The Flashback: Sympathy for the Devil

[D-GenerationX]

Anyway, do you feel like if GN'R had stayed together, they would've tried making a more modern album in the 200s after making those "Slash albums" in the 1990s? Or just continue on the same path....

I suspect we'd have wound up with an album that sounded more in line with the GNR sound we knew and loved.

I'm not going as far as to say it was going to be AFD II or UYI III.  But I do feel pretty confident saying there would not be anything like 'Rhiad & The Bedouins' on there either.

I also pretty strongly suspect it would have come out before November 2008.

[D-GenerationX]

No, I asked you if it was fair to do that on one track considering Axl wanted two guitars.
Also, since there was so much animosity regarding the situation, do you think it would've gotten better if Slash was the sole guitar player on the track?
That was my whole point.

I really struggle to see how things could have gone worse. 

What the hell is worse than a total band implosion and no new album for 15 years?  Getting involved in a land war in Asia?

After the Paul debacle, Slash bounced.  Slash may still have wound up bouncing down the line, but there likely would have been more a good faith effort to do a new album with the line-up at the time if Paul was not forced into the mix as he was.

[jarmo]

I suspect we'd have wound up with an album that sounded more in line with the GNR sound we knew and loved.

I'm not going as far as to say it was going to be AFD II or UYI III.  But I do feel pretty confident saying there would not be anything like 'Rhiad & The Bedouins' on there either.

I also pretty strongly suspect it would have come out before November 2008.

I don't know if you understood what I was talking about. I used the fact that Slash released two Snakepit albums before his other band started as a hypothetical scenario where GN'R would've released two albums that were based on Slash's ideas and whether or not that would've been followed by a more modern sounding album like the one he did with VR...

Regarding your dig at GN'R, I strongly suspect you would've still had something to complain about.  

I really struggle to see how things could have gone worse. 

What the hell is worse than a total band implosion and no new album for 15 years?  Getting involved in a land war in Asia?

After the Paul debacle, Slash bounced.  Slash may still have wound up bouncing down the line, but there likely would have been more a good faith effort to do a new album with the line-up at the time if Paul was not forced into the mix as he was.

Well, maybe no soundtrack song. Axl gets more annoyed by Slash, Slash leaves to go do Snakepit anyway. Comes back and quits.
Like you said, it might have happened anyway.... So there really isn't a strong case for "it couldn't get worse" now is there?

Considering how frustrated they were in VR looking for a singer, imagine that same situation in 1995 looking for a rhythm guitar player they could agree on.
They were still disagreeing about a lot of stuff. I think before they could've agreed on something, Slash would've gone to make a second Snakepit album since that was his band and he was calling all the shots.



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

I don't know if you understood what I was talking about. I used the fact that Slash released two Snakepit albums before his other band started as a hypothetical scenario where GN'R would've released two albums that were based on Slash's ideas and whether or not that would've been followed by a more modern sounding album like the one he did with VR...

This supposes that these 2 GNR albums would be the same half ass products that Snakepit were.  I don't believe that. 

I sure don't believe Axl would just sit in the back and let Slash run the show and just sing whatever pedestrian rock songs were given to him.

I have to think Axl would be involved in the creative process and we would have been looking at something better than those Snakepit albums.

I think the band would have evolved naturally along the way by the time that 3rd hypothetical album came along.

[D-GenerationX]

Considering how frustrated they were in VR looking for a singer, imagine that same situation in 1995 looking for a rhythm guitar player they could agree on.
They were still disagreeing about a lot of stuff. I think before they could've agreed on something, Slash would've gone to make a second Snakepit album since that was his band and he was calling all the shots.

Maybe.

I just don't think he was as about calling the shots himself as much as he was anti-inactivity and lack of professionalism he was getting from Axl.

He says that straight up in his book.  I know we are supposed to cast suspicious glances at certain passages in that book, as is our duty as loyal fans.  But given the way he has remained busy since leaving GNR, as well as not continuing with singers that showed themselves to be either uncommitted or unprofessional, his stance in that book seems accurate to me.

[sandman]

Slash is the greatest guitar player Axl has ever worked with. When you consider what GnR is, what they represent, and the core of their sound throughout their history, Slash is perfect.

had the band stayed together, Axl would have taken slash's blues based riffs and turned them into something magical. Axl would have presented his ideas for songs to Slash, and challenged him to come up with something that fits. Axl would have continued to lead the way in evolving GnR's sound (as he did with UYI and CD) by including other influences.

it's so easy to sit here criticize slash's songs, but i happen to think throughout his career he has done some amazing stuff. and Axl would have shaped alot of it into better songs. Axl brings out the best of Slash - SCOM riff being the perfect example. who knows what would have happened if Slash gave his ideas to Axl instead of other band members working for Slash (or Scott Weiand). could have had the next classic GnR song that lives on forever. sad to say, but there are no CD songs that generations will be listening to for years to come.    

so essentially, had the band stayed together, GnR would have solidified themselves as the Rolling Stones/Led Zeppelin of my generation. They would have continued on as one of the biggest and greatest bands of all time.

[jarmo]

This supposes that these 2 GNR albums would be the same half ass products that Snakepit were.  I don't believe that. 

I sure don't believe Axl would just sit in the back and let Slash run the show and just sing whatever pedestrian rock songs were given to him.

I have to think Axl would be involved in the creative process and we would have been looking at something better than those Snakepit albums.

I think the band would have evolved naturally along the way by the time that 3rd hypothetical album came along.

The whole hypothesis was based on Axl giving in to Slash's ideas and going along for the sake of keeping him in the band and somewhat happy.
There'd be no epic songs, obviously.

"I was specifically told no lyrics, no melodies, no changes to anything and to sing what I was told or fuck off." - Axl

I just don't think he was as about calling the shots himself as much as he was anti-inactivity and lack of professionalism he was getting from Axl.

You don't? His other band featuring a front man with his own ideas, imploded as well.

I don't disagree with him wanting to work, to do something. But there were things going on in GN'R and he wasn't into it. So in a way, as long as he could call the shots, he'd do it. When it was Axl's ideas, it wasn't as interesting.

it's so easy to sit here criticize slash's songs, but i happen to think throughout his career he has done some amazing stuff. and Axl would have shaped alot of it into better songs. Axl brings out the best of Slash -

Nobody's debating that.
But it seems like that wasn't how it was playing out in the mid-90s.



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

It's come up a few times now, so I have to ask :

Did any of you really dig the Snakepit stuff?  More specifically, did you continue to listen to it after the initial releases?

I'll be honest, I never did.  I was so unimpressed, that first album actually convinced me that Slash would never leave GNR if that was all he could swing.

The VR stuff, I liked, for the most part.  Slash's solo albums have some good stuff.  I just never got into Snakepit.

[JAEBALL]

It's come up a few times now, so I have to ask :

Did any of you really dig the Snakepit stuff?  More specifically, did you continue to listen to it after the initial releases?

I'll be honest, I never did.  I was so unimpressed, that first album actually convinced me that Slash would never leave GNR if that was all he could swing.

The VR stuff, I liked, for the most part.  Slash's solo albums have some good stuff.  I just never got into Snakepit.

I'm in a similar boat. Didn't care for Snakepit. LOVE Velvet Revolver (more so Contraband). Really enjoy the Conspirators. The song Anastasia just sounds like the perfect GNR track.

[D-GenerationX]

Yeah, I find myself listening to Slash tracks and figuring out what songs would work with Axl singing.

I feel like a child of divorce.

[sofine11]

When Axl said that he was basically told to "Sing what we tell you and shut up", was he referring to the Snakepit demos?  As in, did Slash basically tell him these are the tracks and I'm not changing a damn thing, now put words to them...or don't?

[sofine11]

It's come up a few times now, so I have to ask :

Did any of you really dig the Snakepit stuff?  More specifically, did you continue to listen to it after the initial releases?

I'll be honest, I never did.  I was so unimpressed, that first album actually convinced me that Slash would never leave GNR if that was all he could swing.

The VR stuff, I liked, for the most part.  Slash's solo albums have some good stuff.  I just never got into Snakepit.

Eric Dover's vocals are absolute dog shit in my opinion, and some of the lyrics on that album are laughable "Aren't you naked without pride? LET ME TURN YOU OOOONNN!!!" Gimme a fuckin' break. Sounds like something you'd expect from Ratt in 1984.

VR was a definite improvement, but I rarely go back and listen to that.  Dude shoulda hung out, swallowed his pride, and let Axl mess with his '94 demos.

[D-GenerationX]

That's what I always said about Snakepit.

It was dogshit for a genre that, frankly, is mostly dogshit.  Yet one I liked!! 

But I even I rolled my eyes.  And I'm a guy that could go chapter and verse on Twisted Sister tunes.

[sofine11]

That's what I always said about Snakepit.

It was dogshit for a genre that, frankly, is mostly dogshit.  Yet one I liked!! 

But I even I rolled my eyes.  And I'm a guy that could go chapter and verse on Twisted Sister tunes.

Looking at it in retrospect, it seems like the first Snakepit album was just as much done as an F-You to Axl as much as it was an "artist release" for Slash.  Like, "You're not gonna use them? Fine.  I'll put them out anyway!" No wonder things went so far south in '95.  After a move like that, you can almost see why Axl freaked and did those legal gymnastics with the GNR name that effectively turned Slash & Duff into employees on December 31, 1995....Almost. 

Seems like there was a lot of "tit for tat" going on with these two in the mid-90s, that ultimately just spiraled out of control until the inevitable happened. Difference is, Axl stayed more or less quiet in the media, whereas Slash had no quelms venting on MTV.

[CherryGarcia]

never heard the Unplugged story...is it myth or did it actually happen? quotes?

"We do what we do the best that anybody does. Let's just go out and do a club tour, a theatre tour, and fucking get back down to where we have some validity with an audience that we can relate to. But Axl was all fucking.. he wants to be on MTV, he wants to do Unplugged, he wants to be this, he wants to be that. So we didn't see eye to eye, and that's where a lot of that bullshit got started, and of course it was blown out of all proportion in the press" - Slash, 11/95

[CherryGarcia]

It's come up a few times now, so I have to ask :

Did any of you really dig the Snakepit stuff?  More specifically, did you continue to listen to it after the initial releases?

I'll be honest, I never did.  I was so unimpressed, that first album actually convinced me that Slash would never leave GNR if that was all he could swing.

The VR stuff, I liked, for the most part.  Slash's solo albums have some good stuff.  I just never got into Snakepit.

I think there's a few really strong tracks on the first Snakepit, yes, and I think the second Snakepit record is the best thing Slash has done post GN'R. I don't think Slash does well with the 'modern rock' sound and have never liked Scott Weiland's voice, so have never been into VR. Slash, for me, is at his best when he's doing bluesy Aerosmith style rock. I can honestly see Axl on some of the first Snakepit songs.

Fun little quote from Slash about Snakepit and Axl:
"[The instrumental Jizz da Pit] was a riff I'd been carrying around that Axl hated. He called it 'red neck'. He hated it, so I never did anything with it." (Slash, Metal Edge Magazine, 04/95)"

[Ringoturtle]

Dave Navarro didn't show up at rehearsals. Slash was giving it a try.
Slash didn't want Paul.
Slash did Zakk Wylde give a try but a twin-lead guitar approach wasn?t going to work. comprehensible decision. can't imagine Zakk Wylde being satisfied with playing nothing but rhythym guitar Slash had every right to lay claim on the sole lead-guitar position.

How could he give it a try when they didn't rehearse?
Imagine if he had showed up. Chances are it would've been the same situation as with Zakk, or even Paul.

/jarmo

I think I got lost in translation. Slash was willing to give Dave Navarro a try. 2 to 3 times. but he never showed up. I don't know what would've happened.

[Ringoturtle]

It's come up a few times now, so I have to ask :

Did any of you really dig the Snakepit stuff?  More specifically, did you continue to listen to it after the initial releases?

I'll be honest, I never did.  I was so unimpressed, that first album actually convinced me that Slash would never leave GNR if that was all he could swing.

The VR stuff, I liked, for the most part.  Slash's solo albums have some good stuff.  I just never got into Snakepit.

I absolutely dig Snakepit II. great riffs and songs. with Axl on top of them, there would have been some great rock n roll songs in the vein of Guns N Roses. I think people lack fantasy to imagine how great these songs could've sounded with Axl. it's not generic. Been There Lately (ballsy and dirty riff!), The Truth, Serial Killer (solo!), Ain't Life Grand (solo!), Back to the Moment (solo!). DIFFERENT songs, awesome solos. of course the epic stuff is Axls thing. Rock n Roll songs are Slash thing. that's why they sound so damn well together. each can make use of his strengths.

Snakepit I has a jam-vibe to it. I understand that many people don't dig it. it's not packed with catchy, poppy hooklines. you really have to listen to it a few times.

VR sounded more modern but from a musical point of view it wasn't too impressive. and I've got to admit that Scott has not the vocalpower to complement VRs music. on more mellow songs he sounded great though (Fall to Pieces, Loving The Aliens, You Got No Right). Slash pretty much reduced his singlenote-riffing which made him great in GNR and Snakepit. missed it on both records.

[jarmo]

I think I got lost in translation. Slash was willing to give Dave Navarro a try. 2 to 3 times. but he never showed up. I don't know what would've happened.

No, I understood what you said.
Considering he was against the idea, chances are he would've gone with a "no" as his answer if Dave had actually managed to show up....



/jarmo

[DeN]

problem was and still is Axl & Slash relationship IMO.

between two real friends, it would not have been so problematic to record Sympathy with Gilby
who is a hardcore Stones fan, then bringing a new guy without rushing things for the next album.