Donald Trump & 2016 Election

[pilferk]

Anyone want to dare defend Trump's Xenophobic tweets today?

And then his complaint that his racist tweets were called racist?

If anyone ever says "Trumps not racist" again, these tweets prove you wrong.  It's not longer up for debate. Trump has, himself, lost the point for you.

[tim_m]

Anyone want to dare defend Trump's Xenophobic tweets today?

And then his complaint that his racist tweets were called racist?

If anyone ever says "Trumps not racist" again, these tweets prove you wrong.  It's not longer up for debate. Trump has, himself, lost the point for you.

Oh how they are trying though.

[jarmo]

The whole "the Democrats have gone too far left" is relative.

Considering the "go back to your country" now seems to be the norm for the Republican party. Doesn't that just mean that they've moved more to the (far) right?
So even if the Democrats didn't go anywhere you'd have people complaining they're too far left because they're not following the other party to the far right.....


It's also more of the same "Us vs them" routine.

Unfortunately it's nothing new since this mentality took over that party.




/jarmo

[pilferk]

The whole "the Democrats have gone too far left" is relative.

Considering the "go back to your country" now seems to be the norm for the Republican party. Doesn't that just mean that they've moved more to the (far) right?
So even if the Democrats didn't go anywhere you'd have people complaining they're too far left because they're not following the other party to the far right.....


It's also more of the same "Us vs them" routine.

Unfortunately it's nothing new since this mentality took over that party.




/jarmo

And that's exactly it.  The Repubs say the Dems have moved too far left....from their position WAY far to the right.  With Repubs becoming "The Party of Trump" they've moved further from the center than the Dems have.  They'll all deny it, but it's true.

Or maybe it's not that they've really MOVED, it's that they've decided to abandon any pretense at being centrist and feel empowered to give voice to their true positions and feelings. As distasteful and deplorable as some of them are.

A SECTION of the democratic party has moved left, largely fueled by a youth movement (ironically run by Sanders, an old, white guy). That's certainly true.  You have much louder calls for single payor/universal health care and "free" education (both of which are actually PROVEN to improve the productivity, dependability, and usefulness of your workforce, but, you know....) than there have been in the past.  But they have moved a LOT less far than the Party of Trump has. 

And US Dems are, by no stretch of the imagination, "leftist" compared to most of the other larger world powers. Most of them would be considered downright ultra-conservatives in the rest of the world.  The problem is Republicans view universal healthcare as communism from where they sit to the far right.

[jarmo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the whole idea of the right pretty much "capitalism will solve everything. The government should stay out of peoples' lives"?

Now what we have is a right wing president who wants to regulate social media, who gives money to farmers because they can't make it in the capitalistic world he created etc.


Quite the party of contradictions....




/jarmo

[pilferk]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the whole idea of the right pretty much "capitalism will solve everything. The government should stay out of peoples' lives"?

Now what we have is a right wing president who wants to regulate social media, who gives money to farmers because they can't make it in the capitalistic world he created etc.


Quite the party of contradictions....

/jarmo

No, that's correct.  BUT, the problem is, Republicans don't actually understand what capitalism means.  If you create an entity that is solely driven to create profits (the corporation) that entity also has to pay it's fair share of taxes.

The Republicans abandoned that with a theory that, since corporations can create jobs, they should be immune from paying their fair share when it comes to taxes.  Because, they say, they will reinvest that money into creating more jobs.  It's the "trickle down" theory.

That theory has, twice, pushed us into recession.  It's a theory that has basically been proven untrue (and is being proven untrue again, as we watch corporate entities stockpile the money from Trumps tax cuts and use it to either fill their war chests or buy back their own shares).  But Republicans can't seem to wrap their minds around the fact their pet theory doesn't actually work that way, and hasn't in a VERY long time (say, the 1970's or so).

So, the truth is: If corporations paid their fair share....without the loopholes and exceptions...and paid an effective tax rate that couldn't hit 0% if they were profitable (I'm looking at you, Amazon, with billions in profits, a crappy employment record, and paying no taxes), we could actually 1) radically reduce our deficit spending and 2) actually afford all this stuff the Dems are proposing, and relatively easily.

And yes to the rest.  Republicans will sit there and say they want less government....except when they don't.  They want to control a woman's body, who you can sleep with, what opportunities those with darker complexions have, what news agencies can report (because their feelings can't take criticism) and a whole HOST of other stuff.  What they mean when they say less government is "Less government control over corporations so they can continue to pay us huge sums of money in the form of "donations" and screw over the middle class/working class".  And when their policies fail, and hit THEIR voters in the wallets, they want to bribe them for their votes by spending tax revenue to undo their fuckups.

And the dirty little secret about the party that preaches fiscal responsibility?  Since the mid 80's they've actually spent more than the dems.  They run higher deficits, both in terms of trade AND in terms of spending.  The only president in my life time to balance a budget? Clinton.  The only president to reduce the deficit in my lifetime? Obama.  Both democrats.

So yes, the Republican party is certainly full of "contradictions".  I'd even say hypocrisy, but.....we can go with contradictions if you want!

[jarmo]

Amazon is bad. A company that's doing too good for a right wing president. Imagine that....




/jarmo

[PermissionToLand]

Anyone want to dare defend Trump's Xenophobic tweets today?

And then his complaint that his racist tweets were called racist?

If anyone ever says "Trumps not racist" again, these tweets prove you wrong.  It's not longer up for debate. Trump has, himself, lost the point for you.

Oh, that was always an easy one, since he got sued by the DOJ for housing discrimination and his whole deal with the Central Park Five.

And that's exactly it.  The Repubs say the Dems have moved too far left....from their position WAY far to the right.  With Repubs becoming "The Party of Trump" they've moved further from the center than the Dems have.  They'll all deny it, but it's true.

Or maybe it's not that they've really MOVED, it's that they've decided to abandon any pretense at being centrist and feel empowered to give voice to their true positions and feelings. As distasteful and deplorable as some of them are.

A SECTION of the democratic party has moved left, largely fueled by a youth movement (ironically run by Sanders, an old, white guy). That's certainly true.  You have much louder calls for single payor/universal health care and "free" education (both of which are actually PROVEN to improve the productivity, dependability, and usefulness of your workforce, but, you know....) than there have been in the past.  But they have moved a LOT less far than the Party of Trump has. 

And US Dems are, by no stretch of the imagination, "leftist" compared to most of the other larger world powers. Most of them would be considered downright ultra-conservatives in the rest of the world.  The problem is Republicans view universal healthcare as communism from where they sit to the far right.

Get this, I actually had one of them trying to argue that Trump is a moderate because he's a populist. Claiming he always supported gay marriage (false) and that he responds to the will of the people. I just pointed out his insistence on building a wall despite pathetically low approval for it.

Dems are only just starting to re-center on the actual left after the New Dems of the '90s accepted most of Reagan's basic premises, became GOP-lite and abandoned FDR liberalism.

[tim_m]

I believe it was Regan who started the trickle down ala voodoo economics and slashed the tax rate ok the rich from 70% to 50%. He alone is responsible for the biggest widening in the income inequality we now have.

[PermissionToLand]

since corporations can create jobs

That's "the lies they sell to you". (side note: I think Garden of Eden as something of an anti-capitalist tirade, if not at least an anti-establishment one. "If they had someone to buy it, said, I'm sure they'd sell my soul")

But back on topic, it's not business owners who create jobs. Anyone who knows basic economics knows it's demand that creates jobs. That means the consumers are the "job creators". Employers are just facilitators.

[jarmo]

But back on topic, it's not business owners who create jobs. Anyone who knows basic economics knows it's demand that creates jobs. That means the consumers are the "job creators". Employers are just facilitators.

It's a nice theory. The companies have more money so they'll use it to hire more people.

The reality is that they'll just use it to get bigger profits.... Who doesn't want that?




On the topic of telling people to "go back" to where they came from.

Imagine the heads at Fox News if a Democrat pointed out that since they arguing against American laws such as the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, they're anti-American and should leave! 

You're against the American right for a woman to choose? Leave! 

That would go over well... I wonder if it would be met with a "someone's feeling very comedic today"...




/jarmo

[tim_m]

But back on topic, it's not business owners who create jobs. Anyone who knows basic economics knows it's demand that creates jobs. That means the consumers are the "job creators". Employers are just facilitators.

It's a nice theory. The companies have more money so they'll use it to hire more people.

The reality is that they'll just use it to get bigger profits.... Who doesn't want that?




On the topic of telling people to "go back" to where they came from.

Imagine the heads at Fox News if a Democrat pointed out that since they arguing against American laws such as the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, they're anti-American and should leave! 

You're against the American right for a woman to choose? Leave! 

That would go over well... I wonder if it would be met with a "someone's feeling very comedic today"...




/jarmo

Their heads would spontaneously blow up.

[pilferk]

But back on topic, it's not business owners who create jobs. Anyone who knows basic economics knows it's demand that creates jobs. That means the consumers are the "job creators". Employers are just facilitators.

Exactly this.

Whats proven to work is "trickle up".  It's the way the economy has recovered under Democrat presidents, both times.  Put more money in consumers pockets, and force the corporations (and esp mega-corporations) to carry their fair share of the load.  When consumers spend more, and demand goes up, everyone prospers.

Under Trump, the consumer spending index has flattened out, quite a bit, compared to Obama's last term. He hasn't, significantly, boosted spending beyond inflation values:

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2019/06/21/does-trump-deserve-credit-for-the-economy-the-numbers-say-no/

What’s more, Trump’s policies have not boosted consumer spending. This key indicator of economic health also has slowed since December 2017: Personal consumer spending grew 2.9 percent in the five quarters since Congress enacted Trump’s program—less than the 3.4 percent gains in the five quarters before his policies became law.

And remember, Republicans said that Obama's growth of the economy and consumer spending was "anemic".

Consumer CONFIDENCE is all well and good (though it, too, has flattened out since early 2018), but consumer spending is actually the big driver of our economy.

The Republican theory is backwards: always has been, always will be.  And, in fact, business investment in the economy has actually gone DOWN since the tax cuts, not up.  

But the Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA) reports that business investment has contributed less to GDP growth since December 2017 than it did before. In fact, with the exception of the beginning of 2018—immediately following the passage of the GOP’s big tax breaks for corporations and other businesses—business investment has slowed down.

And I'd offer that bump in 2018 was associated with the PR surrounding the tax cuts.  Make good measures to try to convince people that "they" (corporations) would be good citizens.  They haven't been.

An involved, and functionally governing, Republican government would tell those businesses that, unless they start using those tax cuts to fuel job and wage growth, they're going to repeal them.  Or they would have tied the tax cuts to job creation/wage increases in the first place.  But we all know that's an unreasonable expectation.

As an aside: the individual tax payer side of those cuts?  Exactly as predicted, a big cut for the rich, and a relative pittance (and that's for 2018, the "biggest" cut year in the legislation) for the working and middle class.

On average, about $20 a week for the middle class wage earner, and about $8 a week for the working class.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tax-plan-consequences/

[pilferk]

It's a nice theory. The companies have more money so they'll use it to hire more people.

The reality is that they'll just use it to get bigger profits.... Who doesn't want that?




On the topic of telling people to "go back" to where they came from.

Imagine the heads at Fox News if a Democrat pointed out that since they arguing against American laws such as the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, they're anti-American and should leave! 

You're against the American right for a woman to choose? Leave! 

That would go over well... I wonder if it would be met with a "someone's feeling very comedic today"...




/jarmo

I was thinking about this, this morning!

Trump tweeted yesterday something to the effect of: If you don't like our country, you should just leave.

I'd suggest HE is the one that doesn't like our country, as currently constituted.  He's the one working against the rule of law, constantly.  He's the one that doesn't like our country being a melting pot, which it's always been. He's the one that shows disdain for our current laws, and the Constitution they're based on, every day.

We had a LONG discussion, in the previous pages, about this when discussing the Census question.  There was a "well, it's distorted" line that perfectly demonstrates Trumps (and his supporters) mindset. If they don't like it, it's "distorted", whether its entrenched in hundreds of years of jurisprudence and written directly into the Constitution or not.

TRUMP is the one that hates this country. Hates what it is now, and that it is not the 1940s/1950s uber white male dominated, gangster/robber baron paradise that he wishes it was. And all he sows is hate and division and fear.  Trump loves power, money, and control.  That's the hard truth.

What Trump means is: If you don't like the country I want to turn this in to (a racist, misogynist, intolerant, close minded, fascist, monarchy), you should leave.

[jarmo]

Make America Great Again.

Says it all.

You tell people the country is shit while in reality you inherit a country that's back from the worst economic crisis in quite some time.

The unemployment numbers started going down in about 2010.



It's a familiar tactic though. Tell people something and promise a quick fix for it. Even if there's nothing really wrong that need to be fixed...

Happens in many places.





/jarmo

[sandman]

god damn! I leave for a week and it's a giant liberal circle jerk in this thread. I hope you all cover your keyboards when reading each others posts.

according to the "majority" in here (it's actually funny how the BS antics in this thread has decreased the number of posters to 6 - there were FAR more discussions and exchange of ideas during Obama's term.), if the Dems could just have all the power and we could follow all of the liberal ways of the world, the US would be the greatest country on earth. it's just those damn republicans and their right of center ideals that hold this country back. it's the republicans that are to blame for everything that is wrong with our country, our system of government, and how the country is run.

it's black and white. good vs evil. just to be clear:
republicans - liars, stupid, hypocrites, evil.
democrats - honest, smart, sincere, good.
orange man bad.

the media and our politicians on BOTH sides got you all hook line and sinker. right where they want you. SAD!

(now i'm going to a message board that is pro-republican and i'm gonna tell them the exact same thing. what's amazing is that you all sound so much alike!!)

[pilferk]

I believe it was Regan who started the trickle down ala voodoo economics and slashed the tax rate ok the rich from 70% to 50%. He alone is responsible for the biggest widening in the income inequality we now have.

I don't know about "alone", but he is the father of the income gap, yes.  And again, that's just history.  It's inconvenient history for the Republicans, but....the numbers say what the numbers say.

As a fiscal conservative, my problem with the Republicans is..they aren't anymore.  Not nationally. They actually spend more than the comparable Democrat administrations, and on the dumbest of things.  They cut taxes on the rich, and the corporations, which widens our spending deficit.  Basically, they spend more and reduce revenue.  Thats the OPPOSITE of fiscal conservatism, a platform that the Repubs claim to uphold, but don't. Welcome to the world of neo-cons and then the Party of Trump. They've now abandoned fiscal conservatism, law and order (and I mean REAL law and order...like the value of the rule of law), and family values with this administration.  So...I just don't see what's left at the national level to support other than greed, racism (witness Trumps comments), and misogyny. Because thats REALLY all Trump represents.  That's a far cry from the Republican party of even the late early 2000s.  And what's FUNNY in all this is that, as recently as the early 2000's, most of what we've seen from the party of Trump would have offended Republicans, and instantly disqualified Trump from being a candidate.  That's what desperation does to your rah rah blood sport politics, I guess.  You adopt what you hate, as long as it gets you into power!

On a state and local level, I have historically voted for Repubs more often than I do dems because, in CT, they've been socially liberal and good controllers of the purse strings.  They seek out VALUE, not the crippling of social services and programs proven to be helpful (like Headstart, PBS, and Planned Parenthood).  They just want to make sure there are ways to pay for them, without taxing the citizens into bankruptcy.

Jodi Rell (a Repub), IMHO, might have been the single best governor, in my state, in my life time. I mean, Ella Grasso, I guess...but I was SUPER young when she was governor. Dan Malloy (a Dem) might have been the worst.  I've voted for a Republican "mayor" in our town in every election we've had over the past 18 years, save one. I voted for Nancy Johnson (a Repub) WAY more times than I've voted for a Democrat for our districts House Rep. I have probably cast more votes, in my lifetime, for Republicans than I have for Democrats. It's close with all the state house and senate votes, but I think the scale tips slightly toward the Repubs.

Neither party is perfect.  The Dems, right now, are just the lesser of all evils.  It would be a great time for a third party to pop up, but that's never going to happen.  The system (and the money) is too invested and ingrained in the current 2 party system.  Until we can get Citizens United undone, and get the big corporate money OUT of the election process, there's never going to be a third party.  It's just too much of an uphill battle.

The truth is, the national Republican party has lost touch with moderate Republicans....MUCH moreso than the Dem party has lost touch with moderate Dems. They accuse the dems of moving "too far left" when the truth is.....and the results of the 2018 elections support this....they've moved too far right. WAY too far.  And I suspect they're slowly alienating their suburban support, especially in bluer states like mine.  I know I've seen it slowly creeping in around here. They're just sick of defending Trump...and, in cases like his comments this weekend, finding it impossible to do so.  We know, again from the last election, the Repubs are losing the youth vote by huge margins. And we know indies (like me) are abandoning Repub candidates in droves....again, look at 2018.  There simply are no more moderate Repubs at the National level anymore.  And no, Susan Collins doesn't count.....because she never actually makes a principled stand. Those that were more moderate have either left, died, or converted whole hog to the Trump zealotry in order to maintain their power.

I mean, look at Paul Ryan: Hardly a centrist, even HE now says Trump is a bridge too far for him. He "converted" and then couldn't look at himself in the mirror.  He preferred to abandon any attempt at reelection so he could get as far away from Trump as humanely possible.  His book rips Trump up one side and down the other.  Repubs will say it's "sour grapes"....why I don't know, since Ryan basically helped orchestrate one of the few Trump "wins", legislatively.  But I suspect his take is a lot closer to the mark than they care to admit.

I don't think Pauls the only one running away from the Republicans, either. I've read a couple dozen articles that show the Repub party is shrinking, and FAR more than any #WalkAway is effecting the dems.  We'll see if they turn out to be true, come 2020.

The Republican party isn't evil.  They're lost. At every turn, the Democrats have (in practical governance) had successes where the Republicans have had failures (mostly fueled by the end of Reagans admin, Bush I's admin, and Bush II's admin). If the dems could figure out how to deliver a compelling, consistent, message with any degree of charisma and chuzpah....the dems would have all three branches for a good long time.   For the Repubs, it comes down to one thing: How can you argue that you're going to do what the opposing party has already done?  "We're going to reduce the spending deficit". Obama did and, so far, the Repubs have not.  "We're going to balance the budget (their rallying cry througout the 80's and early 90's). Clinton, as much of a scumbucket as he was personally, did it.  The Repubs run on the economy every time.  Every Repub administration in my lifetime, save Nixons (who approached the week economy he inherited by upping government spending....a very DEMOCRAT approach) has led us into recession.  And every democratic administration has led us out of one, and presided over the recovery.  We'll see when it comes to Trump.

But, anyway, the National Republican party basically found themselves with two choices: Moderate or double down.  They ultimately chose to double down, move MUCH further right,  join the cult of personality, and accept the gaslighting. That worked in 2016.  Not so well in 2018.  We'll see in 2020. But they bear little to no resemblance, other than their red ties, to the moral majority, the party of fiscal responsibility, or the party of Lincoln. 

Meh...sorry for the rambling.

[jarmo]

(now i'm going to a message board that is pro-republican and i'm gonna tell them the exact same thing. what's amazing is that you all sound so much alike!!)

Are you sure you're not going to Area 51?



/jarmo

[sandman]

(now i'm going to a message board that is pro-republican and i'm gonna tell them the exact same thing. what's amazing is that you all sound so much alike!!)

Are you sure you're not going to Area 51?



/jarmo

 

over a million and counting!

[tim_m]

On a slightly different topic from the events of the weekend, i found a few things out about Trump i didn't know and makes him worse. Back in 1990 he actually tried to get his ailing father who had dementia to try and sign a rewritten will to make Trump the executor. This was in the time period where he was in financial ruin and wanted his dad to do this to bail him out. Then a year prior to his father's death in 1999, he took out a 10.2 million loan they didn't know about until after. He also revoked the insurance of his nephew's son who has cerebral palsey out of spite because they challenged the will. They settled out of court but this speaks volumes.