Donald Trump & 2016 Election

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Speaking of tax day, I wrote a check for under $100 yesterday for taxes.  Last year the check was $5K.

I made more than the previous year and paid less. And do not net 6 figures so I'm far from rich. 

So I cant buy into the Trumps tax plan benefits millionaire and billionaires bullshit that the left is trying to sell.

Are you mentally impaired? Nobody said it ONLY affected the rich. The FACT is that the top 1% gets 83% of the gains from the Trump Tax Scam.

Educate yourself, for the love of God:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/18/16791174/republican-tax-bill-congress-conference-tax-policy-center

 

Is all the name calling really necessary?

Trump's tax plan saved me  $4900. That is a good thing for me and my family. If it also helped some rich people I'm not going to lose my mind over it. I dont hate rich people. Some of them actually worked hard for their money.

Reading Vox to educate myself?  that's a good one.   

 

[jarmo]

The difference is that the ATTEMPT to meddle in the 2016 election by foreign nations happened under the Obama administration so the responsibilities fall at their feet.  That being said NEITHER side has clean hands in their attempts to allow these foreign entities to, at the very least, disparage their opponent.

I'm aware. But the fact remains that it happened and people are upset about the wrong things (IMHO).




/jarmo

[tim_m]

The difference is that the ATTEMPT to meddle in the 2016 election by foreign nations happened under the Obama administration so the responsibilities fall at their feet.  That being said NEITHER side has clean hands in their attempts to allow these foreign entities to, at the very least, disparage their opponent.

I'm aware. But the fact remains that it happened and people are upset about the wrong things (IMHO).




/jarmo

And Obama did do something about it. He wanted to do more but he was stone walled by McConnell. Then Trump undid everything Obama did in regards to what Obama was able to do in response to the Russians meddling.

[russkwtx]

Trump is a dishonest, amoral, pathological liar who is destroying America and its democracy. There is nothing good to be said about him.

USA Today called Trump "corrupt" and "unpatriotic" which is ironic because he ostentatiously embraces the flag along with his racist "make America great again" which is a cover for discrimination in all ways against brown people and their culture.

Trump is a cancer. He has not achieved anything in his life that daddy did not give him other than being unfaithful to his wife and sexually harassing 17 women. 

Here's the link. USA Today is no great paper but it is generally middle of the road and not "biased"  like the "Liberal" Washington Post and New York Times, two papers that were excoriated by Trump as "fake news" but in fact the Mueller report showed them to be remarkably accurate.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mueller-report-corrupt-unpatriotic-president-215911654.html

[PermissionToLand]

Speaking of tax day, I wrote a check for under $100 yesterday for taxes.  Last year the check was $5K.

I made more than the previous year and paid less. And do not net 6 figures so I'm far from rich. 

So I cant buy into the Trumps tax plan benefits millionaire and billionaires bullshit that the left is trying to sell.

Are you mentally impaired? Nobody said it ONLY affected the rich. The FACT is that the top 1% gets 83% of the gains from the Trump Tax Scam.

Educate yourself, for the love of God:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/18/16791174/republican-tax-bill-congress-conference-tax-policy-center

 

Is all the name calling really necessary?

Trump's tax plan saved me  $4900. That is a good thing for me and my family. If it also helped some rich people I'm not going to lose my mind over it. I dont hate rich people. Some of them actually worked hard for their money.

Reading Vox to educate myself?  that's a good one.   

What a surprise, Trump supporter refuses to read anything that doesn't confirm his ideology.

Media Bias Fact Check says of Vox:

Factual Reporting: HIGH

Huh...

You have no problem with 83% of the benefits going to the top 1% in a time of the GREATEST INEQUALITY SINCE THE GILDED AGE?

And you ask why I question your intelligence...

[PermissionToLand]

Trump is a dishonest, amoral, pathological liar who is destroying America and its democracy. There is nothing good to be said about him.

USA Today called Trump "corrupt" and "unpatriotic" which is ironic because he ostentatiously embraces the flag along with his racist "make America great again" which is a cover for discrimination in all ways against brown people and their culture.

Trump is a cancer. He has not achieved anything in his life that daddy did not give him other than being unfaithful to his wife and sexually harassing 17 women. 

Here's the link. USA Today is no great paper but it is generally middle of the road and not "biased"  like the "Liberal" Washington Post and New York Times, two papers that were excoriated by Trump as "fake news" but in fact the Mueller report showed them to be remarkably accurate.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mueller-report-corrupt-unpatriotic-president-215911654.html

Oh God, Yahoo News. Don't tread into the comments, they're a deep look into the psyche of the Trumplings that you just don't want to see.

Of course, it should be obvious that the traitors to our country will be proclaiming their patriotism the loudest.

... and literally hugging the fucking flag. 

There is simply nothing too hamfisted for these rubes to buy into. Nothing.

[jarmo]

I suggest certain people stop with the name calling.

If you can't get your point across without it, try again.





/jarmo

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Speaking of tax day, I wrote a check for under $100 yesterday for taxes.  Last year the check was $5K.

I made more than the previous year and paid less. And do not net 6 figures so I'm far from rich. 

So I cant buy into the Trumps tax plan benefits millionaire and billionaires bullshit that the left is trying to sell.

Are you mentally impaired? Nobody said it ONLY affected the rich. The FACT is that the top 1% gets 83% of the gains from the Trump Tax Scam.

Educate yourself, for the love of God:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/18/16791174/republican-tax-bill-congress-conference-tax-policy-center

 

Is all the name calling really necessary?

Trump's tax plan saved me  $4900. That is a good thing for me and my family. If it also helped some rich people I'm not going to lose my mind over it. I dont hate rich people. Some of them actually worked hard for their money.

Reading Vox to educate myself?  that's a good one.   

What a surprise, Trump supporter refuses to read anything that doesn't confirm his ideology.

Media Bias Fact Check says of Vox:

Factual Reporting: HIGH

Huh...

You have no problem with 83% of the benefits going to the top 1% in a time of the GREATEST INEQUALITY SINCE THE GILDED AGE?

And you ask why I question your intelligence...

Top 1% pay almost half the taxes. https://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/13/top-1-pay-nearly-half-of-federal-income-taxes.html

Regarding the effect of raising taxes...Take a look at NY State for example. Some of the highest taxes in the nation and what are the people with money doing as well as those who are working class and struggling to find economic opportunity? They are moving out of the state. https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/n-y-no-1-losing-residents-move-states-article-1.3712413

The federal government is taking in record amounts of taxes and we are in record debt. We have s spending problem, it isnt an issue with not getting enough money from the rich.

Vox consistently writes favorably about Left-leaning policies and never includes a Right-leaning perspective. https://www.allsides.com/news-source/vox-news-media-bias

If they gave more than one perspective or viewpoint I'd take them more seriously.

[pilferk]

The difference is that the ATTEMPT to meddle in the 2016 election by foreign nations happened under the Obama administration so the responsibilities fall at their feet.  That being said NEITHER side has clean hands in their attempts to allow these foreign entities to, at the very least, disparage their opponent.

I'm aware. But the fact remains that it happened and people are upset about the wrong things (IMHO).




/jarmo

And Obama did do something about it. He wanted to do more but he was stone walled by McConnell. Then Trump undid everything Obama did in regards to what Obama was able to do in response to the Russians meddling.

Exactly this.  Reports started coming in early in the summer before the election. 

His administration issued an official statement about a month before the election, warning voters about the fake news invasion and the Russians attempts to interfere:

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/10/07/joint-statement-department-homeland-security-and-office-director-national

Obama also had his national intelligence agencies engaged in an active measures campaign to stop it.

AFTER the election, Obama commissioned a report, from his intelligence agencies, to enumerate the actions that the Russians took, in expectation this would be used as a "lessons learned" report, so we could fix future elections.

He also tried to do more, using the Gang of eight (since much of the specifics were classified) but Mitch and Paul refused to do anything about it in Congress. 

The problem with holding Obama responsible is....both chambers of the legislature were also held by Republicans.  He couldn't get any legislative measures taken without their help...and they weren't willing to help. 

[pilferk]

The federal government is taking in record amounts of taxes and we are in record debt. We have s spending problem, it isnt an issue with not getting enough money from the rich.

Source?

Because the numbers I've seen directly out of the government show a fall in revenue of about 8% for FY 2018.

INDIVIDUAL taxes have increased by about 8%.  On creeping employment numbers.

Corporate taxed DECREASED by 28%.

It's NOT entirely a spending problem (there is some of that, too, yes).  It's also revenue problem.  And it's one fueled by trying to prop up the budget almost entirely on the middle and working class.

http://www.crfb.org/blogs/has-revenue-risen-2018

https://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/federal_budget_estimate_vs_actual_2018

We don't know exactly how FY2019 will go, but....so far the projections and numbers I've seen for 2019 are pretty similar.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/the-government-ran-a-544-billion-deficit-over-the-first-5-months-of-the-fiscal-year/2019/03/22/932d3438-4cc8-11e9-9663-00ac73f49662_story.html?utm_term=.693b413edc0a

A "flat" tax growth rate (and you're right...overspending by the Republican held congress) in a growing economy shows that tax cut isn't leading to new revenue.  Which is pretty much what those opposing the cut said was going to happen.

[tim_m]

Speaking of tax day, I wrote a check for under $100 yesterday for taxes.  Last year the check was $5K.

I made more than the previous year and paid less. And do not net 6 figures so I'm far from rich. 

So I cant buy into the Trumps tax plan benefits millionaire and billionaires bullshit that the left is trying to sell.

Are you mentally impaired? Nobody said it ONLY affected the rich. The FACT is that the top 1% gets 83% of the gains from the Trump Tax Scam.

Educate yourself, for the love of God:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/18/16791174/republican-tax-bill-congress-conference-tax-policy-center

 

Is all the name calling really necessary?

Trump's tax plan saved me  $4900. That is a good thing for me and my family. If it also helped some rich people I'm not going to lose my mind over it. I dont hate rich people. Some of them actually worked hard for their money.

Reading Vox to educate myself?  that's a good one.   

What a surprise, Trump supporter refuses to read anything that doesn't confirm his ideology.

Media Bias Fact Check says of Vox:

Factual Reporting: HIGH

Huh...

You have no problem with 83% of the benefits going to the top 1% in a time of the GREATEST INEQUALITY SINCE THE GILDED AGE?

And you ask why I question your intelligence...

Top 1% pay almost half the taxes. https://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/13/top-1-pay-nearly-half-of-federal-income-taxes.html

Regarding the effect of raising taxes...Take a look at NY State for example. Some of the highest taxes in the nation and what are the people with money doing as well as those who are working class and struggling to find economic opportunity? They are moving out of the state. https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/n-y-no-1-losing-residents-move-states-article-1.3712413

The federal government is taking in record amounts of taxes and we are in record debt. We have s spending problem, it isnt an issue with not getting enough money from the rich.

Vox consistently writes favorably about Left-leaning policies and never includes a Right-leaning perspective. https://www.allsides.com/news-source/vox-news-media-bias

If they gave more than one perspective or viewpoint I'd take them more seriously.

Personally I don't care if the source is left, right or center leaning. I know depending on what way they lean they'll use wording that that will be more to my liking etc. I care more that they are high or very high accuracy, are well sourced and that they pass fact checks. I just want my sources to actually you know tell the truth based on actual provable facts.

[tim_m]

The difference is that the ATTEMPT to meddle in the 2016 election by foreign nations happened under the Obama administration so the responsibilities fall at their feet.  That being said NEITHER side has clean hands in their attempts to allow these foreign entities to, at the very least, disparage their opponent.

I'm aware. But the fact remains that it happened and people are upset about the wrong things (IMHO).




/jarmo

And Obama did do something about it. He wanted to do more but he was stone walled by McConnell. Then Trump undid everything Obama did in regards to what Obama was able to do in response to the Russians meddling.

Exactly this.  Reports started coming in early in the summer before the election. 

His administration issued an official statement about a month before the election, warning voters about the fake news invasion and the Russians attempts to interfere:

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/10/07/joint-statement-department-homeland-security-and-office-director-national

Obama also had his national intelligence agencies engaged in an active measures campaign to stop it.

AFTER the election, Obama commissioned a report, from his intelligence agencies, to enumerate the actions that the Russians took, in expectation this would be used as a "lessons learned" report, so we could fix future elections.

He also tried to do more, using the Gang of eight (since much of the specifics were classified) but Mitch and Paul refused to do anything about it in Congress. 

The problem with holding Obama responsible is....both chambers of the legislature were also held by Republicans.  He couldn't get any legislative measures taken without their help...and they weren't willing to help. 

IMO Ryan and McConnell should be held culpable.

[GypsySoul]

The problem with holding Obama responsible is....both chambers of the legislature were also held by Republicans.  He couldn't get any legislative measures taken without their help...and they weren't willing to help. 

Collusion much?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHmyKksPois

http://www.euronews.com/ It was meant to be a private chat on the sidelines of the Seoul nuclear security summit.

But when Barack Obama told Dmitry Medvedev he would have "more flexibility" on difficult issues like missile defence after the US election, TV cameras were rolling.

As he leaned towards his Russian counterpart, the US President was overhead saying: "This is my last election ... After my election I will have more flexibility."

"I understand your message about space," replied Medvedev, who will hand over Russia's presidency to Vladimir Putin in May. "I will transmit this information to Vladimir."

The US leader has defended his comments, ahead of the November poll, insisting they reflect a political reality that "everybody understands."

Obama's Republican rivals back home however have expressed alarm, amid claims he is too open to concessions to Russia.

[tim_m]

Yeah cause compromising on missiles is the same as asking the Russians to interfere in our elections

[pilferk]

The problem with holding Obama responsible is....both chambers of the legislature were also held by Republicans.  He couldn't get any legislative measures taken without their help...and they weren't willing to help. 

Collusion much?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHmyKksPois

http://www.euronews.com/ It was meant to be a private chat on the sidelines of the Seoul nuclear security summit.

But when Barack Obama told Dmitry Medvedev he would have "more flexibility" on difficult issues like missile defence after the US election, TV cameras were rolling.

As he leaned towards his Russian counterpart, the US President was overhead saying: "This is my last election ... After my election I will have more flexibility."

"I understand your message about space," replied Medvedev, who will hand over Russia's presidency to Vladimir Putin in May. "I will transmit this information to Vladimir."

The US leader has defended his comments, ahead of the November poll, insisting they reflect a political reality that "everybody understands."

Obama's Republican rivals back home however have expressed alarm, amid claims he is too open to concessions to Russia.

Referring to this as collusion means you don't understand what collusion is (and you probably watch too much Fox News). 

Negotiating (as the sitting president), or choosing to push off negotiations until he's NOT in the middle of an election cycle, on a missile defense system isn't, by any stretch, collusion.  It's alerting your negotiating partner of a political reality. AT A SUMMIT ON THAT EXACT TOPIC!

Working with a foreign government to try to win an election IS. Asking a foreign power for assistance (and meeting to accept dirt on your political foe) in that election IS. Depending on, and focusing on, information STOLEN by that foreign power IS.  Even if you are doing so without conspiring or coordinating those efforts.  What Trump did might not have been illegal, but that doesn't mean they were acceptable (and, historically, there have been documented benefits to both parties...something not apparent in your failed Obama example).  We have the facts in the Mueller report, in black and white....and some relatively easy to assume redactions having to do with Wikileaks and the Stone trial.

You are essentially advocating the sitting president should have no power to negotiate a deal as they see fit...while supporting a president who has taken (I would say stolen) historical powers for the executive branch, especially on that front (overruling sanctions imposed by Congress, for example).  And who has said (and done) much worse in his interactions with Russia, Saudi, and potentially NK.  And while this president has taken a beating over those actions, to my knowledge no one has insinuated he wasn't within his rights to take them.

So no...what Obama did is not collusion.  Or conspiracy to commit election fraud. Or anything to do with what Tim and I were talking about.  It's a great example of a failed attempt at "whataboutism", though. And a great example of conservative propaganda with no basis in facts.

I'd also point out that, if this is the most offensive (or scandalous) thing you have caught Obama say on a hot mic....it ALSO doesn't remotely compare to what the guy you voted for has said on a hot mic.  It's not even as bad as the things he's said on a live mic in front of live cameras.

[pilferk]

Yeah cause compromising on missiles is the same as asking the Russians to interfere in our elections

AT A SUMMIT DESIGNED TO NEGOTIATE MISSILE DEFENSE!

He basically said: "Look, I only have so much power, here.  I have a Republican Congress breathing down my neck and I'm in a dogfight of an election.  I have to be very politically careful while this election is going on.  Once it's over...since I'm a lame duck after this election...we can try to make more progress".

This is every president, ever, in their second term.  EVERY PRESIDENT since term limits have been a thing has stretched a bit more, and flexed their political muscle a bit more, during their second term when not faced with another election.  Those comments weren't collusion...they were literally a statement of history.  History any dolt (and I'm talking about the Russians, here) can figure out by cracking a US History book.  And somehow, I think the Russian leadership is pretty well aware that 2nd term US presidents have a little more wiggle room.

Unless you are Trump, and you fancy yourself King.

AND, AND, AND....get this, Tim: After the election, Obama went forward with the missile defense system with very few concessions to the Russians.  And by "very few", I mean...almost zero. Certainly nothing so favorable as to give any negotiator pause, and certainly nothing that looked like a sweetheart deal.  So....all that "collusion" got the Russians...nothing in terms of concessions after the election.  Yup...thats what Republicans call collusion.  I think we now know the issue: They don't understand the concept. 

[damnthehaters]

Who said trump NEVER did anything immoral or wrong? No one that i am aware of.

No one here. But these people exist I'm sure.

Just like people who immediately believed that the report said he's complete innocent of everything just because he said so.

All you have to do is look at his actions and that alone should make you suspicious of anything he says. But for some, that doesn't matter. They voted for him, he was chosen by God so he's innocent no matter what.




/jarmo

People of all kinds exist Jarmo...🤔. And where is the “chosen by God” thing coming from?

Of course they’re cult like people who support Trump...just like the cult like people who defend any democrat....or those cult likes who defend GNR any chance they get..😉

[damnthehaters]

no collusion. no obstruction (as noted in the report, how can you have obstruction for a crime that never happened in the first place).

Yeah, it's the big bad leftist media that's after him. He never did anything immoral or wrong....

Joe Biden on the other hand! Oh my God!





/jarmo

I believe this is a snide comment...😁  Honestly Jarmo, if you don’t believe the media treats Trump differently than Democratic presidents before him, or even most Republican ones...I’m in shock.  Even many who “hate” the man, have acknowledged this.  There is no denying it.  You saw how the media would spin things with GNR over the years and make up lies, right?  Big reason was because Axl would attack the media for their lies and bullshit.  Then the media got even worse.  I was introduced to the media’s bullshit from being a GNR fan.  They are a disgrace to our country.  They don’t just report the story or the facts, they give us their biased opinions, own lies, and theories. Trump has done the exact same thing by attacking them, but you think it’s all for not?  I’m not saying anything Trump has ever said or done was never a problem or wrong, but much of what he has said or done does gets twisted.  You defended GNR, and you were correct in doing so most of the time.  Why can’t you see how the media treats Trump?  Because you hate him?  If so, doesn’t mean they don’t treat him unfairly.  I mean, their reaction to the Meuller report for example was sadness and disbelief...lol. Almost as if they WANTED him to be found guilty.  Which is very strange to me.  They have the same reaction when a Democratic President is found guilty of something.  However, that’s when they are  FOUND GUILTY...🤔

[PermissionToLand]

What a surprise, Trump supporter refuses to read anything that doesn't confirm his ideology.

Media Bias Fact Check says of Vox:

Factual Reporting: HIGH

Huh...

You have no problem with 83% of the benefits going to the top 1% in a time of the GREATEST INEQUALITY SINCE THE GILDED AGE?

And you ask why I question your intelligence...

Top 1% pay almost half the taxes. https://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/13/top-1-pay-nearly-half-of-federal-income-taxes.html

Regarding the effect of raising taxes...Take a look at NY State for example. Some of the highest taxes in the nation and what are the people with money doing as well as those who are working class and struggling to find economic opportunity? They are moving out of the state. https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/n-y-no-1-losing-residents-move-states-article-1.3712413

The federal government is taking in record amounts of taxes and we are in record debt. We have s spending problem, it isnt an issue with not getting enough money from the rich.

Vox consistently writes favorably about Left-leaning policies and never includes a Right-leaning perspective. https://www.allsides.com/news-source/vox-news-media-bias

If they gave more than one perspective or viewpoint I'd take them more seriously.

First of all, 45% was a PROJECTION, which did not come true. In 2014, they actually paid 39.5%.

But what are you leaving out on purpose? Oh yes, that they have 42% of the wealth. They also make 54% of all wealth from capital gains, which is taxed at a lower rate than actual work.

And more importantly, while the bottom 80% only own 7% of the wealth, they are expected to pay 15% of all income taxes according to your own source.

States are not comparable to a country. That is quite an elementary misunderstanding of a very fundamental aspect of the discussion here...

But you should read the very first sentence of your own source:

New York over the past year continued to lose more residents to other states than it gained — even as the overall population grew slightly thanks to a continued influx of immigrants, Census data shows.

Also, your own source tells us that the main reason for the outflux was not taxes but lack of affordable housing. Which is the result of a supply and demand system of real estate. There are high real estate prices in NY because there is high demand to live there. Your narrative falls apart very quickly under any level of scrutiny, you know.

Also, your article cites its source as Empire Center, a right wing think tank. I thought you don't trust sources with a known political bias? Hmm...

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Empire_Center_for_Public_Policy

To quote someone whose concern for impartiality is sincere, "If they gave more than one perspective or viewpoint, I'd take them more seriously. "

I suppose you have a "highly factual" rated source of your own that discredits Vox's statistics, then? Because if not, you are just going very far out of your way to make a cheap character assassination fallacy and dodging having to actually respond to the argument...

[jarmo]

And where is the “chosen by God” thing coming from?

One example: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47066659


The Republican being all "upset" that Democrats are going after the president. Something ironic about that considering how much time Fox News and so on spent on going after Obama, and the current president even took part in this conspiracy theory about a birth certificate. Not to mention how eager they were to impeach Bill Clinton....





/jarmo