The Flashback: Sympathy for the Devil

[jarmo]

There was a reason he did it in secret while keeping Slash out of the loop.  And I doubt it was because he forgot Slash's phone number.

According to Slash, it was done without telling him. Doesn't necessarily mean it was done in secret.

In no rational universe do you erase his rhythm track under cover of night and replace it with someone else's.  That's really the point here.

Where was it stated something was erased in order to put Paul's track on the track? Also, you really do make it sound like a top secret spy mission took place.... 
How much of that is actual truth and how much have you embellished to try to prove your point?


At the time, Duff had basically just gotten sober. Slash wasn't exactly in that boat.
Duff had agreed with Axl on the songs Slash had written for GN'R, so does that influence his opinion on Paul, to side with Slash? He agreed with Axl, and in order to keep the peace now he had to agree with Slash? Who knows.

But there's all these things that might, or might not, play part in the story and nobody seems to be interested in it other than "Axl secretly erased guitar tracks under the cover of night to be able to put Paul on the song".... Yeah, that sounds like a headline you'd sell some magazines with.

Doesn't mean that's how things happened though.




/jarmo

[JAEBALL]

It was a situation that was handled very poorly , no matter how you slice it.

It certainly was a big factor in the implosion.

So was it worth it ? For this cover song ?

[D-GenerationX]

There was a reason he did it in secret while keeping Slash out of the loop.  And I doubt it was because he forgot Slash's phone number.

According to Slash, it was done without telling him. Doesn't necessarily mean it was done in secret.

In no rational universe do you erase his rhythm track under cover of night and replace it with someone else's.  That's really the point here.

Where was it stated something was erased in order to put Paul's track on the track? Also, you really do make it sound like a top secret spy mission took place.... 
How much of that is actual truth and how much have you embellished to try to prove your point?

For clarification's sake (since you seem to be dancing around it) are you, in fact, claiming :

- Slash knew his rhythm track was getting erased after he laid it down
- Slash knew it was going to be replaced by Paul, who he was on record not being a fan of
- Slash was not the least bit surprised when he heard it after release, since this was all done in the open
- Slash made all this up for some reason

That's where we're going, right?  We'd have to be.  Might as well own it.

[TheBaconman]

From what I remember.  Slash was going to do the rythem parts.   

[D-GenerationX]

From what I remember.  Slash was going to do the rythem parts.   

And at no point did the words "Hey, you know who'd be great on this?  Your boy, Paul." come out of his mouth.

[D-GenerationX]

You know what?  Let's get out ahead of the next deflection.

Is there much of a difference between erasing a Slash rhythm track and putting Paul on there, or putting Paul on there before the rhythm track was laid down?

I ask because I can sort of see those wheels already turning.   

Does either choice fundamentally change the fact Paul Huge winds up on a Guns N' Roses track without the knowledge of anyone else in the band but Axl?

[EmilyGNR]

From what I remember.  Slash was going to do the rythem parts.   

And at no point did the words "Hey, you know who'd be great on this?  Your boy, Paul." come out of his mouth.

Who said it did? Straw man argument/statement.

[D-GenerationX]

From what I remember.  Slash was going to do the rythem parts.   

And at no point did the words "Hey, you know who'd be great on this?  Your boy, Paul." come out of his mouth.

Who said it did? Straw man argument/statement.

This was a response to Jarmo passive aggressively introducing the argument that Slash (maybe, can't say for sure) knew about Paul's inclusion.

I'm not taking the passive aggressive route, but rather saying flat out : Slash did not know.

[EmilyGNR]

You know what?  Let's get out ahead of the next deflection.

Is there much of a difference between erasing a Slash rhythm track and putting Paul on there, or putting Paul on there before the rhythm track was laid down?

I ask because I can sort of see those wheels already turning.   

Does either choice fundamentally change the fact Paul Huge winds up on a Guns N' Roses track without the knowledge of anyone else in the band but Axl?

How can you prove that? Slash wasn't exactly sober in those days.

The atmosphere was already strained due to Slash taking the songs back that he intended for GNR and using them for his solo album- it was already tense.

[EmilyGNR]

From what I remember.  Slash was going to do the rythem parts.   

And at no point did the words "Hey, you know who'd be great on this?  Your boy, Paul." come out of his mouth.

Who said it did? Straw man argument/statement.

This was a response to Jarmo passive aggressively introducing the argument that Slash (maybe, can't say for sure) knew about Paul's inclusion.

I'm not taking the passive aggressive route, but rather saying flat out : Slash did not know.

I saw no passive-aggressiveness at all, I think you are imagining things on your mission to blame Axl for everything.

[D-GenerationX]

How can you prove that? Slash wasn't exactly sober in those days.

I can no more prove it than you can disprove it, really.

On the other hand, I have direct comments from him saying its what happened.  Do you have direct comments from ANYONE that refute it?

[D-GenerationX]

I saw no passive-aggressiveness at all, I think you are imagining things on your mission to blame Axl for everything.

Well, I threw a post up the page asking him to clarify if that was in fact what he was after.

Maybe I read that wrong.  We will see.

[EmilyGNR]

Looking back Slash made little effort to make things work. His demos werent good enough to be the next guns record. He reacts by making the record with half of guns n roses anyway.
6 months later, He was not happy with the new guitar players that was brought in. Fair thing.
Slash reacts by going on tour with the old guitar player and talking  shit about Axl and Paul in numerous interviews.

Great points! He wasn't happy with Zakk or for that matter to start with- Izzy either.

With the internal drama in Guns now boiling, Slash was quick to set up his Snakepit album for release, ironically, on Valentine's Day '95. Zutaut must've known the risks involved: for a while, Axl had threatened to sue Slash if those 3-4 demos would be released.

"...and rounded out the lineup [of snakepit]with Gilby Clarke." (Slash, Autobiography)

"The Gilby thing did piss Axl off. But Gilby was pissed off too... I wasn't mad at Gilby. I can do what the f**k I want. And if he wanted to work with me after all this shit..." (Slash, Kerrang, 01/95)

[EmilyGNR]

How can you prove that? Slash wasn't exactly sober in those days.

I can no more prove it than you can disprove it, really.

On the other hand, I have direct comments from him saying its what happened.  Do you have direct comments from ANYONE that refute it?

If you choose to believe the words of a known junkie, that says a lot about your  motive here.

[jarmo]

For clarification's sake (since you seem to be dancing around it) are you, in fact, claiming :

- Slash knew his rhythm track was getting erased after he laid it down
- Slash knew it was going to be replaced by Paul, who he was on record not being a fan of
- Slash was not the least bit surprised when he heard it after release, since this was all done in the open
- Slash made all this up for some reason

That's where we're going, right?  We'd have to be.  Might as well own it.

I ask you to clarify your post and you ask me questions?
What happened to answering me first?


- Where is the info about his rhythm track being erased? It wasn't mentioned in his book.
- Where is the info that this mysterious track was recorded in secret in the cover of the night? Yes, it's possible it was done at night, Axl seems to prefer to work later hours than some others.

I think you're embellishing the story to prove your point. Not unusual. But would be nice to get some facts first...

And you chose to ignore the other stuff I said. Instead you choose to focus on one part of it....

This was a response to Jarmo passive aggressively introducing the argument that Slash (maybe, can't say for sure) knew about Paul's inclusion.

I'm not taking the passive aggressive route, but rather saying flat out : Slash did not know.

Passive aggressive? There's nothing aggressive about asking some questions.
It's supposed to be a discussion.

I didn't say he knew. I said your version of the event is painted in a certain way. Cover of the night, secretly.
Please. What is this? James Bond?

You make it sound like it was some sort of secret evil mission.
Maybe the reality is that Slash didn't care too much. He was pissed off.
Then he found out after what had happened and it made him more pissed off.

You think he was banned from the studio? You think the studio where Paul was recording was at a secret location on a remote island or something? Maybe a bunker?
Chances are it was the same studio where Slash had worked earlier, with the difference that he left because he didn't wanna deal with the situation and was surprised he wasn't told about what was going on.

Plausible? A crazy conspiracy theory? Nah, you'll go with your version about how it was secret and even used the night to hide it all happening!  

How can you prove that? Slash wasn't exactly sober in those days.

I can no more prove it than you can disprove it, really.

Duff writing about that particular time in his book:
Slash was beyond the heavy nodding, but he was still using heroin. Still, that posed no immediate problem for me. When I saw him ducking out to fix, I wasn’t thinking, Oh, that looks good.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

How can you prove that? Slash wasn't exactly sober in those days.

I can no more prove it than you can disprove it, really.

On the other hand, I have direct comments from him saying its what happened.  Do you have direct comments from ANYONE that refute it?

If you choose to believe the words of a known junkie, that says a lot about your  motive here.

Not getting involved in a personal pissing match here, Emily.

But will say this is not really an answer to my question.

[D-GenerationX]

Passive aggressive? There's nothing aggressive about asking some questions.
It's supposed to be a discussion.

I didn't say he knew. I said your version of the event is painted in a certain way. Cover of the night, secretly.
Please. What is this? James Bond?

You make it sound like it was some sort of secret evil mission.
Maybe the reality is that Slash didn't care too much. He was pissed off.
Then he found out after what had happened and it made him more pissed off.

You think he was banned from the studio? You think the studio where Paul was recording was at a secret location on a remote island or something? Maybe a bunker?
Chances are it was the same studio where Slash had worked earlier, with the difference that he left because he didn't wanna deal with the situation and was surprised he wasn't told about what was going on.

Plausible? A crazy conspiracy theory? Nah, you'll go with your version about how it was secret and even used the night to hide it all happening!  

I was just looking to clarify that you weren't, in fact, claiming he knew.  It doesn't sound like you are claiming that, so I was wrong to assume that.

As for your post here, no, I can't dismiss it.  I can say it comes across more than a little desperate and an attempt to not have to admit to something that doesn't make Axl look great.

But could any of your alternate theories be true?  Sure, why not?

[LongGoneDay]

Maybe it?s possible Axl didn?t fully realize how much Paul?s inclusion would piss Slash off. Who knows.
Communication certainly wasn?t there strong suit back then. Doesn?t appear Axl has made many strides in that regard since.

[jarmo]

I was just looking to clarify that you weren't, in fact, claiming he knew.  It doesn't sound like you are claiming that, so I was wrong to assume that.

As for your post here, no, I can't dismiss it.  I can say it comes across more than a little desperate and an attempt to not have to admit to something that doesn't make Axl look great.

But could any of your alternate theories be true?  Sure, why not?

Thanks.


Like I've said, there's all kind of things that affect other things. Here, we have one isolated thing we're discussion. But, maybe it's not isolated?
There's all kinds of stuff that happened before and around that time that might, or might not, have influenced the thing in question.

It's not about Axl. It's not about Slash.
It's about discussing the event(s) and offering some thoughts on it. It's easy to keep it simple, it's easy to say what you said. But that isn't the whole picture.

Unlike you, I admit that I believe there's more to this story than "Axl erased Slash's parts and secretly had his friend Paul play them". I don't buy that simple version of something that probably took a lot longer to play out.

How's that for open minded?



I still didn't see the evidence of the erasing of guitar parts. I did read his book and he doesn't mention Axl erasing anything. Only that the parts were added on top of his.
If you think that's the same thing, then, fair enough. Even though I don't agree.... Putting something in addition to something doesn't remove what was there. Removing something to add something else, obviously removes what was originally there.... Which I'm sure most people would agree with.



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Maybe it?s possible Axl didn?t fully realize how much Paul?s inclusion would piss Slash off. Who knows.

Could be.  As in, he knew he's be pissed, just not to a "fuck it, I'm out of here" level of pissed.

My bigger problem is that Axl was willing to roll those dice.  Which is why I initially framed this as a total lack of respect.  You would have to peel Axl off the fucking ceiling if this was done to him in reverse, and he would be well within his right to be pissed, in my opinion.

So how could you go through with it?