The Flashback: Sympathy for the Devil

[jarmo]

But, by all accounts, Slash, Duff and Matt were simply not on board with the decision, for a few different reasons, (common sense that it was forced on them) so was his inclusion worth the potential conflict that it inevitably caused?

Matt's opinion is important because? I mean, all decisions were made by Axl, Duff and Slash weren't they?

I suspect there were conflicts even before this...

I don't think it had anything to do with the fact that he was AXL's FRIEND. Just that Axl forced the issue without their input.

I don't know if you saw what I posted earlier. But look at the band's history up to that point.
Axl and Izzy. Izzy quits. Axl wants Dave Navarro to replace him. Slash doesn't. Slash gets "his guy" Gilby in. Axl obviously doesn't think Gilby is the guy to write with and brings in Paul. Slash is against it.

Paul isn't the only one they disagreed on.

I have no facts to back it up, but there was probably some kind of resentment besides him being "forced" on them going on at the time. I mean, it wouldn't be weird if there was considering the past.

I'm sure he thought about it, but considering nothing else was an option, this was it.
The bottom line is. Do people who hear the song think it sounds horrible?

No the bottom line is that Paul should not have wound up on there.

You can take as circuitous a route as you like, but you are still going to wind up at that same destination.

You keep saying that. But you fail to answer questions... Like I said, you keep repeating the same stuff you could've said in 1995.

Yeah, nice try.

I'm curious why you only quoted that line and not the one that came right after.  Here, I'll show you :

I think as has been already stated that if they could not agree on a guy, Slash does both parts.

I think this was a random cover song on a soundtrack.  I don't think this was necessarily the same way they would continue their future as a band.

Oh...because when you add that other line that was right there, plain as day, it invalidates the "point" you are trying to make.

Nevermind.  I withdraw the question.  I see why you didn't include it.

It's hard to reply to all your multiple posts sometimes. I admit it.
I don't wanna post five replies so instead I put them all in one.

Please tell me what point I was trying to make.... I'm sure it wasn't "he shouldn't have been there".

But here's the thing.  When it comes to message boards, I'm about conversation, not conversion.

Is this why you time after time ignore questions asked?
I'm curious. Why do you take part in a conversation and then choose to ignore simple Yes/No questions?

One might suspect it's because it would "weaken your case".... I'm not gonna be bothered to ask you for a third time. I just think your act of wanting a conversation is just that, an act.

No, I write my posts for the group at large.  I make my case the best way I know how, and then allow the rest of the gang at the board to decide how it stands up.

I tend to trust its going to go my way.  If it doesn't...hey, than maybe my argument was not a strong one. 

I write what I think. Unless it's news or something. But that's kinda obvious.
Replies to things I feel to comment on. I don't necessarily have a target audience in mind when I type these words.

I don't worry about all that.

Have you been able to tell me I'm wrong about the things I've posted in this thread? No.
Your answer is "he shouldn't have been there because it made poor Slash angry". Yet, what if not having him there would've made Axl angry. Not interested in that point of view?


Edited to add: The day you wake up and realize that just because somebody manages to see the other point of view doesn't make them have an "apologetic mentality" or trying to defend somebody, will be quite special! You don't seem to realize that it's quite possible other people come to other conclusions based on what they know and/or have experienced in life. For you, this doesn't exist, others are simply apologetic and are defending people. Amazing really...



/jarmo

[GNR4LIFEJD]

Has anyone ever interviewed Paul Huge. I know he is like the red headed step child in the gnr family but i would be very interested in hearing how he got involved with GNR yes i know he was apparently friends with Axl but id like to hear what his thoughts were on the whole things. If anyone knows if he has please let me know because he might be more reclusive then Axl himself because if he was such a dividing force of the original lineup dont ya think interviewers would want his side of the story on things?

[JAEBALL]

But, by all accounts, Slash, Duff and Matt were simply not on board with the decision, for a few different reasons, (common sense that it was forced on them) so was his inclusion worth the potential conflict that it inevitably caused?

Matt's opinion is important because? I mean, all decisions were made by Axl, Duff and Slash weren't they?

I suspect there were conflicts even before this...

I don't think it had anything to do with the fact that he was AXL's FRIEND. Just that Axl forced the issue without their input.

I don't know if you saw what I posted earlier. But look at the band's history up to that point.
Axl and Izzy. Izzy quits. Axl wants Dave Navarro to replace him. Slash doesn't. Slash gets "his guy" Gilby in. Axl obviously doesn't think Gilby is the guy to write with and brings in Paul. Slash is against it.

Paul isn't the only one they disagreed on.

I have no facts to back it up, but there was probably some kind of resentment besides him being "forced" on them going on at the time. I mean, it wouldn't be weird if there was considering the past.

Even though Matt sided with Slash and Duff on Paul... It's true.. his "opinion" didn't matter. You got that one.

I think we are both "right" about this subject, there was definitely other resentments involved in everything with these two guys. Two VERY big egos bumping heads...


I just think Paul was going to be an issue , no matter how much of a "friend" he was to Axl or not. I'm sure if he blew their socks off during those rehearsals , Slash and Duff would have been more receptive to it. The guy obviously was a lightning rod that exasperated larger issues between the three men.

Both Slash and Axl resented each other for what they both perceived as the other guy trying to take too much control, so of course both were going to nix the others suggestions.

It's really all moot isn't it? No matter how much you have supported Axl over the years in his journey to carry on without them and n0 matter how much you love the record that became Chinese... was it the best result that could have happened? I would think anybody who became a fan of GNR way back when would say no...

[jarmo]

Even though Matt sided with Slash and Duff on Paul... It's true.. his "opinion" didn't matter. You got that one.

I mean, of course it matters. Nobody needs a grumpy band member. What I meant was, in the business sense it didn't matter.

I think we are both "right" about this subject, there was definitely other resentments involved in everything with these two guys. Two VERY big egos bumping heads...

If you look from Axl's point of view, Slash had said "no" to basically every rhythm guitarist Axl had suggested since Izzy quit.
At some point you start thinking that no matter what you suggest, the answer will be "no".

I just think Paul was going to be an issue , no matter how much of a "friend" he was to Axl or not. I'm sure if he blew their socks off during those rehearsals , Slash and Duff would have been more receptive to it. The guy obviously was a lightning rod that exasperated larger issues between the three men.

The irony is that Zakk Wylde probably did that and how did that go? Slash didn't want him in the band either.
Fair enough, you could say Paul was an unknown with little experience. But that doesn't automatically mean he can't do what he was there to do.

It's really all moot isn't it? No matter how much you have supported Axl over the years in his journey to carry on without them and n0 matter how much you love the record that became Chinese... was it the best result that could have happened? I would think anybody who became a fan of GNR way back when would say no...

Interesting point. Imagine if Axl had just stopped "caring" and they released multiple albums in the 1990s that were heavily influenced by Slash's way. We have Slash's albums from that time to listen to and get an idea where he was musically. So imagine GN'R releasing that kind of albums. Where would we be now then? Sure, you'd have more albums in your collection. But other than that, there'd be no reunion talk unless they decided to stop working together anyway....



/jarmo

[JAEBALL]

Even though Matt sided with Slash and Duff on Paul... It's true.. his "opinion" didn't matter. You got that one.

I mean, of course it matters. Nobody needs a grumpy band member. What I meant was, in the business sense it didn't matter.

I think we are both "right" about this subject, there was definitely other resentments involved in everything with these two guys. Two VERY big egos bumping heads...

If you look from Axl's point of view, Slash had said "no" to basically every rhythm guitarist Axl had suggested since Izzy quit.
At some point you start thinking that no matter what you suggest, the answer will be "no".

I just think Paul was going to be an issue , no matter how much of a "friend" he was to Axl or not. I'm sure if he blew their socks off during those rehearsals , Slash and Duff would have been more receptive to it. The guy obviously was a lightning rod that exasperated larger issues between the three men.

The irony is that Zakk Wylde probably did that and how did that go? Slash didn't want him in the band either.
Fair enough, you could say Paul was an unknown with little experience. But that doesn't automatically mean he can't do what he was there to do.

It's really all moot isn't it? No matter how much you have supported Axl over the years in his journey to carry on without them and n0 matter how much you love the record that became Chinese... was it the best result that could have happened? I would think anybody who became a fan of GNR way back when would say no...

Interesting point. Imagine if Axl had just stopped "caring" and they released multiple albums in the 1990s that were heavily influenced by Slash's way. We have Slash's albums from that time to listen to and get an idea where he was musically. So imagine GN'R releasing that kind of albums. Where would we be now then? Sure, you'd have more albums in your collection. But other than that, there'd be no reunion talk unless they decided to stop working together anyway....



/jarmo

The rhythm spot was doomed to fail no matter what... Izzy was SO IMPORTANT to every single GNR recording up until that time.

Everybody seems to agree that those Snakepit records were not up to par, but would we feel that way if they were recorded by Axl and the rest of GNR?

What if GNR went on to create something similar to Contraband? (which I love) Axl's vocal's on top of Slither and some of those riffs on that album... would have been epic.


What if Chinese and other follow ups were a blend of all these songs... wouldn't that have been sweet? Guns n Roses continuing... making music we all love.

[D-GenerationX]

Please tell me what point I was trying to make.... I'm sure it wasn't "he shouldn't have been there".

You took one line out of a post to make it seem like I was saying that the band was going to continue on as a one guitar operation with Slash the main man.

Problem is, that post where you took that line...THE VERY NEXT LINE said that's not what I was saying.  That I was only talking about that one random cover song on a soundtrack.

So you didn't include that second line, as if no one would notice.  Or no one could read, or have any memory skills.

Took about 3 seconds to disprove.  Its all right on the last page for anyone to see.

[D-GenerationX]

Has anyone ever interviewed Paul Huge. I know he is like the red headed step child in the gnr family but i would be very interested in hearing how he got involved with GNR yes i know he was apparently friends with Axl but id like to hear what his thoughts were on the whole things. If anyone knows if he has please let me know because he might be more reclusive then Axl himself because if he was such a dividing force of the original lineup dont ya think interviewers would want his side of the story on things?

I've gone back and forth on this.

I'd like to think the guy had at least SOME self awareness and could see this was awkward.  But I also tend to think Axl assured him it would all be alright and he'd sort it out with the other guys.

So, in that sense, I think is more about Axl than it was Paul, in terms of fault.

However, then you have Matt saying that the guy was then running Slash down afterwards.  That hurts the idea he wasn't there to step on anybody's toes.  So maybe he's not blameless.

Yet I could easily see why he doesn't talk.  How does that go well for him?

[JAEBALL]

It's actually too bad Richard wasn't around in 94-95, Slash is supposedly a fan right?

[D-GenerationX]

It's actually too bad Richard wasn't around in 94-95, Slash is supposedly a fan right?

Yeah, what might have been, huh?

[GNR4LIFEJD]

Has anyone ever interviewed Paul Huge. I know he is like the red headed step child in the gnr family but i would be very interested in hearing how he got involved with GNR yes i know he was apparently friends with Axl but id like to hear what his thoughts were on the whole things. If anyone knows if he has please let me know because he might be more reclusive then Axl himself because if he was such a dividing force of the original lineup dont ya think interviewers would want his side of the story on things?

I've gone back and forth on this.

I'd like to think the guy had at least SOME self awareness and could see this was awkward.  But I also tend to think Axl assured him it would all be alright and he'd sort it out with the other guys.

So, in that sense, I think is more about Axl than it was Paul, in terms of fault.

However, then you have Matt saying that the guy was then running Slash down afterwards.  That hurts the idea he wasn't there to step on anybody's toes.  So maybe he's not blameless.

Yet I could easily see why he doesn't talk.  How does that go well for him?

I guess more of the question is if anybody has ever tried talking to him. Again i'd love to get his back story and learn more about who he is how he met axl maybe he has mentioned that somewhere before i don't know. I understand the guy is not going to go into the underbelly of gnr and talk about those ugly times but could shed some light on the mood at the time. These guys are adults they should be able to handle themselves when it comes to hard questions

[sky dog]

Paul co wrote TWAT, Catcher, Prostitute, SOD, IRS, Riad, Oh My God, and Chinese Democracy...8 of the 15 new Gnr tracks....not to mention probably a bunch of others we haven't heard....to say he was "hopeless" is just being a dick when 3 years later he is contributing to some pretty good songs. 2 sides of the fence here. I can see both sides of the argument.  

[JAEBALL]

Paul co wrote TWAT, Catcher, Prostitute, SOD, IRS, Riad, Oh My God, and Chinese Democracy...8 of the 15 new Gnr tracks....not to mention probably a bunch of others we haven't heard....to say he was "hopeless" is just being a dick when 3 years later he is contributing to some pretty good songs. 2 sides of the fence here. I can see both sides of the argument.  

Absolutely not disputing his contributions to what became of the next GNR record. Some of those songs... I really love.

Not the issue at hand.

[sky dog]

kinda of an issue as it shows how close minded Slash was when it came to people he played with. Let's be honest, he is a bit of a control freak himself. Nobody was good enough for him at the time unless it was one of his yes men...which is what Gilby was.

Like I said, if it was that hard to find middle ground, then just roll with Slash, Ax, Matt, Duff and Dizzy for a f'n cover song!!!!!

[JAEBALL]

kinda of an issue as it shows how close minded Slash was when it came to people he played with. Let's be honest, he is a bit of a control freak himself. Nobody was good enough for him at the time unless it was one of his yes men...which is what Gilby was.

Like I said, if it was that hard to find middle ground, then just roll with Slash, Ax, Matt, Duff and Dizzy for a f'n cover song!!!!!

I agree with all that...

Look Slash wanted Gilby... Axl didn't... neither was going to budge. I just don't fall in the camp that they should have forged ahead with Paul just because there was no other suggestion from Slash.

[D-GenerationX]

kinda of an issue as it shows how close minded Slash was when it came to people he played with.

I see that point.  And I agree that (eventually) we did get to see Paul was not just some hack.

But that doesn't mean he fit into GNR circa 1994.  Some of the CD songs you listed are very good songs, in my opinion.  Not terribly congruent with what GNR had been about in 1994, though.  Just because a guy can prove he has talent, doesn't mean he's a great fit for every band.

Think of it like sports.  A true back to the basket big man can have all the talent in the world.  But if you are going to try and shoehorn him onto a fast breaking team that flies up and down the court, he's a bad fit.

Paul was a bad fit for that band, at that time.  Maybe in more ways than one.

[D-GenerationX]

Look Slash wanted Gilby... Axl didn't... neither was going to budge. I just don't fall in the camp that they should have forged ahead with Paul just because there was no other suggestion from Slash.

Totally agree.  Goes both ways too.

Let's flip this around.  Suppose it was Axl that heard the finished product and heard Gilby on there.  And when he asked Slash what the hell happened, Slash tells him that he couldn't wait for Axl to make up his god damn mind, so he just went ahead with Gilby on his own say so.

Well, that's also wrong.  Its not fair to Axl.

Its about mutual respect.  Its not yet another "Axl as victim" scenario.

[JAEBALL]

kinda of an issue as it shows how close minded Slash was when it came to people he played with.

I see that point.  And I agree that (eventually) we did get to see Paul was not just some hack.

But that doesn't mean he fit into GNR circa 1994.  Some of the CD songs you listed are very good songs, in my opinion.  Not terribly congruent with what GNR had been about in 1994, though.  Just because a guy can prove he has talent, doesn't mean he's a great fit for every band.

Think of it like sports.  A true back to the basket big man can have all the talent in the world.  But if you are going to try and shoehorn him onto a fast breaking team that flies up and down the court, he's a bad fit.

Paul was a bad fit for that band, at that time.  Maybe in more ways than one.

That is actually very well said.

Paul was simply not a fit for that band and at that time.

[Ringoturtle]

how did the Gilby departure actually go down? band decision?

Dave Navarro didn't show up at rehearsals. Slash was giving it a try.
Slash didn't want Paul.
Slash did Zakk Wylde give a try but a twin-lead guitar approach wasn?t going to work. comprehensible decision. can't imagine Zakk Wylde being satisfied with playing nothing but rhythym guitar Slash had every right to lay claim on the sole lead-guitar position.

which further guitarists did Axl suggest?

[jarmo]

Everybody seems to agree that those Snakepit records were not up to par, but would we feel that way if they were recorded by Axl and the rest of GNR?

What if GNR went on to create something similar to Contraband? (which I love) Axl's vocal's on top of Slither and some of those riffs on that album... would have been epic.


What if Chinese and other follow ups were a blend of all these songs... wouldn't that have been sweet? Guns n Roses continuing... making music we all love.

There's more to it than just the quality. According to Axl, Slash wasn't interested in pushing himself. I think that was the idea.

Contraband came out in 2004, after Slash had decided that Snakepit wasn't working after all... Would it have happened if he was still into Snakepit in like 2002?
Who knows. Anyway, VR imploded as well... And it had nothing to do with Axl or who he wanted to play guitar.

Anyway, do you feel like if GN'R had stayed together, they would've tried making a more modern album in the 200s after making those "Slash albums" in the 1990s? Or just continue on the same path....

You took one line out of a post to make it seem like I was saying that the band was going to continue on as a one guitar operation with Slash the main man.

Problem is, that post where you took that line...THE VERY NEXT LINE said that's not what I was saying.  That I was only talking about that one random cover song on a soundtrack.

So you didn't include that second line, as if no one would notice.  Or no one could read, or have any memory skills.

Took about 3 seconds to disprove.  Its all right on the last page for anyone to see.

No, I asked you if it was fair to do that on one track considering Axl wanted two guitars.
Also, since there was so much animosity regarding the situation, do you think it would've gotten better if Slash was the sole guitar player on the track?
That was my whole point.

Your answer is "Slash should've done everything" and what's the result? Didn't think about that yet?

Paul co wrote TWAT, Catcher, Prostitute, SOD, IRS, Riad, Oh My God, and Chinese Democracy...8 of the 15 new Gnr tracks....not to mention probably a bunch of others we haven't heard....to say he was "hopeless" is just being a dick when 3 years later he is contributing to some pretty good songs. 2 sides of the fence here. I can see both sides of the argument.  

Valid point. He was there to help create new material. He gets shit for playing on a cover song. Kinda misses the big picture, but that's not surprising.

Dave Navarro didn't show up at rehearsals. Slash was giving it a try.
Slash didn't want Paul.
Slash did Zakk Wylde give a try but a twin-lead guitar approach wasn’t going to work. comprehensible decision. can't imagine Zakk Wylde being satisfied with playing nothing but rhythym guitar Slash had every right to lay claim on the sole lead-guitar position.

How could he give it a try when they didn't rehearse?
Imagine if he had showed up. Chances are it would've been the same situation as with Zakk, or even Paul.



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

how did the Gilby departure actually go down? band decision?

It was always my understanding that they saw him as a tour fill-in and not much more.

The Chinese Whispers site has quotes from both Axl and Slash saying they didn't see him as a full time guy.