Donald Trump & 2016 Election

[tim_m]

Her is a problem no one is talking about.

Federal Income Taxes and Federal Spending Both Set Records in FY19
https://www.cnsnews.com/article/washington/terence-p-jeffrey/federal-income-taxes-and-federal-spending-both-set-records

...and Washington for the most part does not want to deal with. This includes Trump. He ran on lowering spending.

Senate rejects Paul effort to cut spending
https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/467817-senate-rejects-paul-effort-to-cut-spending

This will bite us in the ass if we ignore it.

We cant afford what we are doing now let alone what the far left candidates such as Sanders and Warren are proposing. Warren cant even explain how she is going to pay for medicare for all. Says we have to wait a few weeks for her to come up with the answer !

Yep Trump is blowing up the debt went deficit.

[pilferk]

It makes sense to me, as long as you’ve called Trump out for the same  ( like you mention). I’ve seen SB mention multiple times how he isn’t fond of how Trump talks.

Please point to where the good Senator has taken issue, specifically ,with Trumps talk of his detractors/"disagree-ers" being Unamerican or Treasonous?

I’m not saying you have or haven’t said anything about Bill.  I don’t care.  I’m telling you it was “bottom line” with me on him and any other president.  I didn’t harp on his negatives day after day, especially when there was a lot of good.  We are never going to have a perfect President.

Irrelevant to the point being made.  

Exactly, and it wasn’t and isn’t a huge concern for me when Democrats behave similarly.  It’s not bottom line  

For you.

I didn't reply to you.  And wasn't addressing you in the initial post.

The good Senator, on the other hand......took issue with someone who disagreed with him for doing it, while giving Trump a pass for doing the same.

Does. not. compute.

[pilferk]

I support Trump's policies,  not so much his style or some of the things he may say at a rally.

That's not an elaboration, it's an excuse.

You called someone out for something that someone you support does constantly, and have never called them out over.

With your statement, above, you're basically saying: It's OK for the guy I like to do it, because I agree with his policy.  If anyone else does it, it's wrong.

If it's wrong, it's wrong.  And either you support and accept the tactic, and those who use it, or you don't.

Policy has nothing to do with it.  In the way you're using it, it's an excuse to practice hypocrisy.

You can read into my post all you want and project whatever your ego wishes, but Ill say it again - policy has everything to do with it. 
 

AKA: "Yes, I'm being a hypocrite.  My excuse is just that it's OK, because I agree with the one person and disagree with the other."

Fair enough, but it sure takes some of the sting out of your objections.....

[pilferk]

https://www.axios.com/house-impeachment-inquiry-vote-390f4fb0-c238-446c-90cb-b56ba8e0ebdd.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100

Well there goes this conservative talking point.

Its about damn time. So far the way the proceedings have been run is a joke.

And, as predicted, Trump and his supporters object to the vote, say it's a partisan witch hunt, etc etc.

Again, it was/is an excuse. 

If they think a vote adds validity to their already issued subpeonas, great.  But, again, it's not strictly necessary.

And the proceedings likely won't change in terms of the way they are run.  They're being run just like they have i the past.

[tim_m]

It makes sense to me, as long as you’ve called Trump out for the same  ( like you mention). I’ve seen SB mention multiple times how he isn’t fond of how Trump talks.

Please point to where the good Senator has taken issue, specifically ,with Trumps talk of his detractors/"disagree-ers" being Unamerican or Treasonous?

I’m not saying you have or haven’t said anything about Bill.  I don’t care.  I’m telling you it was “bottom line” with me on him and any other president.  I didn’t harp on his negatives day after day, especially when there was a lot of good.  We are never going to have a perfect President.

Irrelevant to the point being made.  

Exactly, and it wasn’t and isn’t a huge concern for me when Democrats behave similarly.  It’s not bottom line  

For you.

I didn't reply to you.  And wasn't addressing you in the initial post.

The good Senator, on the other hand......took issue with someone who disagreed with him for doing it, while giving Trump a pass for doing the same.

Does. not. compute.

This is my major issue with Trump supporters in general. They don't condemn or disavow his actions or his rhetoric. They normalize it, i suspect mostly because they can't admit he's just an all around terrible human being. So they have to somehow rationalize and normalize it. Saying oh sometimes i wish he'd just shut up or that he says and does stupid things is a very mild disapproval. It is the equivalent of gently slapping a child's hand after they tried to touch a hot stove and saying don't ever do that again.

[pilferk]

This can be so exhausting with you.  And if we don’t reply to your long winded posts , you’ll say we are “running” or hiding”.  Not at all.  I think it’s probably because we don’t have the time.  The guy doesn’t agree with some democratic policies, so what? Do you actually think you are going to convince him otherwise?

I understand that actual discussion can be tougher than just running in and chanting MAGA slogans.  And if the prose I write is too tough for you to digest, then...by all means...feel free to say so and move on.

But I always chuckle at the "we don't have time" thing.  It's the classic board warrior deflection.  And it's utter shite.  If you have the time to engage and post what you did here, you certainly have the 3 minutes it takes to read a few paragraphs and respond.  Otherwise, why even be here? So you can shout into the void?

Do I think I'm going to convince him otherwise? No.  But if I didn't want to discuss politics and policies....I wouldn't be posting in a political thread.   And I'm surely going to point out the holes in his positions and representations of democratic positions are. Again, that's sort of the point of a discussion, in this context.

And finally....I don't expect "you" to respond at all.  Because I was replying to the good Senator.  If you want to jump in....the water is warm.  But I certainly don't expect it.  And I don't believe I've ever, personally, taken anyone to task for not responding to one of my replies.....I've commented how interesting it is when ALL conservative posting stops when the President is having a bad go.  That I can remember (and at least recently), I've never said someone was "running away" when they don't respond.  You must have me confused with someone else.

1)In my opinion, Obamacare was a disaster. It’s a tough subject, but NOBODY has solved it.

Its a good thing we don't have to rely on your opinion.  Analytics show it was better than the system we had, and that most people approved of it.  It was doing quite well til some Repub governors sabotaged it by refusing to expand Medicaid, and Repub legislatures started to undermine various tenets of it.

It wasn't perfect.  It didn't SOLVE it (largely because they didn't take the next steps: Torte reform and drug prices).  But it made it better. And it would need to be tweaked, going forward, to be better.

And it is a damn site better than what the Repubs have suggested, which is basically the status quo, and to let the industry make scabs of money while fucking the regular joe.

So, again, my point is that when it comes to health care, Dems have done more, and had more success, than Repubs.

As an aside...what was it about Obamacare that you, personally, didn't like?

 
2) its a twist, yes. 

No, it's a lie.  Call it what it is.  A. Lie.

Just as Democrats saying wanting better border control or a wall is “racist”. 

I've never seen a democrat say better border control is racist.  Maybe one exists, but....I've not seen it. Certainly not in one of the Presidential candidates (which is the framing of this discussion).

I've also never seen them say the WALL is racist.  I've seen them say it's based on racist tropes and it's used as a racist dog whistle.  And that Trumps motivation for it is racist.  You can argue the accuracy there, but....there's certainly more evidence those things are true than there is that Democrats want open borders.

AND...in any event, all of that is just one big "whataboutism".

If someone says border control is racist or that a wall is racist....they are lying.  And it's wrong.

Again, framing this as the Good Senators representations, saying Dems want open borders is a lie. Period.

Everything else is an excuse.

Here’s how I see both the border security and also gun control.  Democrats aren’t trying to take our guns away, they just want a better system.  Some conservatives think this will eventually lead to the government having more and more power and putting further restrictions on guns until the people don’t have that right anymore. 

I'm glad we agree that the Republican representation on gun control is fear mongering!

The Constitution limits how much authority the government can impose on gun control.  BUT, banning assault weapons, according to the Supremes, is within government power.

And the stupid thing is that, if I asked you if grenade launchers should be legal...you'd say no.  The federal explosive ordinance laws were long since settled.  An assault weapon ban is no different (again, so says the Supreme Court).

It's the slippery slope logical fallacy in full form.  The courts won't let the federal government take more power than the constitution grants. To say "we shouldn't address a problem because a solution might lead to another thing and another and another and another down the line that might, someday, somehow, cause a violation of the 2nd amendment" is dumb.  And backwards thinking.  Every solution ever devised has some sort of slippery slope associated with it.

With border control, many conservatives just want a better system that forces illegal immigrants to go through a process.  Democrats fear that will be mistreating people, among other things. Both are safety issues and tighter protocol should be in place.

Dems want the same thing.  They just can't agree on what that process is.  That's not open borders, by any stretch.

3) Beto IS a Democrat and his opinions are being heard.

So it is more accurate to say "A DEMOCRAT wants to take away my assault weapons".

Just like it's more accurate to say "A REPUBLICAN wants to grab women by the pussy".

Since Beto is not the only (or even leading) dem candidate, in the context of this disucssion, SB's representation was incorrect (and the Repubs rallying cry is a flat out lie).

His opinions are, if the debates are any indication, being laughed at by the rest of the stage.  Nobody thinks it would work, or pass constitutional muster.  It's a joke position, except as fodder for the Repubs.

4) People can argue taxes all day.  I believe conservatives have better policies when it comes to our money. You can show me all the stats, graphs, etc that you want.  What I know is that I’m middle class.  Trumps tax cuts have helped me pay less in taxes than I ever have, and get a bigger return at end of year.  Not to mention his child tax break.  I have a 2.5 yr old and this has directly affected me positively.  I mean why would I care if the top 1% got a small tax break as well?  The rich still pay the majority of taxes in this country, and also give much more to charity than any other group.  So why would i be concerned about them? 

And belief, in spite of contrary facts, is exactly part of the problem here. Because Repubs USED to be the party of fiscal responsibility, and are living on that reputation, which they've long since abandoned.

Again, we're talking within the context of "Trump is the only choice, there are no dem choices".  Historically, dems have been better for the economy, better for middle class tax relief, better for the deficit. The last 2 Dem administrations have actually SPENT LESS than the Repub administrations (Bush, BushII, and it looks like under Trump unless something changes drastically in the next year).  Clinton even balanced a budget.

You can CHOOSE to believe otherwise, but truth is truth and history is history.  

You may have paid less in taxes.  I'm middle class too.  I paid more.  And we'll all pay a little bit more, every year, until the tax breaks disappear in a few years.

Overall, the numbers say, the average middle class tax cut was about $20 a week. The increase in pricing (much of it based of Trumps tariffs) in consumer goods is costing you about $18+ a week.  A nifty offset. Trumps policies are basically netting you $2-ish a week. That barely gets you something at Starbucks.

You care about the billionaires because, to get them their tax break (which was a heck of lot more significant than the less than $20 a week average break the middle class got) , we are running up a massive debt.  A debt that you, and your kids, will one day have to figure out how to pay off.

And guess how that will happen?  Higher taxes.  

You also care because, if you support ACTUAL Capitalism, thats the way things are suppose to work.  Those that benefit pay in more to support the infrastructure necessary for them to be successful.  Which allows others to harness that infrastructure to eventually be successful.  It is NOT "Give the rich more money to hoard (which is what the stats...I know, you don't believe data....say they're doing with it)".

I have no issue with people making money.  As much as they are capable of.  BUT, I do have an issue with them shirking the fiduciary responsibilities and not paying their equitable share.

[pilferk]

This is my major issue with Trump supporters in general. They don't condemn or disavow his actions or his rhetoric. They normalize it, i suspect mostly because they can't admit he's just an all around terrible human being. So they have to somehow rationalize and normalize it. Saying oh sometimes i wish he'd just shut up or that he says and does stupid things is a very mild disapproval. It is the equivalent of gently slapping a child's hand after they tried to touch a hot stove and saying don't ever do that again.

They just don't seem to care.

And we're seeing that in this discussion.

Which, to me, speaks volumes.

That 5th avenue quote looks more and more apt, every day.  Which, honestly, isn't a good look for them.

[pilferk]

Her is a problem no one is talking about.

Federal Income Taxes and Federal Spending Both Set Records in FY19
https://www.cnsnews.com/article/washington/terence-p-jeffrey/federal-income-taxes-and-federal-spending-both-set-records

...and Washington for the most part does not want to deal with. This includes Trump. He ran on lowering spending.

Senate rejects Paul effort to cut spending
https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/467817-senate-rejects-paul-effort-to-cut-spending

This will bite us in the ass if we ignore it.

We cant afford what we are doing now let alone what the far left candidates such as Sanders and Warren are proposing. Warren cant even explain how she is going to pay for medicare for all. Says we have to wait a few weeks for her to come up with the answer !

Whats funny here is that Repubs said the same thing about Obamacare.

Obama halved the deficit.

We can pay for pretty much anything we want...it's about priorities and the direction of taxation.

You take the premiums most of us pay for insurance and turn them into taxes, force the rich (who largely "self pay") to pay them, too, and enroll EVERYONE in the program (pro-rating those "premiums" like you do any tax based on income below a certain level), and suddenly....you have a shit ton of extra money to pay for healthcare.

Then you reverse the Trump tax cuts for the wealthy.

And, since everyone can now pay their medical bills, costs come down because places don't need to "overcharge" to cover their operating costs on unpaid bills.

Then we need to tackle malpractice insurance costs (and so torte reform) to lower costs more.

And we need to convince drug companies that they need to be good citizens, and not corporate misers.  Or you just TAX THE FUCK out of their profits if their prices are above foreign market prices (aka dumping) and let them pay for a good sized chunk of the offset.

Maybe all thats not enough.  I don't know.  But I can't imagine not being even willing to listen to someone's plan.  Or being asked to wait a couple weeks to hear the details of a plan....from someone you wouldn't need to vote for for A YEAR. And to just dismiss it all out of turn.

I 100% agree the deficit/debt is a problem.  A big one.  And I agree, we need to take on some spending cuts.  We'd likely disagree as to what those are, though.....

[tim_m]

Her is a problem no one is talking about.

Federal Income Taxes and Federal Spending Both Set Records in FY19
https://www.cnsnews.com/article/washington/terence-p-jeffrey/federal-income-taxes-and-federal-spending-both-set-records

...and Washington for the most part does not want to deal with. This includes Trump. He ran on lowering spending.

Senate rejects Paul effort to cut spending
https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/467817-senate-rejects-paul-effort-to-cut-spending

This will bite us in the ass if we ignore it.

We cant afford what we are doing now let alone what the far left candidates such as Sanders and Warren are proposing. Warren cant even explain how she is going to pay for medicare for all. Says we have to wait a few weeks for her to come up with the answer !

Whats funny here is that Repubs said the same thing about Obamacare.

Obama halved the deficit.

We can pay for pretty much anything we want...it's about priorities and the direction of taxation.

You take the premiums most of us pay for insurance and turn them into taxes, force the rich (who largely "self pay") to pay them, too, and enroll EVERYONE in the program (pro-rating those "premiums" like you do any tax based on income below a certain level), and suddenly....you have a shit ton of extra money to pay for healthcare.

Then you reverse the Trump tax cuts for the wealthy.

And, since everyone can now pay their medical bills, costs come down because places don't need to "overcharge" to cover their operating costs on unpaid bills.

Then we need to tackle malpractice insurance costs (and so torte reform) to lower costs more.

And we need to convince drug companies that they need to be good citizens, and not corporate misers.  Or you just TAX THE FUCK out of their profits if their prices are above foreign market prices (aka dumping) and let them pay for a good sized chunk of the offset.

Maybe all thats not enough.  I don't know.  But I can't imagine not being even willing to listen to someone's plan.  Or being asked to wait a couple weeks to hear the details of a plan....from someone you wouldn't need to vote for for A YEAR. And to just dismiss it all out of turn.

I 100% agree the deficit/debt is a problem.  A big one.  And I agree, we need to take on some spending cuts.  We'd likely disagree as to what those are, though.....

*Cough the military cough*

[pilferk]

*Cough the military cough*

I'm sure there are some budgetary economies we can realize in LOTS of places, including there.  This budget proposal, for instance, included equipment and expenditures that the military branches didn't want or request.  And that's not unique to the Trump administration, though it seems this go round they were more than in previous administrations.  And next years preliminary proposal looks to be even more.

But that's generally the fight: The Dems want more into HUD, Education, and Healthcare.  The Repubs want more in military spending.

[tim_m]

The unhinged one is really unhinged this morning firing off some 30 tweets before the witness testimony and has labeled him a never Trumper. That seems to be his brother go to thing, anyone that testifies he now calls a never Trumper.

[damnthehaters]

Twist things how you want Pilferk.  Your mind truly is amazing, in how it sees things.  My favorite...”Obama halved the deficit”..😁.  No point in going back and forth with someone as stubborn as you.  You have all the answers and know how this country should be ran.  Anything positive out of the right, you will find a way to say it’s bad.  And you will find a way to make an excuse or try to convince us anything a Democrat has done, was far superior.  You also try to defend anything you say.  Spare us, please.  Like I mentioned before, I can find an article out there to support pretty much anything.  You say you’re not a “liberal” or possibly even a “democrat”, yet you defend the left any chance you get.  Meanwhile, tear down any conservative ideas or arguments on here, any chance you get.  And let’s not forget the constant belittling and smart ass comments towards people who support our President.  Of all the things you reply to, you failed to respond to that...

To both you and Tim saying how we “normalize” his behavior.  Because we simply believe that there are more important factors/issues to being a good president, doesn’t mean we condone his behavior at times.  Difference is, some people think it’s grounds to get him out of office.  Others don’t.  Simple as that really.  However, liberals think his behavior is far worse than it is.  Conservatives think it’s not as bad as it may be.  Somewhere in between I’m sure.  But since we don’t think Trump needs to go, you guys think we are “Trump boys, Trump lovers, whatever else you want to call it.  Just little smart ass remarks I’m sure you guys get a chuckle from.  What should we call you and your love for Obama for example?  You defend him any chance you get.  Similar?  No, of course not.  Because Obama was perfect, right?  In your minds he was.  Sorry we have different views..🙄

It’s no wonder really how this thread has pretty much turned into 3 liberals taking up the majority of the posts.  There is no middle ground with you guys, and people don’t want to bother.  Exhausting

[tim_m]

Obama was never perfect, he made mistakes as do all presidents, but let's be realistic his actions and public statements pale in comparison to Trump as do they to any past president Republican or Democrat. These are unchartered waters. If you don't condone his actions or statements state you do not with more then that of a slap on the wrist. Things like asking foreign leaders to investigate a possible political opponent for what may turn out to be in exchange for aid already appropriated is more then simply doing something stupid, same with investigating a conspiracy theory. Abandoning the Kurds is more then stupid.

[pilferk]

Twist things how you want Pilferk.  Your mind truly is amazing, in how it sees things.  My favorite...”Obama halved the deficit”..😁. 

He did.

He halved the budget deficit.  And a lot of that was based on the changes to healthcare and Obamacare. Not all of it, but a lot of it.  

That's not subjective.  It's an objective fact.

He added more jobs in his last 3 years that Trump has in his first three.  Also a fact.

The GDP growth under Obama (who conservatives thought was doing a horrible job) was roughly the same his last 3 years compared to Trumps first 3.  Another fact.

Clinton, also, during his administration lowered the budget deficit and balanced the budget.  Under Bush 1, Bush 2, and Trump...the budget deficit has exploded and all 3 of those admins have spent MORE than the dem admins.

And the fact those on the right can't give credit to the LEFT is the actual problem here.  They blindly ignore facts for dogma.  The fact that you think thats "twisting" things speaks volume about the basis for your opinions.  It doesn't say a thing about mine.

Thanks for proving my point so thoroughly. I could not have done it any better if I tried.

FYI: I'm not a dem.  I'm an indie.  I actually DON'T think the dems have all the answers. I think the answers come from compromise...something the Repubs have completely abandoned since Obama was elected.  It started before that, and Harry Reid didn't help, but they became obstructionists with the advent of the Tea Party.  They have zero interest in governing. Case in point: What's their current legislative agenda? Do you know? Does anyone?

The problem is, the Repub party is a fucking mess right now.  They have nothing in terms of viable ideas to solve actual problems.  Look no further than their attempts at healthcare reform.  They only thing they've excelled at is demonizing the left and being obstructionists. They did an awesome job at that.  Oh, and they campaign like nobodies business.  If the dems could figure out a way to be as good at messaging as the Repubs are....jeebus.  But the national repubs, as constituted? All style, no substance. And that goes double for Trump (and his style is awful and icky...it just appeals to a certain segment).

I pine for the days of a true fiscally conservative party.  In CT, that's what you largely get for Repubs: Fiscal conservatives.  And I vote for them in droves.  Because they are not afraid of good policy to make their constituents lives better, and they're good at figuring out inventive ways to pay for it.  They also know the key to success, especially in CT, is working with the opposition, not demonizing them.

One of the real issues is: I point out that the national conservatives, who opine trickle down, have been proven wrong over and over.  It hasn't ever worked.  You can't point to a single example where it has. FACTS tell you that.

But again, you want to ignore data and facts and science and....because you'd rather accept dogma.  It really is that simple.  And I don't work that way.

  And let’s not forget the constant belittling and smart ass comments towards people who support our President.  Of all the things you reply to, you failed to respond to that...

Again, I thought all that was OK?  I mean, you accept it in Trump? So it just doesn't matter and isn't important? Right? I mean: You just got through saying that!

But, quite seriously, I don't do all that much of it.  You don't like that I call people out on their bullshit.  That's not "belittling", its accoutability to your words and your actions.

Edit: Also, I just reviewed the last several pages...and there is zero mention of this. So, there was literally nothing on the topic for me to reply TO.  So unless I totally missed it (always possible!) or you're referring to a long ago zombie post that I missed, I think you're a little confused, here.

To both you and Tim saying how we “normalize” his behavior.  Because we simply believe that there are more important factors/issues to being a good president, doesn’t mean we condone his behavior at times.  Difference is, some people think it’s grounds to get him out of office.  Others don’t.  Simple as that really.  However, liberals think his behavior is far worse than it is.  Conservatives think it’s not as bad as it may be.  Somewhere in between I’m sure.  But since we don’t think Trump needs to go, you guys think we are “Trump boys, Trump lovers, whatever else you want to call it. 

Uh huh.  Thanks for (probably unknowlingly) proving another point.

If you don't speak up, you are normalizing his behavior. That's exactly what tim said and I agreed with. You're accepting it. Silence it tacit support.

Saying "It's not that bad/important" is basically full throated acceptance and....there you go...normalization.

And no...I say you are Trump supporters/lovers, and I call Trump "ya boi" because you excuse him every mistake. Every lie.  Every bit of his bad behavior. No matter how egregious.  No matter how obvious. You refuse to hold him accountable.  And you refuse to acknowledge FACTS and DATA over his (and conservative media's) talking points.  You have no further to go to see that that the good Senators reasoning over why he HAS to vote for Trump, and your defense of it.

Just little smart ass remarks I’m sure you guys get a chuckle from.  What should we call you and your love for Obama for example?  You defend him any chance you get.  Similar?  No, of course not.  Because Obama was perfect, right?  In your minds he was.  Sorry we have different views..🙄

Yean, not so apt.  Why? Because I acknowledged (as did tim) Obama's flaws.  His overuse of drone strikes, for example.  His intrusion into privacy with more widespread use of "non-traditional" monitoring techniques.  Lots of other stuff.  Obama wasn't perfect.  

But I know it's easier to play the "whataboutism" game than it is to look in the mirror and realize you've been fully indoctrinated.

So, since you really seem to like  "whataboutism", lets turn it right back around: Trump supporters would have shit themselves, while yelling themselves horse, if Obama had done one TENTH of what Trump has done.  And you know it.

Conservatives lost their fucking minds, in full view on Fox News, over Obama wearing a TAN FUCKING SUIT??!!  So please, please, please, lets talk more about the double standard being applied here.

So,  yeah...normalizing AND hypocrisy.  It's whats for dinner.

It’s no wonder really how this thread has pretty much turned into 3 liberals taking up the majority of the posts.  There is no middle ground with you guys, and people don’t want to bother.  Exhausting

Yeah, thats it: Conservatives are exhausted.

That explains why you all show up ONLY when something positive happens in the administration...and disappear when its a fully engulfed dumpster fire.

[pilferk]

Obama was never perfect, he made mistakes as do all presidents, but let's be realistic his actions and public statements pale in comparison to Trump as do they to any past president Republican or Democrat. These are unchartered waters. If you don't condone his actions or statements state you do not with more then that of a slap on the wrist. Things like asking foreign leaders to investigate a possible political opponent for what may turn out to be in exchange for aid already appropriated is more then simply doing something stupid, same with investigating a conspiracy theory. Abandoning the Kurds is more then stupid.

OUR GUY CAN DO WHATEVER BECAUSE THIS OTHER GUY WASN'T PERFECT.

What kind of backwards fucking logic is that?

Also, every time someone says "Trump" and then mentions "middle ground", I laugh my ass off. 

[tim_m]

Twist things how you want Pilferk.  Your mind truly is amazing, in how it sees things.  My favorite...”Obama halved the deficit”..😁. 

He did.

He halved the budget deficit.  And a lot of that was based on the changes to healthcare and Obamacare. Not all of it, but a lot of it.  

That's not subjective.  It's an objective fact.

He added more jobs in his last 3 years that Trump has in his first three.  Also a fact.

The GDP growth under Obama (who conservatives thought was doing a horrible job) was roughly the same his last 3 years compared to Trumps first 3.  Another fact.

Clinton, also, during his administration lowered the budget deficit and balanced the budget.  Under Bush 1, Bush 2, and Trump...the budget deficit has exploded and all 3 of those admins have spent MORE than the dem admins.

And the fact those on the right can't give credit to the LEFT is the actual problem here.  They blindly ignore facts for dogma.  The fact that you think thats "twisting" things speaks volume about the basis for your opinions.  It doesn't say a thing about mine.

Thanks for proving my point so thoroughly. I could not have done it any better if I tried.

FYI: I'm not a dem.  I'm an indie.  I actually DON'T think the dems have all the answers. I think the answers come from compromise...something the Repubs have completely abandoned since Obama was elected.  It started before that, and Harry Reid didn't help, but they became obstructionists with the advent of the Tea Party.  They have zero interest in governing. Case in point: What's their current legislative agenda? Do you know? Does anyone?

The problem is, the Repub party is a fucking mess right now.  They have nothing in terms of viable ideas to solve actual problems.  Look no further than their attempts at healthcare reform.  They only thing they've excelled at is demonizing the left and being obstructionists. They did an awesome job at that.  Oh, and they campaign like nobodies business.  If the dems could figure out a way to be as good at messaging as the Repubs are....jeebus.  But the national repubs, as constituted? All style, no substance. And that goes double for Trump (and his style is awful and icky...it just appeals to a certain segment).

I pine for the days of a true fiscally conservative party.  In CT, that's what you largely get for Repubs: Fiscal conservatives.  And I vote for them in droves.  Because they are not afraid of good policy to make their constituents lives better, and they're good at figuring out inventive ways to pay for it.  They also know the key to success, especially in CT, is working with the opposition, not demonizing them.

One of the real issues is: I point out that the national conservatives, who opine trickle down, have been proven wrong over and over.  It hasn't ever worked.  You can't point to a single example where it has. FACTS tell you that.

But again, you want to ignore data and facts and science and....because you'd rather accept dogma.  It really is that simple.  And I don't work that way.

  And let’s not forget the constant belittling and smart ass comments towards people who support our President.  Of all the things you reply to, you failed to respond to that...

Again, I thought all that was OK?  I mean, you accept it in Trump? So it just doesn't matter and isn't important? Right? I mean: You just got through saying that!

But, quite seriously, I don't do all that much of it.  You don't like that I call people out on their bullshit.  That's not "belittling", its accoutability to your words and your actions.

To both you and Tim saying how we “normalize” his behavior.  Because we simply believe that there are more important factors/issues to being a good president, doesn’t mean we condone his behavior at times.  Difference is, some people think it’s grounds to get him out of office.  Others don’t.  Simple as that really.  However, liberals think his behavior is far worse than it is.  Conservatives think it’s not as bad as it may be.  Somewhere in between I’m sure.  But since we don’t think Trump needs to go, you guys think we are “Trump boys, Trump lovers, whatever else you want to call it. 

Uh huh.  Thanks for (probably unknowlingly) proving another point.

If you don't speak up, you are normalizing his behavior. That's exactly what tim said and I agreed with. You're accepting it. Silence it tacit support.

Saying "It's not that bad/important" is basically full throated acceptance and....there you go...normalization.

And no...I say you are Trump supporters/lovers, and I call Trump "ya boi" because you excuse him every mistake. Every lie.  Every bit of his bad behavior. No matter how egregious.  No matter how obvious. You refuse to hold him accountable.  And you refuse to acknowledge FACTS and DATA over his (and conservative media's) talking points.  You have no further to go to see that that the good Senators reasoning over why he HAS to vote for Trump, and your defense of it.

Just little smart ass remarks I’m sure you guys get a chuckle from.  What should we call you and your love for Obama for example?  You defend him any chance you get.  Similar?  No, of course not.  Because Obama was perfect, right?  In your minds he was.  Sorry we have different views..🙄

Yean, not so apt.  Why? Because I acknowledged (as did tim) Obama's flaws.  His overuse of drone strikes, for example.  His intrusion into privacy with more widespread use of "non-traditional" monitoring techniques.  Lots of other stuff.  Obama wasn't perfect.  

But I know it's easier to play the "whataboutism" game than it is to look in the mirror and realize you've been fully indoctrinated.

So, since you really seem to like  "whataboutism", lets turn it right back around: Trump supporters would have shit themselves, while yelling themselves horse, if Obama had done one TENTH of what Trump has done.  And you know it.

Conservatives lost their fucking minds, in full view on Fox News, over Obama wearing a TAN FUCKING SUIT??!!  So please, please, please, lets talk more about the double standard being applied here.

So,  yeah...normalizing AND hypocrisy.  It's whats for dinner.

It’s no wonder really how this thread has pretty much turned into 3 liberals taking up the majority of the posts.  There is no middle ground with you guys, and people don’t want to bother.  Exhausting

Yeah, thats it: Conservatives are exhausted.

That explains why you all show up ONLY when something positive happens in the administration...and disappear when its a fully engulfed dumpster fire.

I'd also add fast and furious to his mistakes, as well as caging kids. It's true it was a different situation but still wrong and unacceptable. I've also credited Trump with a few things, such as the criminal justice reform. I know there's a few others but i don't recall at the moment.

[tim_m]

Obama was never perfect, he made mistakes as do all presidents, but let's be realistic his actions and public statements pale in comparison to Trump as do they to any past president Republican or Democrat. These are unchartered waters. If you don't condone his actions or statements state you do not with more then that of a slap on the wrist. Things like asking foreign leaders to investigate a possible political opponent for what may turn out to be in exchange for aid already appropriated is more then simply doing something stupid, same with investigating a conspiracy theory. Abandoning the Kurds is more then stupid.

OUR GUY CAN DO WHATEVER BECAUSE THIS OTHER GUY GUY WASN'T PERFECT.

What kind of backwards fucking logic is that?

Also, every time someone says "Trump" and then mentions "middle ground", I laugh my ass off. 

The middle ground is the most hilarious thing really, they claim the left had moved way too far left but it's the conservatives who have moved to extreme right. In most modern countries our "socialists" would be considered right center.

[pilferk]

Obama was never perfect, he made mistakes as do all presidents, but let's be realistic his actions and public statements pale in comparison to Trump as do they to any past president Republican or Democrat. These are unchartered waters. If you don't condone his actions or statements state you do not with more then that of a slap on the wrist. Things like asking foreign leaders to investigate a possible political opponent for what may turn out to be in exchange for aid already appropriated is more then simply doing something stupid, same with investigating a conspiracy theory. Abandoning the Kurds is more then stupid.

OUR GUY CAN DO WHATEVER BECAUSE THIS OTHER GUY GUY WASN'T PERFECT.

What kind of backwards fucking logic is that?

Also, every time someone says "Trump" and then mentions "middle ground", I laugh my ass off. 

The middle ground is the most hilarious thing really, they claim the left had moved way too far left but it's the conservatives who have moved to extreme right. In most modern countries our "socialists" would be considered right center.

As we discussed, and showed using an objective study, a few pages back.

Again, evidencing a point.

[pilferk]

I'd also add fast and furious to his mistakes, as well as caging kids. It's true it was a different situation but still wrong and unacceptable. I've also credited Trump with a few things, such as the criminal justice reform. I know there's a few others but i don't recall at the moment.

Yup, both those two. I would say some of the stuff around Holder, in general, was problematic, too.  Nothing like the stuff with Barr and Trump, but....still raised my hackles.

 I also think he cost himself the House by tackling health care too early.  But, given he started from a dusted off Republican plan, and couldn't get the Repubs to compromise or influence or put their mark on the bill AT ALL, it largely ended up not mattering.  I still think infrastructure would have been a better first tackle.....and much less contentious.  Maybe you get less of a tea party revolt and things go a little easier, but that's a quibble, and not an absolute.

For Trump:

Criminal justice reform.
Bringing home the NK hostages.
This weekends removal of the ISIS leader.

All good things under the Trump administration.

[damnthehaters]

Please just try to explain these for me?

Under Obama's first two years and change, the national debt grew by 33%, and it grew by 84% by the end of the 2016 fiscal year.

How did he cut it in half?  Am I thinking of something else? 

My family is getting a 3% tax cut Under Trumps plan.  I’ve seen it first hand in my returns.  Child tax break is also very nice.  You somehow turn this into a negative? 

So much nonsense in your responses.  You say you don’t by the “time” thing.  You think if I take 3 minutes to reply to one of your messages, thats gonna be it?  No, because you will then respond to every detail of my response.  It’s never ending with you.  So yeah, I don’t have time.  And it’s pointless.  Honestly don’t even know why I’m replying now.  I guess to see the way you’re going to spin these topics again.