The Flashback: Sympathy for the Devil

[D-GenerationX]

must say I agree....a cover song on a soundtrack? Cobbled together piecemeal. Last I checked, Led Zep did alright with one guitar player, bass, drums, and vocals. It was a hot mess then no matter what angle you take. 

Like someone said before, it was the sound of a great band falling apart. It still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Just being honest.

Agreed all around.

Really wish I didn't like it so much.  This thread really reminded me how often I listen to it, which is a lot.

[D-GenerationX]

I think it misses the point of a discussion when you're not even remotely interested in having one.
Yeah, good job. you already figured out hours ago that I'd ask you questions and try to make you think beyond the "this is what I think and I don't need to take anything else into account" routine.

I'm just being honest, as I've been form the jump first thing this morning, with both you and Emily.

If you are under the impression there is a "well, hear me out" and/or "if you think about it" rationale that will eventually lead me over to your side that its totally cool Axl sandbagged his entire band with this nonsense, its just not going to happen.

Dick move and a bad idea.  Was then, is now, forever and ever....amen.

Not every conversation is going to end with a miraculous conversion by one of the parties.  In fact, I think very few do.

Often, even after hashing it out, there is a baseline that does not change.  At best, you might see the other person's point. 

[D-GenerationX]

You believe that the band broke up because of this cover song and the rhythm guitar player on it?

No.

As someone said upthread, this becomes a straw that broke the camel's back type of situation.

Axl was already well off the reservation by 1994 in terms of relating to his own band.  Travelled alone, spent less and less time with them offstage, etc.

Here you wind up with a situation where he showed just about zero regard to how his power play was going to go over with his band, who he was treating like his employees with this move.

It was a move that showed he truly gave no fucks what the others thought, because as had been pointed out several times now, they ALL hated Paul.  Too fucking bad, says Axl. 

Its at that point, you start to really question what you are even doing anymore.  And the exodus begins.

[D-GenerationX]

Maybe i wouldn't ask this if you had answered my question to you already. So let's try again. Which do you think would be a bigger blow for a songwriting lead guitar player in an unnamed band: Having your songs rejected or not having the say on who plays rhythm guitar on a cover song for a movie you hate?

Probably the former. 

But the latter shows how little your opinion truly matters to self deputized boss of what was up until then, a collaborative band.

And since it was the latter that was the final straw, I'd say that was a bigger deal than the former.

[D-GenerationX]

By the way, sometimes I put, or at least try to, some thought into my posts. So when you just choose to focus on one sentence and ignore the rest, it kinda goes against the whole idea about being a person who's interested in discussions.....

I know you think that's what you are doing.

But a lot of time, this "thought" you are putting into your posts tend to be more along the lines of protecting Axl at all times.

So if I gloss over something, its not that I don't see its what you are going for.  I just don't share your, at times, apologist mentality.  Its not paramount to me.

Not every conversation has to end "...and that why you can't really blame Axl, if you think about it."

Sometimes, you can.

[LongGoneDay]

Slash didn?t like Paul. Duff didn?t like Paul.

Do you think any of these feelings were based on anything other than "he can't play"?
Do you think it was more about the fact that they had no other suggestions and that he was Axl's idea? Axl's idea = bad.
Also, do you think Duff siding with Slash could have anything to do with him trying to keep the peace in the band? He had already sided with Axl on the songs Slash had written, so with that in mind, is it possible he was kinda gonna go with Slash on this issue to please Slash? Is that possible? I know, it's a hypothetical question. Don't have any evidence to back it up. But neither do those who posted about guitar tracks being erased so....

/jarmo

I suppose your scenario could be possible. Who knows.
Regardless, I think the simple fact that anyone in the band, in this case Slash, wasn?t comfortable with his inclusion, in a perfect world should have been enough.
Ideally, if they really felt they needed to have a rhythm guitarist in place to record SFTD, they would have collectively searched until they found a player they could agree upon.

[EmilyGNR]

I think Slash's substance problems were a major part of the issue.

That said, Do you think its possible that that GN'R  was ruined when Slash refused to work with Paul Tobias and do you think it could have been great if had worked with Paul?

Somehow Paul has turned into some kind of villain and hack but listening to Sympathy For The Devil, it really makes me interested in what that GN'R album would have been like had Paul been included, not as an official member or Izzy replacement, but as an official songwriter/producer?

 I think SFTD kicks ass, and I don't hear the bad guitar work people claim is there from Paul. I think he does compliment Slash pretty damn well on it. And considering that Paul was involved in some of the best songs off of CD, couldn't he have brought something really special to those recordings?

It sounds to me Paul was nixed because Slash and Duff didn't like him. None of them have to like each other, and they didn't.

During that time, all that would have needed to happen is for Paul to have jammed some ideas with Slash and I guess he and Duff didn't want to do that.

Paul ended up writing with Mother Goose and Dizzy and made some pretty incredible stuff so I don't see how it was just: "this guy sucks, he can't play and he can't write" when he's shown that isn't true.

[EmilyGNR]

Also-

Axl:
"The public gets a different story from the other guys ? Slash, Duff, Matt ? who have their own agendas. The original intentions between Paul and myself were that Paul was going to help me for as long as it took to get this thing together in whatever capacity that he could help me in. So when he first was brought into this, he was brought in as a writer to work with Slash."

[sky dog]

maybe, yes, had Slash given in so to say....yeah, they may have ended up alright when songs like Catcher, TWAT, IRS, The Blues etc eventually sprung up...all could have been classic era Gnr tracks. Can't cry over spilt Milkboy! What is done is done...can't erase the past.

[sky dog]

Emily, the problem with Axl's comment is that they obviously did not like him...you have to get along on some level. Honestly, I don't think Tommy got along with him at first either.

Another source says there's tension between him and Stinson because Huge "has the whole Guns attitude but he's never toured"....Spin 1999

[jarmo]

If you are under the impression there is a "well, hear me out" and/or "if you think about it" rationale that will eventually lead me over to your side that its totally cool Axl sandbagged his entire band with this nonsense, its just not going to happen.

I don't consider myself that naive and/or stupid to even think you'd change your mind on anything you've made up your mind about decades ago. Don't worry!

Dick move and a bad idea.  Was then, is now, forever and ever....amen.

And I think he might have gotten over it if he didn't choose to quit soon after. Then it became a bigger deal and yet another reason for why he possibly couldn't stay in GN'R. I mean, imagine if that hadn't been the last recording/released... It might've been a like footnote in the history between "TSI??" and whatever came next....

No.

As someone said upthread, this becomes a straw that broke the camel's back type of situation.

Axl was already well off the reservation by 1994 in terms of relating to his own band.  Travelled alone, spent less and less time with them offstage, etc.

Here you wind up with a situation where he showed just about zero regard to how his power play was going to go over with his band, who he was treating like his employees with this move.

It was a move that showed he truly gave no fucks what the others thought, because as had been pointed out several times now, they ALL hated Paul.  Too fucking bad, says Axl. 

Its at that point, you start to really question what you are even doing anymore.  And the exodus begins.

That's one side of the story, where you just run with the evil Axl theory.
You failed to mention drug problems, Duff getting sober, nearly dying, Slash having his songs rejected, nobody else offering any suggestions and so on...

I know you think that's what you are doing.

But a lot of time, this "thought" you are putting into your posts tend to be more along the lines of protecting Axl at all times.

So if I gloss over something, its not that I don't see its what you are going for.  I just don't share your, at times, apologist mentality.  Its not paramount to me.

Not every conversation has to end "...and that why you can't really blame Axl, if you think about it."

Sometimes, you can.

Protecting? Haha.
I'm posting what I think. You're not the only one who can think. Or at least claim to.

You don't share my "apologist mentality"? What kind of weak shit is that?
I present a point and instead of addressing it you ignore it. Because of my "apologetic mentality"? Please.

I don't share your ________ mentality but I still can address the points you bring up, even if they're pulled out of thin air with nothing to back them up....

Like i said, so much for claiming to be interested in discussions.

I suppose your scenario could be possible. Who knows.
Regardless, I think the simple fact that anyone in the band, in this case Slash, wasn’t comfortable with his inclusion, in a perfect world should have been enough.
Ideally, if they really felt they needed to have a rhythm guitarist in place to record SFTD, they would have collectively searched until they found a player they could agree upon.

Well he didn't wanna work with him. He didn't wanna write with him.
So in a way, Axl had him on the track and it got the track done and it gave everybody a way to hear how those two sounded together (and obviously it gave Slash one more reason to be angry).

Yes, in a perfect world they would've found someone they could've agreed on. But this was a soundtrack song. Chances are there were deadlines to be met...

Also, who did Axl suggest to replace Izzy? Dave Navarro. Didn't happen. Which made Slash happy so he got Gilby instead.... Maybe Axl thought Slash's choice wasn't the best... Worked for a tour, but then he was let go. Slash's choice might've proved to Axl that Slash didn't agree on guitar players and whoever Slash wanted might be "just another Gilby" (not trying to offend or disrespect anyone, just a way of speaking here)?





/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Ideally, if they really felt they needed to have a rhythm guitarist in place to record SFTD, they would have collectively searched until they found a player they could agree upon.

Wouldn't you assume this was the plan?  I sure would.

[D-GenerationX]

I think SFTD kicks ass, and I don't hear the bad guitar work people claim is there from Paul. I think he does compliment Slash pretty damn well on it. And considering that Paul was involved in some of the best songs off of CD, couldn't he have brought something really special to those recordings?

No issue with the way his parts sound either. Just a bad situation.

Honestly, I could not even tell.  Had Slash never said that, I'd have no idea.

 

Having said that, after seeing him as the Yoko Ono of my favorite band for almost 15 years, I did have to re-evaluate after seeing how involved he was in the production of CD.  You never really know who did what, but he's all over the production credits on a lot of songs I wound up liking.

Can't turn back time or unring that bell.  But I don't think its fair to judge him solely on that one unfortunate episode at the beginning of his tenure, which he may not have even had all that much say in, anyway.

Preach it, sister. 

As you can see, I'm right with you.

[D-GenerationX]

That's one side of the story, where you just run with the evil Axl theory.
You failed to mention drug problems, Duff getting sober, nearly dying, Slash having his songs rejected, nobody else offering any suggestions and so on...

I don't deny any of them though.  Has that happened?

What has happened, is that I've explained that I don't see how they affect what Axl did.

Paul Huge is not on that track because Slash was on drugs, Duff was a drunk, Slash havings songs rejected, nor not having a name on the spot for a replacment.

I think that's a tremendous reach. 

If that is your opinion, I do not share it.

[jarmo]

That's one side of the story, where you just run with the evil Axl theory.
You failed to mention drug problems, Duff getting sober, nearly dying, Slash having his songs rejected, nobody else offering any suggestions and so on...

I don't deny any of them though.  Has that happened?

What has happened, is that I've explained that I don't see how they affect what Axl did.

Paul Huge is not on that track because Slash was on drugs, Duff was a drunk, Slash havings songs rejected, nor not having a name on the spot for a replacment.

I think that's a tremendous reach. 

If that is your opinion, I do not share it.

Duff wasn't a drunk at that point. He had just gotten sober after nearly dying!


I didn't say those were the reasons for Paul being on the track.

I'm trying to explain to you the whole situation.

I'll try again.
Drug problem: Might make your priorities different? Might make those around you look at you differently and take you less seriously?
Having song rejected: Might make you angry, bitter, resentful? That could later on affect your decisions on unrelated matters?
Not having any suggestions for guitarist: Might make it look like you're not even trying and you're just saying no out of spite?


So in essence, what I'm telling you that some of those MIGHT have been reason(s) for the decisions made at the time.
Not saying they're the main reason(s) or only one(s).

I've also posted more possible reasons in an earlier post.
A lot of free thinking tonight... Phew!


/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

So in essence, what I'm telling you that some of those MIGHT have been reason(s) for the decisions made at the time.
Not saying they're the main reason(s) or only one(s).

Could be.

Another factor, might just be that Axl decided he wanted him on there, and that was that.

Think?  In the mix, at least?? 

It's at least in the mix, I think.

[jarmo]

I think Axl wanted him there, there was nobody else around and he probably knew Paul would work since they already knew each other. That's what I think.

What was the alternative do you think? Do you think not recording the song he wanted to record was one? Or do you think that letting Slash decide who plays on the track that he himself didn't even wanna do would've been the thing to do? Maybe you're thinking that Slash should've picked who plays guitar like he did in 1991 when he chose Gilby?

Oh, and do you think the others would've hated Paul less if he wasn't Axl's friend?





/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

I think Axl wanted him there, there was nobody else around and he probably knew Paul would work since they already knew each other. That's what I think.

Do you think that Axl knew what they all thought of him?

Do you think that sounded like a salvageable situation?

Do you think if your 2 senior partners, at at least one other junior member aren't onboard, you should re-think your plan?

What was the alternative do you think? Do you think not recording the song he wanted to record was one? Or do you think that letting Slash decide who plays on the track that he himself didn't even wanna do would've been the thing to do? Maybe you're thinking that Slash should've picked who plays guitar like he did in 1991 when he chose Gilby?

I think as has been already stated that if they could not agree on a guy, Slash does both parts.

I think this was a random cover song on a soundtrack.  I don't think this was necessarily the same way they would continue their future as a band.

I think know that I've already said all of these things already.

Oh, and do you think the others would've hated Paul less if he wasn't Axl's friend?

Oh, this is just pity party stuff.  Come on now.

Was this one serious?

[sky dog]

alright...bedtime?

[sky dog]

D-Gen, here is the problem you have playing cards with Jarmo. He has pocket Kings from the start and you have a Jack and a Queen. I would imagine he could tell you quite a bit more about the ins and outs of what has happened....real facts. However, out of loyalty he is going to withhold his cards. Even when the truth comes out about certain things and you have to fold, he isn't going to show you what he had. Capiche?

Such is life for us common folks.