Why do you love Chinese Democracy?

[ITARocker]

CD IS definitely Overproduced. I mean, the songs are very good but the mixing is a nightmare. You can clearly hear only two things: the drums and Axl's voice. You have 3 guitars but you can barely list to what they're playing, plus you have sounds effects, orchestras, etc...Just too much.. And what about the "background voices"?? You know...it's just too Axl, you have his voice almost everywhere, Again, it's just too much. It's an exhausting album, because of the mixing and because of some choice i would never have done. Sometimes is Axl voice, sometimes is the jungle of sounds...In the end it could have been a lot better.
.
Love catcher in the rye & better

[jazjme]

It's just a great fking record that's why! I still have the cd in my car and I do still listen to it almost daily. Great album that for some reason people seem to not understand.

What he said!!!!!

[CherryGarcia]

EmilyGNR is correct here - people throwing around the term 'overproduced' without understanding the concept and end result of the desired sound.

This was always intended to be a multi-layered sound, complex arrangements, lots going on. 

You may not like this style of production, but it's not a simple case of 'they got it wrong, they over produced it'. 

I'm a fan of the production and it works on this album in general.  Not a fan of the way 'Street of Dreams' turned out, but apart from that the sound is great.

Sorry sounds amazing - a cross between Use Your Illusions and early Pink Floyd.

Complex arrangements is Queen and Yes. Chinese Democracy is pretty simple musically speaking.
I see Chinese Democracy simply as "Axl doing the mid/late 90s". There's nothing on CD I haven't heard on a Korn or Rob Zombie or Foo Fighters record.
I don't like CD because there's similar not really any memorable songs. No classics or hummable tracks that stick in your mind like worms in the ears. As far as production goe the production is alright but you can tell nothing is organic on the album, that it was cut and pasted together. It lacks one single standout riff, and in rock music, that's essential. Also, I don't like it because it's a very depressing album.

[sky dog]

Smile and Pet Sounds were cut and pasted....troll somewhere else. TWAT isn't hummable? Get the fuck out of here...IRS rocks as hard as anything on AFD....with actual soulful vocals. You need to get over Easy Wind.

[CherryGarcia]

Smile and Pet Sounds were cut and pasted....troll somewhere else. TWAT isn't hummable? Get the fuck out of here...IRS rocks as hard as anything on AFD....with actual soulful vocals. You need to get over Easy Wind.

No, CD sounds cut and pasted, which it was. Ask Brian May. A lot of the album came out of Axl taking bits and pieces of stuff he liked, parts he liked, and splicing it together. Like Brian May's solo on the original Catcher - it was never actually his solo, but cobbled together piece by piece from multiple takes. CD is the result of around 10 years of recording. Axl's vocals mostly date no later than 1999, and possibly from 1998 (Sean Beaven is credited with recording his vocals on many songs and Beaven didn't work for Axl after 2000). The guitar work has been overdubbed a bunch of times by a bunch of players - from the basic layers of Finck and Tobias, to overdubs by Buckethead, who was in turn overdubbed in places by Bumblefoot, who was supplemented by Richard in turn - to the drums being recorded over note for note by Brian, and also Frank from Josh Freese. I mean on one of the songs you have two drummers playing in different segments (Frank and Brain).

The main rhythmic section of TWAT (the pre-solo part) is basically the same rhythm as Mary Jane's Last Dance. It's alright - nothing particularly memorable.

IRS sounds like a circa 1990 UYI outtake to me and always has - both in terms of quality and the production sound.

[EmilyGNR]

Smile and Pet Sounds were cut and pasted....troll somewhere else. TWAT isn't hummable? Get the fuck out of here...IRS rocks as hard as anything on AFD....with actual soulful vocals. You need to get over Easy Wind.

No, CD sounds cut and pasted, which it was. Ask Brian May. A lot of the album came out of Axl taking bits and pieces of stuff he liked, parts he liked, and splicing it together. Like Brian May's solo on the original Catcher - it was never actually his solo, but cobbled together piece by piece from multiple takes. CD is the result of around 10 years of recording. Axl's vocals mostly date no later than 1999, and possibly from 1998 (Sean Beaven is credited with recording his vocals on many songs and Beaven didn't work for Axl after 2000). The guitar work has been overdubbed a bunch of times by a bunch of players - from the basic layers of Finck and Tobias, to overdubs by Buckethead, who was in turn overdubbed in places by Bumblefoot, who was supplemented by Richard in turn - to the drums being recorded over note for note by Brian, and also Frank from Josh Freese. I mean on one of the songs you have two drummers playing in different segments (Frank and Brain).

The main rhythmic section of TWAT (the pre-solo part) is basically the same rhythm as Mary Jane's Last Dance. It's alright - nothing particularly memorable.

IRS sounds like a circa 1990 UYI outtake to me and always has - both in terms of quality and the production sound.

Interesting, so you are able to determine a quality cut and paste from an inferior cut and paste soley by listening to it? A great deal of various recordings are assembled the exact same way-cut and pasted.

You may not like the album, but  it sounds as if you are attempting to justify this by assembling and compiling a hodge-podge of details that you copy pasted offline.

I've found the album sounds vastly different, as do most all albums- if you have a quality stereo system, the intricacies and layers are not well defined through an inferior sound system.

[CherryGarcia]

Smile and Pet Sounds were cut and pasted....troll somewhere else. TWAT isn't hummable? Get the fuck out of here...IRS rocks as hard as anything on AFD....with actual soulful vocals. You need to get over Easy Wind.

No, CD sounds cut and pasted, which it was. Ask Brian May. A lot of the album came out of Axl taking bits and pieces of stuff he liked, parts he liked, and splicing it together. Like Brian May's solo on the original Catcher - it was never actually his solo, but cobbled together piece by piece from multiple takes. CD is the result of around 10 years of recording. Axl's vocals mostly date no later than 1999, and possibly from 1998 (Sean Beaven is credited with recording his vocals on many songs and Beaven didn't work for Axl after 2000). The guitar work has been overdubbed a bunch of times by a bunch of players - from the basic layers of Finck and Tobias, to overdubs by Buckethead, who was in turn overdubbed in places by Bumblefoot, who was supplemented by Richard in turn - to the drums being recorded over note for note by Brian, and also Frank from Josh Freese. I mean on one of the songs you have two drummers playing in different segments (Frank and Brain).

The main rhythmic section of TWAT (the pre-solo part) is basically the same rhythm as Mary Jane's Last Dance. It's alright - nothing particularly memorable.

IRS sounds like a circa 1990 UYI outtake to me and always has - both in terms of quality and the production sound.

Interesting, so you are able to determine a quality cut and paste from an inferior cut and paste soley by listening to it? A great deal of various recordings are assembled the exact same way-cut and pasted.

You may not like the album, but  it sounds as if you are attempting to justify this by assembling and compiling a hodge-podge of details that you copy pasted offline.

I've found the album sounds vastly different, as do most all albums- if you have a quality stereo system, the intricacies and layers are not well defined through an inferior sound system.

The album - to my subjective ears - sounds inorganic. There are albums and songs which are cut and pastes but don't sound it, and there are many records done using "cut and paste" that I enjoy, like Physical Graffiti. The Use Your Illusion records have a similar problem to Chinese Democracy but to a lesser degree - they just sound too polished. Out of all Guns N' Roses' albums, The Spaghetti Incident is the best solely in terms of production values and sound.

No, you can really tell in places where there's an overdub. Like all the guitar work Bumblefoot overdubbed - it sounds out of place with the rest of the music, utilizing an utterly different guitar tone and feel. It sounds out of place. Due to the album's own credits, we know Axl recorded most of his vocals before the year 2000. I don't mind new vocals being put on old music - The album Tattoo You by the Stones is a product of that exact idea - but something about old vocals on "new" music bothers me. It speaks of laziness to me.

When one has to say "On a quality stereo system the album sounds ten times better", you're reaching for a defense. It's that old argument many had when it first came out - "it needs to grow on you". I have my Ipod, and on that system I listen to a lot of records, some simple, and some complex - I listen to Pink Floyd, Yes, Rush, all of whom have records a lot more layered and intricate than Chinese Democracy and I've never had a problem with any of those records. If you need a "superior recording system" for the album to sound good, that's a problem with the album.

[EmilyGNR]

Smile and Pet Sounds were cut and pasted....troll somewhere else. TWAT isn't hummable? Get the fuck out of here...IRS rocks as hard as anything on AFD....with actual soulful vocals. You need to get over Easy Wind.

No, CD sounds cut and pasted, which it was. Ask Brian May. A lot of the album came out of Axl taking bits and pieces of stuff he liked, parts he liked, and splicing it together. Like Brian May's solo on the original Catcher - it was never actually his solo, but cobbled together piece by piece from multiple takes. CD is the result of around 10 years of recording. Axl's vocals mostly date no later than 1999, and possibly from 1998 (Sean Beaven is credited with recording his vocals on many songs and Beaven didn't work for Axl after 2000). The guitar work has been overdubbed a bunch of times by a bunch of players - from the basic layers of Finck and Tobias, to overdubs by Buckethead, who was in turn overdubbed in places by Bumblefoot, who was supplemented by Richard in turn - to the drums being recorded over note for note by Brian, and also Frank from Josh Freese. I mean on one of the songs you have two drummers playing in different segments (Frank and Brain).

The main rhythmic section of TWAT (the pre-solo part) is basically the same rhythm as Mary Jane's Last Dance. It's alright - nothing particularly memorable.

IRS sounds like a circa 1990 UYI outtake to me and always has - both in terms of quality and the production sound.

Interesting, so you are able to determine a quality cut and paste from an inferior cut and paste soley by listening to it? A great deal of various recordings are assembled the exact same way-cut and pasted.

You may not like the album, but  it sounds as if you are attempting to justify this by assembling and compiling a hodge-podge of details that you copy pasted offline.

I've found the album sounds vastly different, as do most all albums- if you have a quality stereo system, the intricacies and layers are not well defined through an inferior sound system.

The album - to my subjective ears - sounds inorganic. There are albums and songs which are cut and pastes but don't sound it, and there are many records done using "cut and paste" that I enjoy, like Physical Graffiti. The Use Your Illusion records have a similar problem to Chinese Democracy but to a lesser degree - they just sound too polished. Out of all Guns N' Roses' albums, The Spaghetti Incident is the best solely in terms of production values and sound.

No, you can really tell in places where there's an overdub. Like all the guitar work Bumblefoot overdubbed - it sounds out of place with the rest of the music, utilizing an utterly different guitar tone and feel. It sounds out of place. Due to the album's own credits, we know Axl recorded most of his vocals before the year 2000. I don't mind new vocals being put on old music - The album Tattoo You by the Stones is a product of that exact idea - but something about old vocals on "new" music bothers me. It speaks of laziness to me.

When one has to say "On a quality stereo system the album sounds ten times better", you're reaching for a defense. It's that old argument many had when it first came out - "it needs to grow on you". I have my Ipod, and on that system I listen to a lot of records, some simple, and some complex - I listen to Pink Floyd, Yes, Rush, all of whom have records a lot more layered and intricate than Chinese Democracy and I've never had a problem with any of those records. If you need a "superior recording system" for the album to sound good, that's a problem with the album.

Why is using a vocal take you like considered laziness?

I'm not reaching for a defense at all, I'm making the distinction that an album sounds better on a quality system then played through some cheap computer speakers, that is a fact-not a defense in the least, and I'm sure there are several other audiophiles here that will agree- it isn't honestly debatable. A quality stereo sounds better than some ipod.Unless you spend a lot of money on the gadget that will allow you to take the digital feed from an Ipod and send it to a DAC and you are using lossless files (which most wouldn't on an Ipod).

I've also picked up nuances I hadn't noticed before by listening through headphones.

I think as it ages, more people will grow to appreciate it, but you seem determined to try and "prove" that you are justified in not liking it, and attempting to explain why you don't like some of the choices made- Which is probably why you started this topic in the first place, if you were honest.

Won't spoil it for me at all, I enjoy the time, talent and musicianship it took to craft this album. It is truly a masterpiece.

[Virolec]

Why do I love it?  It's just a really good record, that's all. 

I listened to it pretty much all the time for ages after it first came out, but then left it alone for a few years as my tastes changed away from rock music.  I've come back to it over the last year or so, though, and listen to it fairly often.  I think it's one of those records that works better as an album than it does in terms of individual songs, which is something I've always liked.

I think it's one of those albums that we're able to appreciate more sensibly as time goes on.  Take out all the controversy, the amount of time it took it to get done, the personnel changes, the lack of certain band members (not an issue for everyone, but it is for a lot outside the fan bubble)... but also the "they're (? he's) back!" buzz around the record and let it just stand on its own merits, and I think it's a very, very good album. 

It's not flawless (neither are the older albums, in my opinion), but the good in it far, far outweighs the bad.  I mean... I always skip over Sorry, but even so, that's not as bad as the solo in There Was A Time is good, for instance.  There's some great moments on that album, and for all its flaws has songs on it that are easily the equal of the old classics.  I'm happy enough to ignore the weaker moments, and appreciate the better ones - they're good enough to keep me coming back to it fairly often.

[D-GenerationX]

Because Axl Rose had been my favorite musical artist for the 20 years, so I was pretty much going to like it regardless of what it was.  Even if it took some rationalizing.

If you find that harsh, I think you need to ask yourself how much you'd have been all about it if this was a debut album from a truly new band. 

Were you just that blown away by the material on its own merit?  Or, like me, are you such a big Axl fan that it was going to take a Yoko Ono and the Plastic Ono Band caliber flame out to turn you against it?

[14 Yrs Of Silence]

The only song I feel is overproduced to its detriment is Catcher.  And perhaps overproduced in the wrong word.  But too many layers distract from the melody.  I prefer the demo leak as well, however its of poor sound quality.

[D-GenerationX]

The only song I feel is overproduced to its detriment is Catcher.  And perhaps overproduced in the wrong word.  But too many layers distract from the melody.  I prefer the demo leak as well, however its of poor sound quality.

Totally agree.

There is a good song under that final mix, but Ron just butchers it.

[LongGoneDay]

I don?t love Chinese Democracy, unfortunately.
Wish I did. I?ve tried. It just isn?t there for me.

If Chinese Democracy isn?t overproduced, no record is or ever will be.
Doesn?t mean people can?t enjoy the results. I just happen to be one of the many that don?t.

Bob Erin put it better than I ever could when he said "what I heard was something that he had painted over too many times. So, by the time I heard it, the original content was lost and it was just a highly produced piece of something?.

I think there was some real potential on songs like Street of Dreams, Catcher in the Rye, Better, and Prostitute.
And by and large those songs came out pretty well, but not as well as they could have, to my ears.
I prefer the live versions I?ve heard and some of the demos.

Then there are other songs like Rhiad, Scraped etc, where there just wasn?t much to begin with, and they were just labored over and tweaked to death, when they should have either been scrapped altogether, or gutted, rather than adding more sprinkles.

Chinese has an epic intro to an anything but epic song. Madagascar sounds great once or twice, but then I feel like I?m OD?ing on samples that date the song, or at least decrease it?s shelf life for me.

Musically, it?s not my bag, but I didn?t expect it to be, as it?s a host of different players, and not the Guns N? Roses I grew up on.
I knew that going in, and was fine with it.
I was interested primarily if not exclusively because of Axl.

I feel like he has his moments, but overall, lyrically, Axl took a few giant steps back from UYI to Chinese.
A lot of the lyrics sound uninspired, and that is what surprised, and bothers me most.
The last song I had heard, Oh My God, was a song that musically alone isn?t anything special in my opinion, but Axl?s lyrics/vocals elevated it to heights no one else could.

Musically, Chinese does little for me, outside of Street of Dreams and Catcher, but it doesn?t really bother me either(outside of Shackler?s Revenge).
I think deeper lyrics would have gone a long way, and changed the way I feel about the overall record greatly.

[The Wight Gunner]

Because when its cranked up in the car, all the mirrors shake rendering them useless.

[Wooody]

I think I read somewhere in 2007 that Axl was laying vocals for Street of Dreams. So I dont think the vocals were recorded before 2000 like some poster said.

[D-GenerationX]

I think I read somewhere in 2007 that Axl was laying vocals for Street of Dreams. So I dont think the vocals were recorded before 2000 like some poster said.

The vocal tracks for TWAT, IRS, and 'Catcher' are from 1999.

They never changed.

[draguns]

When I first heard CD, I liked it because Axl was back. I gave it a favorable  review on here. I shouldn't have done that. I was too excited and wasn't objective in my assessment of it. Looking back at it now, it just doesn't stand the test of time for me.

For me, I listen to the album much less now than when I first bought it. There are some good songs, but not great songs.  For me, the good songs are: Better, Street of Dreams, TWAT, IRS, and CD. These are the songs I'll listen to the most. Prostitute and Madagascar are ok. When Madagascar came out I really liked it. Now I'm not into it. Ditto for If the World. The studio version of This I Love is horrendous since it has that Andrew Lloyd Weber feel, but the solo is good. The live version is much better.  Sorry is ok, but the lyrics are bad. Shackler's  Revenge would have been a great NIN song. It's ok as a GNR song.  Catcher in the Rye is ok. Scraped  and Rhiad ranks up with My World as the worst GNR song ever created.   

[D-GenerationX]

Given my lifelong fandom, I obviously got a lot of questions on this when it came out.  I trust you all did too.

3 things most commonly said by me :

- It's good, not great
- It doesn't sound much like Guns N' Roses, but there are still some solid songs on there
- It was not worth the absurd delay, but to be fair, nothing possibly could be

I felt that walked a nice line between being an obviously biased fan and still trying to keep things somewhat real world.

Compared to some other things I heard said on some of the forums :

- I think its seriously the best rock record of the past 10 years
- For me, I think its the best GNR album
- This was the best line-up the band ever had

Look, I'm sorry that I'm not sorry...but I find all of those statements laughable.  They sound so forced.  Like you feel some duty to be that over the top about it to try and justify how long you waited and how "loyal" you stayed.  I do not consider them serious statements. 

Are there some people that truly, deeply, believe them with their heart and soul?  I suppose anything is possible.  But, on balance, I feel there are fewer people that truly felt that way than there were people who felt this was the role they had to play.

[EmilyGNR]

Given my lifelong fandom, I obviously got a lot of questions on this when it came out.  I trust you all did too.

3 things most commonly said by me :

- It's good, not great
- It doesn't sound much like Guns N' Roses, but there are still some solid songs on there
- It was not worth the absurd delay, but to be fair, nothing possibly could be

I felt that walked a nice line between being an obviously biased fan and still trying to keep things somewhat real world.

Compared to some other things I heard said on some of the forums :

- I think its seriously the best rock record of the past 10 years
- For me, I think its the best GNR album
- This was the best line-up the band ever had

Look, I'm sorry that I'm not sorry...but I find all of those statements laughable.  They sound so forced.  Like you feel some duty to be that over the top about it to try and justify how long you waited and how "loyal" you stayed.  I do not consider them serious statements. 

Are there some people that truly, deeply, believe them with their heart and soul?  I suppose anything is possible.  But, on balance, I feel there are fewer people that truly felt that way than there were people who felt this was the role they had to play.

Why would they feel it was necessary to play some role? There honestly is not some big conspiracy theory, nor people hired to 'play roles' 

If some people truly feel that way, what is the issue? It is all subjective anyway.

I think it was easily the best album of 2008, and my favorite GNR album changes regularly.

[D-GenerationX]

Why would they feel it was necessary to play some role?

Because I think some people are vehemently opposed to conceding "Axl's vision" post 2000 does not stand up to the past.  They'd rather clew glass.

You don't think some see things that way?

If some people truly feel that way, what is the issue? It is all subjective anyway.

I think it was easily the best album of 2008, and my favorite GNR album changes regularly.

The guys who say "its the best rock record in the past 10 years", yes, I roll my eyes.  But, totally subjective, as you say.  And can't be proven or disproven.  Fair enough.

But best of their albums?  Over 'Appetite', one of the most celebrated rock albums of our lifetimes?

But best line-up?  Not that line-up that made us all lifelong fans 25 years ago?

Again, I tend to see people that say things like that feel they are being bad fans in some way to say what is going on right now is anything but stupendous.