stonesy riffage and Slash's bluesy, Aerosmith licks, was a big part of their sound, even on Lies.

We get to the Illusion records, and suddenly, there's a subtle, but powerful change:

Axl - Vocals, piano
Slash - Lead and Rhythm Guitar
Izzy - Rhythm Guitar
Duff - Bass
Matt- Drums
Dizzy - Keyboard, organ

On these records, you can barely hear Izzy, for one, and his role is now solely that of rhythm guitarist. Slash's bluesy tone dominates the records, and the riff interplay is lost on most tracks. This change is said to have come from Izzy not contributing to the recording or mixing process....But wait.

Izzy was there for the live shows, and yet, on most 1991 UYI shows, you can barely hear him.

Okay, so, maybe Izzy was wasted....

But enter Gilby. Gilby was not, by any account, a drug addict. And he was a full, contributing member of the band. Yet, listen to every other UYI live bootleg. You can hear Gilby, but very low in the mix compared to Slash.

And again, on TSI, you have:

Axl - Vocals, piano
Slash - Lead and Rhythm Guitar
Gilby- Rhythm Guitar
Duff - Bass
Matt- Drums
Dizzy - Keyboard, organ

Now, we know Gilby was there for TSI's recording/mixing sessions, yet, again the sound of the record is dominated by Slash's guitar.

Okay, you might say, "It's just a cover album, mostly recorded by the band before Gilby entered..." Okay, fair point perhaps.

But then you get to the first Snakepit album, an album which Slash and Gilby composed equally, which wasn't supposed to be a Slash solo album but was considered an outlet for the members of Guns at the time to get stuff out musically. The band wasn't even going to be called "Slash's Snakepit", just "Snakepit", until it was found the name was already trademarked by another band. But, we get to that record and we see:

Eric Dover- Vocals
Slash - Lead and Rhythm Guitar
Gilby- Rhythm Guitar
Mike Inez- Bass
Matt- Drums
Dizzy - Keyboard, organ

So, here's an album of original material which Gilby helped to create - and again, Slash is sole lead guitar player. And has been on every single record since. The only album in which he shared guitar duties equally with another guitarist, is considered the best album he ever took part in.

The only time post-AFD where Slash was put into a position where he had to share lead spots with another guitarist was on the Sympathy for the Devil cover, and we know how that played with him.

People say "Axl was a control freak", and there are many points to be made which can point to that. But could we not also say Slash was a bit of a control freak himself? Wanting the lead guitar post solely for himself, even when GN'R was originally worked as a band with two lead guitarists and two rhythm guitarists, in practice if not in membership? As stated before, on AFD and Lies, Slash and Izzy shared lead and rhythm duties and trade them off. Post Illusions? Not so much, and not all in Slash's post GN'R career....

[LongGoneDay]

Interesting, but I think it?s worth noting that Izzy isn?t even the lead guitarist in his own band.
Him leaving spelled the end of their reign, though. Hindsight is 20-20, but it?s pretty clear now they should have made a more concerted effort in keeping him on board.
He was the glue. Who knows if there is anything they could have done differently to change his mind.

[TheBaconman]

I agree with what you said here

Why would I should allow any of this?   Was he just wasted so much?  And then once he sobered up, instead of changing this in a band that he equally owned   He just gave up and quit. 

It no secret that slash wanted the sound of guns to sound a lot like ac/dc.  Where one lead guitar is very dominate

[jarmo]

Maybe the reason is that Izzy didn't really play that much on the UYI albums? As far as I recall, it was stated that Izzy wasn't all that interested in recording his parts again when asked... For example.




/jarmo

[GeorgeSteele]

Good observations, nice work on that.  Comparing AFD, UYI and CD, while all 3 very different albums, a characteristic shared by AFD and CD is that 'wall of guitar' effect, while the guitars on UYI sound much more thin (to me at least), as there was clearly an effort to isolate and shine a spotlight on Slash's guitar playing (which is not to be critical of him, he's incredible on UYI), apparently at Izzy's expense.  

[EmilyGNR]

On the Illusion albums, Izzy Stradlin is credited with rhythm guitar while you're credited with lead and rhythm. How does that break down on any given track?

Slash-It's simple. Izzy, even on the songs he wrote, put on a very bare-bones guitar part -- just basic chords. And sometimes, very rarely, a single-note melody. He has one guitar solo on Illusion I -- at the beginning of "Back Off Bitch."

You also solo on "Back Off Bitch."

Slash-Yeah, I play the main solo. I used to play this high-end trill thing for the first solo, but I could never play it consistently. So I just took it off altogether and let Izzy put a lead on, which is really a lot cooler.

 Source is a Guitar World  interview from '92

[CherryGarcia]

On the Illusion albums, Izzy Stradlin is credited with rhythm guitar while you're credited with lead and rhythm. How does that break down on any given track?

Slash-It's simple. Izzy, even on the songs he wrote, put on a very bare-bones guitar part -- just basic chords. And sometimes, very rarely, a single-note melody. He has one guitar solo on Illusion I -- at the beginning of "Back Off Bitch."

You also solo on "Back Off Bitch."

Slash-Yeah, I play the main solo. I used to play this high-end trill thing for the first solo, but I could never play it consistently. So I just took it off altogether and let Izzy put a lead on, which is really a lot cooler.

 Source is a Guitar World  interview from '92

That still doesn't address the main point of my OP.
Izzy was clean after 1989 and yet his amped was turned WAAAY down live, so that only Slash's guitar is audible.
Gilby, who had no substance abuse issues, again, had his amp turned WAAAY down live, and is only on Rhythm Guitar on TSI.
Slash plays lead and rhythm guitar, while Gilby only plays rhythm, on the first Snakepit record - a record Gilby helped to compose!
On all subsequent albums of his own, Slash has never shared guitar duties with anyone. The only exceptions to this in his career are AFD and the Sympathy for the Devil cover.

[gnredwing]

Can tell we really need some relevant news sooner then later!

[EmilyGNR]

On the Illusion albums, Izzy Stradlin is credited with rhythm guitar while you're credited with lead and rhythm. How does that break down on any given track?

Slash-It's simple. Izzy, even on the songs he wrote, put on a very bare-bones guitar part -- just basic chords. And sometimes, very rarely, a single-note melody. He has one guitar solo on Illusion I -- at the beginning of "Back Off Bitch."

You also solo on "Back Off Bitch."

Slash-Yeah, I play the main solo. I used to play this high-end trill thing for the first solo, but I could never play it consistently. So I just took it off altogether and let Izzy put a lead on, which is really a lot cooler.

 Source is a Guitar World  interview from '92

That still doesn't address the main point of my OP.
Izzy was clean after 1989 and yet his amped was turned WAAAY down live, so that only Slash's guitar is audible.
Gilby, who had no substance abuse issues, again, had his amp turned WAAAY down live, and is only on Rhythm Guitar on TSI.
Slash plays lead and rhythm guitar, while Gilby only plays rhythm, on the first Snakepit record - a record Gilby helped to compose!
On all subsequent albums of his own, Slash has never shared guitar duties with anyone. The only exceptions to this in his career are AFD and the Sympathy for the Devil cover.

Also these excerpts- I'm not debating that Slash was a bit of a control freak when it came to guitars-he has spoken disparagingly about Izzy,Paul, and didn't want Zakk in the band either.

Slash: I really looked forward to playing with him again and really hoped that he had changed. I booked a place before the first gigs in Tel Aviv to rehearse. But Izzy thought it was unnecessary, that it was just wasted time. He hadn't changed one bit and therefore the gigs turned out the way they did [Metal Zone, December 1993]

Slash: It was my idea to call Izzy; I thought it would be interesting. I didn't know he hadn't picked up his guitar in the last fucking year!

Slash talking about Izzy replacing Gilby: "Fuck it," Axl said. "Let's call Izzy." I was surprised and happy to hear that Izzy went for it (...). Izzy showed up...with dreadlocks...and hadn't practised one song. So we did what we could [Bozza, Anthony, & Slash (2007). Slash. Harper Entertainment: New York, p.369-370]

And general comments about Izzy's playing style and contributions:

Gilby: [...] Nobody really seemed to know what Izzy played. I would perform something, and Slash would say, "I thought you knew this tune," and I'd argue that I did. And then he'd say "No, you don't You are playing my part!" And then we'd realize that you couldn't really hear Izzy's part on some of the songs. So the we had to try to reconstruct his parts the best we could [Guitar World, November 1992]

Slash talking about The Spaghetti Incident?: I love recording like this. During Appetite..., Lies and Use Your... I had to put up with Izzy the whole time. I never liked playing with him. It was wonderful to escape him on this record. It sounds tighter and so much cooler than anything we've done before. I always got irritated over Izzy's way of playing. It didn't sound right. Before "Spaghetti", we erased his guitar and Gilby put on a new one. It sounded perfect! [Okej, November? 1993]

Slash: Izzy basically left while we were recording the "...Illusion" records. He's not on half of those records. He hardly even played on his own songs! [Kerrang! January 1994]

Slash: I had to double guitars up for him on most of [Illusions]. He didn't play very much [Guns N' Roses: Is It All Over? Does Anyone Care? Metal Hammer November 1995]

[jarmo]

That still doesn't address the main point of my OP.
Izzy was clean after 1989 and yet his amped was turned WAAAY down live, so that only Slash's guitar is audible.
Gilby, who had no substance abuse issues, again, had his amp turned WAAAY down live, and is only on Rhythm Guitar on TSI.
Slash plays lead and rhythm guitar, while Gilby only plays rhythm, on the first Snakepit record - a record Gilby helped to compose!
On all subsequent albums of his own, Slash has never shared guitar duties with anyone. The only exceptions to this in his career are AFD and the Sympathy for the Devil cover.

Nobody seems to have an answer for it.

Other than offer one possible reason for why the change happened from one album to the other with Izzy...
So when Gilby replaced him, he took over the same role. Rhythm guitar...



/jarmo

[sky dog]

I'm going with Slash is a control freak much like Ax.....my way or the highway....don't think that will ever change at this point so good luck to you reunionists. 

[D-GenerationX]

Gilby: [...] Nobody really seemed to know what Izzy played. I would perform something, and Slash would say, "I thought you knew this tune," and I'd argue that I did. And then he'd say "No, you don't You are playing my part!" And then we'd realize that you couldn't really hear Izzy's part on some of the songs. So the we had to try to reconstruct his parts the best we could [Guitar World, November 1992]

Hahaha.  I'd never heard this one.

I never really believed all that business about turning him down, until I heard 'Rocket Queen' on the live album.

[EmilyGNR]

Gilby: [...] Nobody really seemed to know what Izzy played. I would perform something, and Slash would say, "I thought you knew this tune," and I'd argue that I did. And then he'd say "No, you don't You are playing my part!" And then we'd realize that you couldn't really hear Izzy's part on some of the songs. So the we had to try to reconstruct his parts the best we could [Guitar World, November 1992]

Hahaha.  I'd never heard this one.

I never really believed all that business about turning him down, until I heard 'Rocket Queen' on the live album.

Look at the different contrast of statements here:

Axl: You know, I read something somewhere. Someone was writing an article about my other friends. And they wrote this thing about how 'in the old days, you know, there were lots of problems and technical errors of the band and Izzy couldn't hear himself' [laughing] The reason that Izzy couldn't hear himself - this isn't being mean - is our roadies would stand behind Izzy's amp, 'cause Izzy would be so whacked out of his mind that he would basically be playing a different song in the wrong key, and the only way we could do the songs was that every time he would go to him amps, he would turn his amps up and turn around to the crowd. When he would turn around to the crowd the roadie would reach around and turn his amps back down so that we could play the song. That worked especially well in Tel Aviv [laughter] Just a full tippit there for your Trivia Pursuit [Onstage Boston, December 2002]

This is the only quote I have from Izzy regarding Tel Aviv and the other 4 dates in 1993:

Izzy: Part of the reason [for doing these five shows] was that I had time off in Indiana, I wasn't really doing anything important, just working on bikes, motorcycles, and, yeah, "maybe it's fun". They played Turkey, they played Greece, they played Israel, so maybe it's cool to go see those places since I've never been there. And I knew all the music so it wasn't like I had to study or practise much, just take a guitar and go over. But the main reason was that for a year and a half since I left them they had never paid me all the money that I was owed, because there was a dispute about what was. So I told them, "look, tell your people to call my people and write up some paperwork and pay me my fucking money" [Interview with Izzy in Japan, September 22, 1993]

Funny how he claims he knew the songs well

It obviously was still a problem here-
 
How did it feel to play four or five GN?R songs every night? Did you have to learn some of them again?

Izzy: ?Yes I had forgotten them almost completely. I had to learn to play them again.?

Which song was the hardest?

Izzy: "Nightrain.? I kept forgetting the part in the middle, I don?t know why, after all I wrote it!"

 http://chinese-democracy.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/exclusive-interview-with-izzy-stradlin.html?m=1

[sky dog]

Emily, I think they are all slightly off in their own way....funny shit.

[JAEBALL]

Emily, I think they are all slightly off in their own way....funny shit.

Ain't that the freakin truth.... other than Post 94' Duff...I think it's safe to say they all have some screws loose! 

[Wooody]

I would argue that in part, Izzy's ''demotion'' on UYI also came because of the structure of the songs demanded more of a rhythm player and not another lead. I can't imagine estranged with another guitarplayer playing lead in there, it would sound intrusive. But its an Axl song, a piano based song, its just different. And there where more axl songs on UYI than in AFD.
Not surprisingly, Back off Bitch is one of the tracks that sounds more like AFD, and his input on that one is more like his input on the AFD songs.

[sky dog]

Back Off Bitch was written during the AFD sessions.

[D-GenerationX]

Back Off Bitch was written during the AFD sessions.

Even before that, I thought.

[rebelhipi]

Back Off Bitch was written during the AFD sessions.

Even before that, I thought.

I think Axls pre LA days. Written with Paul Tobias

[jarmo]

I would argue that in part, Izzy's ''demotion'' on UYI also came because of the structure of the songs demanded more of a rhythm player and not another lead. I can't imagine estranged with another guitarplayer playing lead in there, it would sound intrusive. But its an Axl song, a piano based song, its just different. And there where more axl songs on UYI than in AFD.
Not surprisingly, Back off Bitch is one of the tracks that sounds more like AFD, and his input on that one is more like his input on the AFD songs.

Interesting point. So you're saying the reason Izzy played less on those albums is because of the songs themselves. And therefore Gilby, just filled his shoes, and never really had a chance to be more than a rhythm player alongside Slash.

Do you think the rest was a result of that? Like "These songs don't need my parts so why bother?" when the other guys asked him to redo something for example?
 


/jarmo