Donald Trump & 2016 Election

[pilferk]

As usual, you make compelling points! Say what you will about the freshman Dems in the house, but they know how to work messaging. It's also great to see at least Warren coming out with frequent specific policy stances. For that alone, I am being drawn to her. It also makes me fear the failure that a candidate with no message at all, like Biden or Klobuchar, could entail...

I honestly think it's a generational thing, with the Freshman Dems.  Say what you want about AOC, but her ability to drive a conversation, and deliver a message, is pretty impressive.  She's the first Dem I can remember, in recent years, that gets/got the Repubs all in a kerfluffle.  And she did that because she was able to shape the message in a way that scared (scares?) the ever loving shit out of them.

You're seeing that more and more with the freshman Dems, and I suggest a big part of that is they are younger than any freshman legislative class in the modern era.  They know social media and they know messaging...it's what they've grown up with.  So hopefully they can provide a little more influence on the older leadership group in the party.

[tim_m]

As usual, you make compelling points! Say what you will about the freshman Dems in the house, but they know how to work messaging. It's also great to see at least Warren coming out with frequent specific policy stances. For that alone, I am being drawn to her. It also makes me fear the failure that a candidate with no message at all, like Biden or Klobuchar, could entail...

I honestly think it's a generational thing, with the Freshman Dems.  Say what you want about AOC, but her ability to drive a conversation, and deliver a message, is pretty impressive.  She's the first Dem I can remember, in recent years, that gets/got the Repubs all in a kerfluffle.  And she did that because she was able to shape the message in a way that scared (scares?) the ever loving shit out of them.

You're seeing that more and more with the freshman Dems, and I suggest a big part of that is they are younger than any freshman legislative class in the modern era.  They know social media and they know messaging...it's what they've grown up with.  So hopefully they can provide a little more influence on the older leadership group in the party.

Anyone that scares the shit out of the establishment politicians on either side and can push for real change is ok in my book.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Anyone that scares the shit out of the establishment politicians on either side and can push for real change is ok in my book.

To me, Trump represents your sentiment. Pisses off both sides and is pushing for real change.

Ill give Credit to AOC for bucking the system but I think her ideas are horrible. 

[tim_m]

Anyone that scares the shit out of the establishment politicians on either side and can push for real change is ok in my book.

To me, Trump represents your sentiment. Pisses off both sides and is pushing for real change.

Ill give Credit to AOC for bucking the system but I think her ideas are horrible. 

What change? How's that swamp draining and complete transparency thing going he promised? Ordering subpoenaed witnesses not to comply is the exact opposite. It's witness tampering and obstruction last time i checked.

[pilferk]

What change? How's that swamp draining and complete transparency thing going he promised? Ordering subpoenaed witnesses not to comply is the exact opposite. It's witness tampering and obstruction last time i checked.

Why tim....turning the country into an exact replica of the Trump Organization, with him as the king on top!  That's the change they can believe in!!!!! (whoops, wrong candidate)

He was a terrible businessman, with multiple bankruptcies, who's only real success was in branding, after conning people into believing his name had value.  And his daddy bailed him out at least a dozen times from bad business dealings, in addition to the bankruptcies.

His businesses were all overt demonstrations of cronyism and nepotism.

He had terrible moral fiber and questionable character.

He had a long term habit of using blackmail to "make deals". 

He had a long history of suing his way out of the money he owed people.

He bragged (in the 80's) that he was "mobbed up" and only backtracked when the mob got pissed off about his claims.

The Trump Organization, from top to bottom, IS THE SWAMP.  And he has fought with every inch of his being, since the 70's, transparency.  Every time he is swept up in litigation, he fights sharing every bit of information with the courts. Trump wouldn't know what transparency was if it snuck up behind him and transparently kicked him in the ass.

He has brought every bit of that smarminess, seediness, underhandedness, and terrible (and always short term) business sense to the presidency.

But, hey...he sure has brought about change!

Ignoring the rule of law, treating the presidency like a dictatorship/monarchy (and daring Congress and the courts to stop him), being the least transparent administration in the modern era (and that's something when you're including the Nixon administration in the conversation), and generally changing it all FOR THE WORSE.

But hey, if you're an anarchist.....you're getting exactly what you wanted. 

Ditto if you just want to swing from Trumps nuts because he has an R after his name and wears a red tie!

If you're a constitutionalist, or any sort of actual fan of what America is SUPPOSED to be....not so much.

[pilferk]

To me, Trump represents your sentiment. Pisses off both sides and is pushing for real change.

Ill give Credit to AOC for bucking the system but I think her ideas are horrible. 

I'm curious.

What SPECIFIC ideas of AOCs do you find so horrible?

[jarmo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5vndTiR6t8

 





/jarmo

[tim_m]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5vndTiR6t8

 





/jarmo

I saw the whole thing. He didn't answer one question, not one.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Anyone that scares the shit out of the establishment politicians on either side and can push for real change is ok in my book.

To me, Trump represents your sentiment. Pisses off both sides and is pushing for real change.

Ill give Credit to AOC for bucking the system but I think her ideas are horrible. 

What change? How's that swamp draining and complete transparency thing going he promised? Ordering subpoenaed witnesses not to comply is the exact opposite. It's witness tampering and obstruction last time i checked.

Ok, Ill go further, here a few examples. ....

Immigration reform based on securing the border and revising the immigration system. It is not a manufactured crisis.

Trying to work with North Korea

Addressing trade issues with China and intellectual property theft.

Prison reform

Creating opportunity zones in inner cities

Not getting involved in unnecessary wars ( ie. Iraq, Libya)

The jury is still out regarding the success of these and other measures, but he is trying to work on things that past administrations were not able or willing to.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

To me, Trump represents your sentiment. Pisses off both sides and is pushing for real change.

Ill give Credit to AOC for bucking the system but I think her ideas are horrible. 

I'm curious.

What SPECIFIC ideas of AOCs do you find so horrible?

Green     New     Deal      =      Bankruptcy on a national level.

[pilferk]

Green     New     Deal      =      Bankruptcy on a national level.

Thanks.

That's what I figured you'd say.

And it demonstrates that you don't actually know what the Green New Deal is, nor what her ideas actually are.

You just know what the conservative media has fed you.

Since the Green New Deal isn't actually a package of legislation, but a legislative "goal"/initiative, it can't "cost" anything.  That's the spin the conservatives have tried to come up with, and it's exactly what I figured you would say.  Just like the article posted from the fake "Greenpeace founder" earlier in this thread.

The Green New Deal can't bankrupt anyone, or anything.  It can't cost anything, because of what it is.  It's an idea.  It's a commitment to trying (and I emphasize trying) to address climate change and some of the various ways we might do that.

It's not actual commitments to anything.  It's not like EPA standards.  It imposes NO requirements. It sets goals with no penalties (and she's said it shouldn't have any if we don't reach those goals). Its a way to get public funding to support private industry in trying to attain those goals.

Again, it would be good if you actually did a bit of research into what she's ACTUALLY said on this front, and not what you've been TOLD she's said.

I'm not AOCs biggest fan.  I respect her ability to message, and I actually think (like it did in Hawaii) the GND is a decent jumping off point for a climate focused set of legislative goals.  But there are other areas where our opinions depart (her recent tweets about eliminating solitary confinement are a good example of our departures). But, having said that, I've taken the time to figure out what her positions ARE vs what other people TELL ME they are. 

[PermissionToLand]

Ok, Ill go further, here a few examples. ....

Immigration reform based on securing the border and revising the immigration system. It is not a manufactured crisis.

Trying to work with North Korea

Addressing trade issues with China and intellectual property theft.

Prison reform

Creating opportunity zones in inner cities

Not getting involved in unnecessary wars ( ie. Iraq, Libya)

The jury is still out regarding the success of these and other measures, but he is trying to work on things that past administrations were not able or willing to.

Trump had jack squat to do with the prison reform bill. And we are on the verge of going to war with Iran and intervening in Venezuela.

What are these supposed opportunity zones?

[pilferk]

Ok, Ill go further, here a few examples. ....

Immigration reform based on securing the border and revising the immigration system. It is not a manufactured crisis.

Trying to work with North Korea

Addressing trade issues with China and intellectual property theft.

Prison reform

Creating opportunity zones in inner cities

Not getting involved in unnecessary wars ( ie. Iraq, Libya)

The jury is still out regarding the success of these and other measures, but he is trying to work on things that past administrations were not able or willing to.

Trump had jack squat to do with the prison reform bill. And we are on the verge of going to war with Iran and intervening in Venezuela.

What are these supposed opportunity zones?

Yeah, if those are the "changes" someone thinks Trump is striving for, he's failing miserably pretty much across the board. Prison reform being the singular exception.....and as you point out, his involvement in that legislation was minimal.  He deserves some credit, but.....one thing does not a successful administration make.

And, honestly, the immigration point is my case in point for the whole messaging thing.  It IS a manufactured crisis.  Statistics and data tell us it is.  It's Trumps rabble rouser, sure to get a rise out of his voters.

PS: Here's a good article from forbes on opportunity zones:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/morgansimon/2019/03/30/what-you-need-to-know-about-opportunity-zones/#666c89da6ae2

And another from Wapo:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/will-opportunity-zoneshelp-the-rich-the-poor-or-both/2019/01/04/2a1e153a-0fe1-11e9-8f0c-6f878a26288a_story.html?utm_term=.5c51f1423af8

In short, they are complete and utter bullshit. They are tax cuts. They are SUPPOSED to get companies to buy and build in depressed areas. They've been tried before in the 90's. And a) They don't work (because companies can't be bothered to invest their war chests) and b) when tax cuts LIKE THIS have been used, in the past, they tend to lead to gentrification, pushing lower income residents OUT, not providing better opportunities (job or housing) for them.  Essentially, even if they were used (and largely, they're not...they can be deal sweeteners but they don't actually "convince" investors), they get used in areas already seeing gentrification, and they're generally bad for existing residents in those areas.  No need to wonder on these....they will do zippo for those areas, simply by being what they are. They are, funnily enough, a Dem idea from the Biden camp which were then adopted and tweaked by Repubs for the Tax Cut bill.

Again, messaging.  They have a nice, inspiring name attached to a concept that is not helpful for those with low incomes or in affordable housing.

[PermissionToLand]

Ok, Ill go further, here a few examples. ....

Immigration reform based on securing the border and revising the immigration system. It is not a manufactured crisis.

Trying to work with North Korea

Addressing trade issues with China and intellectual property theft.

Prison reform

Creating opportunity zones in inner cities

Not getting involved in unnecessary wars ( ie. Iraq, Libya)

The jury is still out regarding the success of these and other measures, but he is trying to work on things that past administrations were not able or willing to.

Trump had jack squat to do with the prison reform bill. And we are on the verge of going to war with Iran and intervening in Venezuela.

What are these supposed opportunity zones?

Yeah, if those are the "changes" someone thinks Trump is striving for, he's failing miserably pretty much across the board. Prison reform being the singular exception.....and as you point out, his involvement in that legislation was minimal.  He deserves some credit, but.....one thing does not a successful administration make.

And, honestly, the immigration point is my case in point for the whole messaging thing.  It IS a manufactured crisis.  Statistics and data tell us it is.  It's Trumps rabble rouser, sure to get a rise out of his voters.

PS: Here's a good article from forbes on opportunity zones:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/morgansimon/2019/03/30/what-you-need-to-know-about-opportunity-zones/#666c89da6ae2

And another from Wapo:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/will-opportunity-zoneshelp-the-rich-the-poor-or-both/2019/01/04/2a1e153a-0fe1-11e9-8f0c-6f878a26288a_story.html?utm_term=.5c51f1423af8

In short, they are complete and utter bullshit. They are tax cuts. They are SUPPOSED to get companies to buy and build in depressed areas. They've been tried before in the 90's. And a) They don't work (because companies can't be bothered to invest their war chests) and b) when tax cuts LIKE THIS have been used, in the past, they tend to lead to gentrification, pushing lower income residents OUT, not providing better opportunities (job or housing) for them.  Essentially, even if they were used (and largely, they're not...they can be deal sweeteners but they don't actually "convince" investors), they get used in areas already seeing gentrification, and they're generally bad for existing residents in those areas.  No need to wonder on these....they will do zippo for those areas, simply by being what they are. They are, funnily enough, a Dem idea from the Biden camp which were then adopted and tweaked by Repubs for the Tax Cut bill.

Again, messaging.  They have a nice, inspiring name attached to a concept that is not helpful for those with low incomes or in affordable housing.

As always, any time something seemingly positive or reasonable comes from the GOP, once you scratch under the surface, it's the same old grift.

[pilferk]

Jobs report out.

Job growth missed targets by 100k (75k total adds).

But the big takeaway, in a trend I pointed out last month, both March and April took BIG revisions down (75k, total). April was revised down somewhere north of 15%.  March was revised down north of 18%.  That's been the trend this year.  Good numbers when they come out, then big revisions down later.  March now missed targets.  April still exceeded them, but not by NEARLY as much (just under half as much).

Job growth is essentially flat this year, and down year over year.  Wage growth is down, year over year. On the plus side, unemployment is steady.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

[tim_m]

So apparently our fearless leader thinks Mars is part of the moon

[PermissionToLand]

Jobs report out.

Job growth missed targets by 100k (75k total adds).

But the big takeaway, in a trend I pointed out last month, both March and April took BIG revisions down (75k, total). April was revised down somewhere north of 15%.  March was revised down north of 18%.  That's been the trend this year.  Good numbers when they come out, then big revisions down later.  March now missed targets.  April still exceeded them, but not by NEARLY as much (just under half as much).

Job growth is essentially flat this year, and down year over year.  Wage growth is down, year over year. On the plus side, unemployment is steady.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

And wage growth is the real critical issue here. Because it's stagnated for decades now as the top earners have eaten up all of the gains. And then you have the rise of gig employment, temp jobs, adjunct teachers and so on which even further reduce wages in real terms when you factor in lost benefits. The rigging of the game behind the scenes continues unperturbed.

[sandman]

“I think this is dangerous territory. This is not the way to treat a friend. It’s not the way to deal with immigration. It's not the way to meet the humanitarian needs at the border." Pelosi, 6/5/19

“I would like to thank the President of Mexico, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, and his foreign minister, Marcelo Ebrard, together with all of the many representatives of both the United States and Mexico, for working so long and hard to get our agreement on immigration completed!“ President Trump, 6/8/19

[jarmo]

Yay! Congratulations! It's not everyone who can create a problem, then threaten the other part and claim victory when the other part agrees to do things that have already been agreed on. On top of that, the threat itself would've been like shooting yourself in the foot.

One victory after another. Like when he shut down the government for a record breaking time!

The approval ratings must be in the 90 something percent by now?




/jarmo

[sandman]

Yay! Congratulations! It's not everyone who can create a problem, then threaten the other part and claim victory when the other part agrees to do things that have already been agreed on. On top of that, the threat itself would've been like shooting yourself in the foot.

One victory after another. Like when he shut down the government for a record breaking time!

The approval ratings must be in the 90 something percent by now?




/jarmo

from CNN...

Mexican President Andrés Manuel López Obrador said Saturday that he had a phone call with Trump after negotiators reached a deal Friday.

"I spoke on the telephone with President Trump," Lopez Obrador tweeted in Spanish on Saturday. "I told him that in Tijuana I would say that I do not lift a clenched fist but an open and frank hand to the president of the United States. We reiterated our disposition to friendship, dialogue and collaboration for the good of our countries."