Axl and Slash friends again?

[estebanf]

Very interesting.

I am also such an Axl fan, I'm pretty much going to be interested in anything he's doing.

And, I must admit, I like Slash's solo stuff, but it does not blow me away.  I hear all his stuff with Myles and just can't help but to compare it to Axl.  

Myles loses.

Since this is more about artistics, than character and such, I'll chime in:

I liked 5 o'clock somewhere.  I didn't love it.  It isn't an all time classic.  It's not in my rotation of "regular" CD's in my car. Nothing from it is in any of my playlists.  But it was alright and I listened to it quite a bit right after it came out.

All his other solo stuff (including the stuff with Myles)? Mired in sameness.  I just don't hear any musical progression.  I hear a guy...a guy who's ability I respect, FYI....being...well...lazy. Maybe lazy's not the right word.  But at least "not pushing himself, creatively, and taking the easy way out".

I also liked Contraband, with VR.  I think that was probably the best stuff he's put out since GnR.  And I suspect it was because he was being pushed, creatively, at least a little bit.  There's still an awful lot of "safe" in there...but the solo work in Slither is excellent, as is some of his other contributions to that album.  But, there is also some "sameness" in there (and, to be clear, I'm not saying "sameness" in the sense of signature style...Slash's stuff is always going to sound like Slash's stuff).

Which makes the prospect of a reunion....interesting...artistically.  Because I think part of pushing Slash, creatively....and getting him a little bit out of his comfort zone and more toward the experimental fringe...is going to create some conflict.  And I think pushing Axl a bit back to a more traditional blues based sound, and away from a more experimental fringe, (and I think that's necessary to get all the players on the same page, creatively) is going to create conflict. That's pretty much what we saw with UYI, I think...a "perfect combination" of Slash's more blues based, traditional rock sound and Axl's experimentation.  And it worked so well.....the band broke up and pretty much hated each other for the better part of 20 years.

I agree with you. Great post.

But... what if the one who should be pushed is Axl? do we know how far Axl can go artistically if he's pushed? I think the 2000/2004 lineup, with guys like Brain, Bucket and Robin pushed him the way he needed. CD, IMO, is the most non-axlish GNR album (which is ironic considering a lot of fans believe this is ''Axl's Rose Project''...).

[estebanf]

Weiland is not only a great songwritter but an amazing performer. The best things we got from Slash since he freely abandoned GNR were made in VR with Scott.

Agree, in terms of VR being his best stuff since GnR.

I'm not sure it was Weiland's influence (if it was...then we are in trouble...since you can see what VR did there), entirely, or just the group collaborative that actually challenged him a little bit.  Whatever it is, he hasn't really managed it much before (but post GnR) or after.

Im not a VR expert, but I am pretty sure after ''contraband'', Slash made sure not letting Weiland have the reins of the band creative-wise so much. And we all agree ''Libertad'' was a huge regression...

[C0ma]

Slash still writes good music, what as been lacking is the lyrical content. IMO If Axl were given a crack at Fall to Pieces or Anastasia (as isolated examples) they would be hit GnR songs. You also have to wonder over the past several years how many ideas of Slash's have floundered because Myles or Scott weren't the right people to complete those songs... but at the same time... if my Aunt had a dick she'd be my uncle... so it's all conjecture until they start writing again (if they ever do).

See..there we disagree.

There is some VR stuff on Contraband that I would agree is relatively well written.

There is some stuff on 5 o'clock somewhere that I would also agree is relatively well written.

Most of the rest?  I think it's very safe, very similar, very...well...boring...musically.  It's...again I go back to lazy, but I'm not sure that's the most appropriate word.  It's just not all that interesting, to me. 

I think he's probably capable of more (and the VR stuff shows glimmers of that) but, IMHO, he doesn't channel it all that well, on his own.

I think while there might be some slight differences in how we get there, I think our final point is the same... Slash has been missing something... and I think that gap gets filled by Axl (and maybe more importantly Izzy if he were to get involved with songwriting with the group)... They have been the missing piece. I think some of the 'safe' stuff gets the kick in the ass it needs but a tighter, stronger writing group.

To draw a parallel to newer GnR lineups, what has Robin written without Axl over the years? If he was such a ground breaking songwriter and collaborator where is that output? Maybe Axl pulled it out of him better than anyone else?
 

[pilferk]

I agree with you. Great post.

But... what if the one who should be pushed is Axl? do we know how far Axl can go artistically if he's pushed? I think the 2000/2004 lineup, with guys like Brain, Bucket and Robin pushed him the way he needed. CD, IMO, is the most non-axlish GNR album (which is ironic considering a lot of fans believe this is ''Axl's Rose Project''...).

I agree with that, to a large extent.  But Axl, IMHO, needs more "reigning in" than "pushing", to work with Slash.  By that, I mean he needs (and maybe "needs" isnt' the right word, because I like a LOT of what CD is is the result of him riding that edge) someone who can get him back from the experimental, "what if", edge and his penchant for perfectionism over productivity.  And that, just like the flip side with Slash, creates conflict.

I think the '06 line up was uniquely proficient at creating within Axl's creative confines.  I don't think they pushed him, per se.  I think they enabled him in the sense that they let him ride that experimental edge, and were willing to go along for the ride, almost completely.  They completely went with Axl's "flow" and that got us CD.  I think you MIGHT be able to find replacements for DJ and BBF who could do that (or bring back some of the previous membership), too.  I'm not sure if DJ and BBF could have done it, either.  We'll likely never really know.

I don't think Slash is 100% capable of doing that AND I don't think it would do justice to his creativity if he was.

And so any collaboration is going to breed conflict.  And how well that conflict is resolved is, largely, going to be based on some inherent trust. The question is...how much of that is going to be there to draw upon.  There wasn't enough during the UYI sessions.....

[C0ma]

Weiland is not only a great songwritter but an amazing performer. The best things we got from Slash since he freely abandoned GNR were made in VR with Scott.

Agree, in terms of VR being his best stuff since GnR.

I'm not sure it was Weiland's influence (if it was...then we are in trouble...since you can see what VR did there), entirely, or just the group collaborative that actually challenged him a little bit.  Whatever it is, he hasn't really managed it much before (but post GnR) or after.

Im not a VR expert, but I am pretty sure after ''contraband'', Slash made sure not letting Weiland have the reins of the band creative-wise so much. And we all agree ''Libertad'' was a huge regression...

How much of the reigns did he have for Contraband? Wasn't a significant amount of that material already written before the 'Project' was out looking for singer?

[pilferk]

Im not a VR expert, but I am pretty sure after ''contraband'', Slash made sure not letting Weiland have the reins of the band creative-wise so much. And we all agree ''Libertad'' was a huge regression...

And therein lies the problem.

Slash seems to function better, creatively, when "challenged" by another strong creative presence (or, more than one).

But...where possible, he does everything he can to eliminate those challenges, historically.

I'm spitballing here, a lot, but it seems to me Slash doesn't like the conflict that creative process creates, even though it seems to bring out his best, creatively.

But that's just MHO.  

[pilferk]

I think while there might be some slight differences in how we get there, I think our final point is the same... Slash has been missing something... and I think that gap gets filled by Axl (and maybe more importantly Izzy if he were to get involved with songwriting with the group)... They have been the missing piece. I think some of the 'safe' stuff gets the kick in the ass it needs but a tighter, stronger writing group.

To draw a parallel to newer GnR lineups, what has Robin written without Axl over the years? If he was such a ground breaking songwriter and collaborator where is that output? Maybe Axl pulled it out of him better than anyone else?
 

See my other reply to Estebanf.

The issue is, every time Slash finds himself in a tighter writing group that challenges him and, IMHO, brings out his best...he leaves or otherwise does things to eliminate those "challenges".

Maybe a reunion would be different.  Maybe there are other extenuating factors. Maybe, maybe, maybe.  I'll accept all of those opinions.

But, just looking at history...I wonder....

[pilferk]

How much of the reigns did he have for Contraband? Wasn't a significant amount of that material already written before the 'Project' was out looking for singer?

It depends on who you ask, really.

I think some of that material was "written", but then was tightened up a lot once Weiland came on board.  I also think Weiland brought a bunch of stuff to the table for the final version of Contraband that didn't exist before. 

We'll never know for sure, but too much of that material sounds like it has Weilands influence on it for me to believe it was all written, assembled, in final form, and waiting for lyrics.

I think SOME of it was.  I think a lot more was in a much more raw form.

And, for Libertad....for one reason or another...I hear a lot less of Weilands style on it.  I'll agree with estebanf on that front.  I don't know if that's because his influence was minimized (as some have reported) as part of a power struggle, if he took much less of an interest in it given his backslide into addiction (the "oh, yeah, that's fine" ambivalence),if he was simply less engaged at that point given everything going on, or if he had full influence on the album and he just made a big old stinky poop on the album that sounds like nothing he'd ever had influence on, before.

All of those are possible, obviously, as well as some other options.

But, by hook or by crook, Slash found himself, once again, without the other creative influence challenging him...and his material suffered for it.

[JAEBALL]

Slash still writes good music, what as been lacking is the lyrical content. IMO If Axl were given a crack at Fall to Pieces or Anastasia (as isolated examples) they would be hit GnR songs. You also have to wonder over the past several years how many ideas of Slash's have floundered because Myles or Scott weren't the right people to complete those songs... but at the same time... if my Aunt had a dick she'd be my uncle... so it's all conjecture until they start writing again (if they ever do).

See..there we disagree.

There is some VR stuff on Contraband that I would agree is relatively well written.

There is some stuff on 5 o'clock somewhere that I would also agree is relatively well written.

Most of the rest?  I think it's very safe, very similar, very...well...boring...musically.  It's...again I go back to lazy, but I'm not sure that's the most appropriate word.  It's just not all that interesting, to me. 

I think he's probably capable of more (and the VR stuff shows glimmers of that) but, IMHO, he doesn't channel it all that well, on his own.

I think while there might be some slight differences in how we get there, I think our final point is the same... Slash has been missing something... and I think that gap gets filled by Axl (and maybe more importantly Izzy if he were to get involved with songwriting with the group)... They have been the missing piece. I think some of the 'safe' stuff gets the kick in the ass it needs but a tighter, stronger writing group.

To draw a parallel to newer GnR lineups, what has Robin written without Axl over the years? If he was such a ground breaking songwriter and collaborator where is that output? Maybe Axl pulled it out of him better than anyone else?
 

Oh you mean the legendary Robin Finck doesn't have groundbreaking material of his own away from Axl?

Shit like this drives me crazy.. people like Esteban (nothing against the guy ) will cry about how evil and overrated Slash is for doing nothing since leaving GNR...

but oh Robin... he is a magical musician !!! all because he was part of the epic saga that was Chinese Democracy

Songs like Anastasia and Bent To Fly would be amazing with Axl on vocals... all of the BORING songs Slash has done would be on everybody's play lists here with Axl at the helm

leave the Slash bashing at the door... if you hate the guy so much... don't rock out to 90 percent of the songs at the next GNR show... go to the bathroom for those...


If Chinese Democracy is the end all and be all for you... great... I anticipate you will get the sequel eventually ... I personally find it hard to believe that Slash will be RUINING Guns N Roses for you with his supposed return.

[JAEBALL]

How much of the reigns did he have for Contraband? Wasn't a significant amount of that material already written before the 'Project' was out looking for singer?

It depends on who you ask, really.

I think some of that material was "written", but then was tightened up a lot once Weiland came on board.  I also think Weiland brought a bunch of stuff to the table for the final version of Contraband that didn't exist before. 

We'll never know for sure, but too much of that material sounds like it has Weilands influence on it for me to believe it was all written, assembled, in final form, and waiting for lyrics.

I think SOME of it was.  I think a lot more was in a much more raw form.

And, for Libertad....for one reason or another...I hear a lot less of Weilands style on it.  I'll agree with estebanf on that front.  I don't know if that's because his influence was minimized (as some have reported) as part of a power struggle, if he took much less of an interest in it given his backslide into addiction (the "oh, yeah, that's fine" ambivalence),if he was simply less engaged at that point given everything going on, or if he had full influence on the album and he just made a big old stinky poop on the album that sounds like nothing he'd ever had influence on, before.

All of those are possible, obviously, as well as some other options.

But, by hook or by crook, Slash found himself, once again, without the other creative influence challenging him...and his material suffered for it.

Contraband was amazing, one of my favorite records ever. libertad.. was a disappointment. Wish there had been a third record.

Do we blame Slash for Libertad? I don't know. I tend to think a record is a collaborative effort.

[pilferk]

Oh you mean the legendary Robin Finck doesn't have groundbreaking material of his own away from Axl?

Shit like this drives me crazy.. people like Esteban (nothing against the guy ) will cry about how evil and overrated Slash is for doing nothing since leaving GNR...

But, honestly, he hasn't.  Contraband being the noteable exception.  Has he?

but oh Robin... he is a magical musician !!! all because he was part of the epic saga that was Chinese Democracy

Songs like Anastasia and Bent To Fly would be amazing with Axl on vocals... all of the BORING songs Slash has done would be on everybody's play lists here with Axl at the helm

I disagree.  Those songs, to me, aren't that great.  They're OK..and they're among the best things he's done outside VR.

If you like them, great!

leave the Slash bashing at the door... if you hate the guy so much... don't rock out to 90 percent of the songs at the next GNR show... go to the bathroom for those...

See, nobody is bashing Slash in this conversation.  We're having a frank conversation about his material and his creativity and his creative output.

The point is: I LOVE the stuff he did with GnR.  And I think he's capable of that kind of creativity, still.  But....he's not doing it. For whatever reason.

If Chinese Democracy is the end all and be all for you... great... I anticipate you will get the sequel eventually ... I personally find it hard to believe that Slash will be RUINING Guns N Roses for you with his supposed return.

Not saying he'd ruin GnR. At all.  I'm saying there's conflict in the creative process that seems to bring out the best in Slash.  And he has, in the past, done things to eliminate or minimize that conflict.  So it would be interesting to see how that goes in any potential reunion.  If you disagree with that, by all means, make the case. I'm more than interested in having that discussion.

[LongGoneDay]

Weiland is not only a great songwritter but an amazing performer. The best things we got from Slash since he freely abandoned GNR were made in VR with Scott.

Agree, in terms of VR being his best stuff since GnR.

I'm not sure it was Weiland's influence (if it was...then we are in trouble...since you can see what VR did there), entirely, or just the group collaborative that actually challenged him a little bit.  Whatever it is, he hasn't really managed it much before (but post GnR) or after.

Im not a VR expert, but I am pretty sure after ''contraband'', Slash made sure not letting Weiland have the reins of the band creative-wise so much. And we all agree ''Libertad'' was a huge regression...

Intersting.
I thought it was fairly obvious that the opposite was true.

Slash stepped out of the spotlight on the sophomore album.
Libertad is when Weiland took the reigns. It has his fingerprints all over it.

[ckgent]

Show rumours have started. People in Australia are saying the appetite line up have stepped in have saved sound wave festival & will perform at it.

Article here:

http://www.alternativenation.net/guns-n-roses-first-rumored-reunion-show/

[LongGoneDay]

and for the record, I think Libertad is a solid rock n' roll album. Never understood the disdain for it.

[pilferk]

Contraband was amazing, one of my favorite records ever. libertad.. was a disappointment. Wish there had been a third record.

Do we blame Slash for Libertad? I don't know. I tend to think a record is a collaborative effort.

Contraband was very good. I agree.

I think you have to at least partially blame Slash because, as you said, it's a collaborative effort.  You have to wonder why the more obvious Weiland style from Contraband was lacking on Libertad.  Again, there could be lots of reasons for that.

But the rest of the musical creative suffered, too.  Not JUST the vocals.  It sounded...again, I go back to lazy, though I still don't think that's the best word. I just struggle to find the better one.

Maybe they were rushed after the tour. Maybe Weilands drug habit prevented them from being creative, or putting in the time they needed, given his level of distraction. I don't know.

[pilferk]

Intersting.
I thought it was fairly obvious that the opposite was true.

Slash stepped out of the spotlight on the sophomore album.
Libertad is when Weiland took the reigns. It has his fingerprints all over it.

See, I disagree.  I struggle to hear his influence, at all.  But then, it's so muddy, I struggle to hear a strong influence from Slash, either.  It's sort of a mess.

[pilferk]

About one month ago the Soundwave festival promoter dismissed the possibility of an appearance of the AFD lineup when asked via Twitter:
https://twitter.com/iamnotshouting/status/625220913466740736
Q: I've honestly though it might be gunners with slash
A: No. If I ever did GnR with Slash, Izzy & Duff that would be it for me. I'd be done.

Their headliners have been booked for a while and will be announced at the beginning of September I think.

The Soundwave rumors have proven to be untrue, it seems.

[LongGoneDay]

I think the big question is, can anyone push Axl these days.
There is a long list of players ranging in styles and talent that have failed to do so over the past 20+ years.

I think the songs on Chinese lack any kind of structure, and the album overall is a mess. The songs don?t sound like they were recorded by the same people, regardless of the band name.
Of all the people that came and went during those sessions, I don?t think there was a particularly great songsmith in the lot.
They never found another Izzy.

I personally enjoy Izzy?s solo records, but I understand people think they are lacking in creativity.
One thing that can?t really be argued, is that they are well structured.

Axl is a great lyricist and vocalist. He and Izzy alone should be able to make an interesting record.
Slash is one of the few guitarists left whose able to come up with a riff you haven?t heard before, and his solos are typically the highlight of the song.

Put those guys in a room together, and if they don?t kill each other or themselves, I think they just may come up with some interesting songs.

[pilferk]

I think the big question is, can anyone push Axl these days.
There is a long list of players ranging in styles and talent that have failed to do so over the past 20+ years.

It's a good question.  Again, there would be conflict in the compromise.  And that's my big "hmmmmm".  Could any budding reconciliation bear that kind of conflict....could any of the parties not collapse under the weight of it?  I think that's the million dollar question.

And yet, I think to get the kind of creative output that would service any sort of reunion...as anything other than a touring AFD band....you'd sort of have to have it.

I think the songs on Chinese lack any kind of structure, and the album overall is a mess. The songs don?t sound like they were recorded by the same people, regardless of the band name.
Of all the people that came and went during those sessions, I don?t think there was a particularly great songsmith in the lot.
They never found another Izzy.

I've long said the loss of Izzy was the real death knell of the classic lineup.

I personally enjoy Izzy?s solo records, but I understand people think they are lacking in creativity.
One thing that can?t really be argued, is that they are well structured.

Agreed. 

Axl is a great lyricist and vocalist. He and Izzy alone should be able to make an interesting record.
Slash is one of the few guitarists left whose able to come up with a riff you haven?t heard before, and his solos are typically the highlight of the song.

Put those guys in a room together, and if they don?t kill each other or themselves, I think they just may come up with some interesting songs.

The issue is, I suspect it's a 33%/33%/34% (each other, themselves, interesting songs) split.

[JAEBALL]

Oh you mean the legendary Robin Finck doesn't have groundbreaking material of his own away from Axl?

Shit like this drives me crazy.. people like Esteban (nothing against the guy ) will cry about how evil and overrated Slash is for doing nothing since leaving GNR...

But, honestly, he hasn't.  Contraband being the noteable exception.  Has he?

but oh Robin... he is a magical musician !!! all because he was part of the epic saga that was Chinese Democracy

Songs like Anastasia and Bent To Fly would be amazing with Axl on vocals... all of the BORING songs Slash has done would be on everybody's play lists here with Axl at the helm

I disagree.  Those songs, to me, aren't that great.  They're OK..and they're among the best things he's done outside VR.

If you like them, great!

leave the Slash bashing at the door... if you hate the guy so much... don't rock out to 90 percent of the songs at the next GNR show... go to the bathroom for those...

See, nobody is bashing Slash in this conversation.  We're having a frank conversation about his material and his creativity and his creative output.

The point is: I LOVE the stuff he did with GnR.  And I think he's capable of that kind of creativity, still.  But....he's not doing it. For whatever reason.

If Chinese Democracy is the end all and be all for you... great... I anticipate you will get the sequel eventually ... I personally find it hard to believe that Slash will be RUINING Guns N Roses for you with his supposed return.

Not saying he'd ruin GnR. At all.  I'm saying there's conflict in the creative process that seems to bring out the best in Slash.  And he has, in the past, done things to eliminate or minimize that conflict.  So it would be interesting to see how that goes in any potential reunion.  If you disagree with that, by all means, make the case. I'm more than interested in having that discussion.

Well I was speaking mostly to Esteban who did state that Slash returning would ruin GNR for him.

I of course agree that writing material with Axl and Izzy would bring out the best in him, but I guess I enjoy the Conspirators more than most and am not as critical of their work.