Donald Trump & 2016 Election

[pilferk]

There's no scenario where Trump is innocent period. We know he ordered people to do things but they failed to follow orders. Just because they didn't doesn't absolve him of the crime whether it was obstruction or collusion. If I try to hire a hitman and he doesn't follow through that doesn't make me not guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.

Even on collusion, the report is not a total exoneration. Not even close.  The report basically says there is some evidence of conspiracy but they were PREVENTED from gathering further evidence (because people lied, people withheld evidence, and people were "unavailable" to provide requested evidence). In black and white, the report acknowledges that just because they were unable to gather enough evidence doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist.
 They were just prevented from doing their jobs via what they see as a concerted effort to obstruct their investigation.  From the evidence they DID have, it didn't prove there was ENOUGH direct coordination between the Russian government and Trumps campaign to recommend action.

That's not exoneration.  That's "It sure looks like SOMETHING was going on...and there sure were a LOT of questionable interactions between Russia and the campaign....but we don't have enough to prove intent.  And we don't have enough DIRECT interaction with the Russian government to uphold the coordination piece of the legal definition of conspiracy".

To use your analogy:  Trump met with a LOT of the hitmans friends.  They had some questionable conversations.  One of Trumps friends gave some stuff to one of the hitmans friends.  And someone Trump didn't like ended up dead.  We just don't have Trump handing over the money, or directly asking for the hit.

Legally, it's gonna be hard to prove Trump hired the hitman...but there is certainly some indications that Trump might have hired the hitman. 

The investigation didn't exonerate Trump in terms of conspiracy.  It just said they can't PROVE conspiracy. And largely they felt the reason they couldn't prove it is because of the obstruction that happened.  Mueller says it outright...with both the conspiracy and obstruction charges: If we could rule out that they occurred, we would categorically say so.  We aren't saying that.

And on obstruction, it's clear Mueller believes obstruction occurred and simply feels, as a institutional conservative, that he can't indict a sitting president. He lays out a clear roadmap for congress to follow for impeachment, and says in pretty uncertain terms that he feels that's the only remedy.

He also says, in a footnote, that once a president leaves office, he can be indicted.  Even if he leaves office via impeachment.

Mueller pounds the law, over and over again, linking his findings to the legal frameworks for both charges.  On conspiracy, he shows exactly how (and why) they were just short (and it's pretty narrow...it rests wholly on coordination, really) of meeting the legal definitions for indictment.  And he lays out, in no uncertain terms, a clear case of obstruction...which he felt may have directly influenced their ability to complete the legal framework for conspiracy. There is little doubt left, after reading the report, that if this investigation wasn't related to the president, Trump would be facing an indictment today. 

You can't actually read this report (and not just depend on Fox for your summary) and come away with the impression this is any sort of exoneration.  Not if you're being at all reasonable.  It's VERY clear what its saying. Mueller even departs, in places, from his standard legalese, to make sure his words are VERY clear, and VERY apparent to the American people.  And no matter how many times Trump and his supporters (aka sycophants) claim to be "winning" or that it's an "exoneration" or that there was "no obstruction and no collusion", it's not going to be true.  And now everyone NOT swinging from Trumps nut sack can see it.

Barr and Trump controlled the message for 26 days (during which Trumps poll numbers didn't really budge)....but the truth is out now.  Not that his supporters are at all concerned with the truth.  But the 60% of people who actually think he did something wrong now know....he did something wrong. And he did some incredibly shady things that might or might not have been illegal (and some things that almost certainly were).  And I suspect the number of people who think he did something wrong (considering about 12% were undecided) will come up a bit....leaving the hardcore Trumpians (that 38%) exactly where they have been for the last 5 years: On the wrong side of the truth, and on the wrong side of history.

[jarmo]

Of course the guy who asked a foreign nation to publish illegally obtained e-mails would never do anything illegal! Duh! After all, God chose him.

He's busy building the wall.... And collecting money from Mexico for it.

That Honest Donald sure keeps winning and winning.... 



/jarmo

[tim_m]

There's no scenario where Trump is innocent period. We know he ordered people to do things but they failed to follow orders. Just because they didn't doesn't absolve him of the crime whether it was obstruction or collusion. If I try to hire a hitman and he doesn't follow through that doesn't make me not guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.

Even on collusion, the report is not a total exoneration. Not even close.  The report basically says there is some evidence of conspiracy but they were PREVENTED from gathering further evidence (because people lied, people withheld evidence, and people were "unavailable" to provide requested evidence). In black and white, the report acknowledges that just because they were unable to gather enough evidence doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist.
 They were just prevented from doing their jobs via what they see as a concerted effort to obstruct their investigation.  From the evidence they DID have, it didn't prove there was ENOUGH direct coordination between the Russian government and Trumps campaign to recommend action.

That's not exoneration.  That's "It sure looks like SOMETHING was going on...and there sure were a LOT of questionable interactions between Russia and the campaign....but we don't have enough to prove intent.  And we don't have enough DIRECT interaction with the Russian government to uphold the coordination piece of the legal definition of conspiracy".

To use your analogy:  Trump met with a LOT of the hitmans friends.  They had some questionable conversations.  One of Trumps friends gave some stuff to one of the hitmans friends.  And someone Trump didn't like ended up dead.  We just don't have Trump handing over the money, or directly asking for the hit.

Legally, it's gonna be hard to prove Trump hired the hitman...but there is certainly some indications that Trump might have hired the hitman. 

The investigation didn't exonerate Trump in terms of conspiracy.  It just said they can't PROVE conspiracy. And largely they felt the reason they couldn't prove it is because of the obstruction that happened.  Mueller says it outright...with both the conspiracy and obstruction charges: If we could rule out that they occurred, we would categorically say so.  We aren't saying that.

And on obstruction, it's clear Mueller believes obstruction occurred and simply feels, as a institutional conservative, that he can't indict a sitting president. He lays out a clear roadmap for congress to follow for impeachment, and says in pretty uncertain terms that he feels that's the only remedy.

He also says, in a footnote, that once a president leaves office, he can be indicted.  Even if he leaves office via impeachment.

Mueller pounds the law, over and over again, linking his findings to the legal frameworks for both charges.  On conspiracy, he shows exactly how (and why) they were just short (and it's pretty narrow...it rests wholly on coordination, really) of meeting the legal definitions for indictment.  And he lays out, in no uncertain terms, a clear case of obstruction...which he felt may have directly influenced their ability to complete the legal framework for conspiracy. There is little doubt left, after reading the report, that if this investigation wasn't related to the president, Trump would be facing an indictment today. 

You can't actually read this report (and not just depend on Fox for your summary) and come away with the impression this is any sort of exoneration.  Not if you're being at all reasonable.  It's VERY clear what its saying. Mueller even departs, in places, from his standard legalese, to make sure his words are VERY clear, and VERY apparent to the American people.  And no matter how many times Trump and his supporters (aka sycophants) claim to be "winning" or that it's an "exoneration" or that there was "no obstruction and no collusion", it's not going to be true.  And now everyone NOT swinging from Trumps nut sack can see it.

Barr and Trump controlled the message for 26 days (during which Trumps poll numbers didn't really budge)....but the truth is out now.  Not that his supporters are at all concerned with the truth.  But the 60% of people who actually think he did something wrong now know....he did something wrong. And he did some incredibly shady things that might or might not have been illegal (and some things that almost certainly were).  And I suspect the number of people who think he did something wrong (considering about 12% were undecided) will come up a bit....leaving the hardcore Trumpians (that 38%) exactly where they have been for the last 5 years: On the wrong side of the truth, and on the wrong side of history.

So we get to say I told you so if Mueller indicts Trump the very first day he's no longer president?

[pilferk]

So we get to say I told you so if Mueller indicts Trump the very first day he's no longer president?

I'm not sure that will ever happen.  But Mueller's opinion is that it COULD happen.  Which, IMHO, means Trump is going to do everything in his power to NOT leave office.  If he loses in 2020 (and I'm pretty sure he's not going to be impeached by the Senate, so...)...I think that his response and actions are going to be VERY interesting. Especially if that sentiment is shared by certain sections of the justice department.

Also, I think, based on the facts in evidence and the contents of the report (which Trump said totally exonerated him and now says contains total bullshit), we can say "I told you so", now. There was, by the legal definition, obstruction of justice. I don't think there's really any debate on that, based on whats in the report and the ACTUAL law (and now what Repubs WISH the law was). Mueller doesn't seem to, either.  But sure, we can wait, too.

And those that preached "total exoneration, no collusion, no obstruction" should probably unspike that football. Because after reading the ACTUAL report, they're not looking so credible (or reasonable, or objective, or truthful, or.....well, you get the picture).

[pilferk]

Of course the guy who asked a foreign nation to publish illegally obtained e-mails would never do anything illegal! Duh! After all, God chose him.

He's busy building the wall.... And collecting money from Mexico for it.

That Honest Donald sure keeps winning and winning.... 



/jarmo

And thats the thing, jarmo.

He's now preaching (after saying the report totally exonerated him for 26 days) that the report written by "Crazy Mueller" is full of "bullshit".

I mean...who are we more likely to believe:

The men who have been generally truthful, acted mostly within our governmental norms, and who RESIGNED ON PRINCIPAL because of what this President was doing

OR

The guy who demonstrably, absolutely, undeniably lies EVERY SINGLE DAY, every time he speaks?

He does.  There's no argument to it.  He lies every day.

His supporters choose the liar.  Plain and simple.

[sandman]

no collusion. no obstruction (as noted in the report, how can you have obstruction for a crime that never happened in the first place).

LIBERALS: "But look at all this detailed innuendo!" 

you also gotta love liberals screaming about "honesty" and "obstruction" when they all voted for Hillary, BleachBit extraordinaire. 

[pilferk]

And the lead might actually be getting buried:

The Russians interfered.  They did it specifically to get Trump elected.  And they expected to get benefit from it.

We also now know this: Trump, and his administration, have done NO BETTER (and I would say much worse) than what conservatives have tried to hang round Hillary's neck.  Its all in the report. Lying, destroying communications, and refusing to testify. Plain as day.  And, in this case, not out of ignorance, stupidity, or bad judgement. Out of a desire to obstruct justice (and it's a good thing that obstruction doesn't ACTUALLY, LEGALLY, require a related crime....for obvious reasons.  Because if you are successful in obstructing an investigation....sometimes you can't charge for the crime...like here.  That's what the law says! Again, Mueller pounding the law over and over!). It's amazing what READING the report gets you vs listening to Fox (or any, really) media coverage gets you.

And yet: One of the big pushes on conservative media is doing the "whataboutism" for Hillary, right now, seemingly blind to the fact THAT CONSERVATIVES VOTED FOR A GUY WHO DID AS MUCH OR WORSE WHILE IN OFFICE! Talk about hypocritical! Hillary is the LAST thing they should be bringing up right now, given the obvious parallels! Again, its all right there, in black and white, in the report. The big difference? Hillary isn't president, isn't running for any office at the moment, and has basically been out of politics for closing in on 3 years.  Donnie IS the President and he IS running for office. They love their liar in chief, come hell or high water, though.

"LOCK HIM UP", right?

 

You have no further to look than the president's own twitter feed to see how damning this report is to him. He's positively unhinged (and it's actually FUNNY to watch). The truth is now actually out there.  And he knows it.  He has to spin so much he's gonna puke to try to keep his base from looking too close.  They won't.  They don't want to. 

[jarmo]

no collusion. no obstruction (as noted in the report, how can you have obstruction for a crime that never happened in the first place).

Yeah, it's the big bad leftist media that's after him. He never did anything immoral or wrong....

Joe Biden on the other hand! Oh my God!





/jarmo

[sandman]

no collusion. no obstruction (as noted in the report, how can you have obstruction for a crime that never happened in the first place).

Yeah, it's the big bad leftist media that's after him. He never did anything immoral or wrong....

Joe Biden on the other hand! Oh my God!





/jarmo

Who said trump NEVER did anything immoral or wrong? No one that i am aware of.

I like creepy Joe. He’s a guaranteed winner in 2020. I have family members that told me last night they would vote for him. These family members r independents who voted for trump. The powerful left wingers do not like him. I believe they orchestrated the BS claims against him. It was all left wingers accusing him of wrongdoing. Everyone i heard from on the right thinks it is ridiculous. These women came out of the woodwork within a few days of each other (sounds familiar, no?).

[PermissionToLand]

questioning why i'm not banned is hilarious.

someone disagrees with you so you want to shut down their ability to voice their opinions. truly classic stuff, and a first in these threads (at least from what I have seen).

sadly, this is exactly what is going on in America right now. WAY too many liberals believe alternative views should be squashed (ironically, they will call conservatives fascists in the same breath as saying their opinions should be banned). and now we have it right here on HTGTH. 

Why? You're a troll. You know this.

You don't disagree, you gaslight and lie through your teeth. Again, you're a troll. You don't want honest discussion because you know your bullshit falls apart instantly, so you use cheap rhetorical tricks to argue in bad faith. Just like somebody who shows up to a town hall to scream and smear feces on the wall, you are unwelcome in adult society.

This very post proves my point. So thank you for owning yourself, "rightard". 

[tim_m]

no collusion. no obstruction (as noted in the report, how can you have obstruction for a crime that never happened in the first place).

Yeah, it's the big bad leftist media that's after him. He never did anything immoral or wrong....

Joe Biden on the other hand! Oh my God!





/jarmo

Who said trump NEVER did anything immoral or wrong? No one that i am aware of.

I like creepy Joe. He’s a guaranteed winner in 2020. I have family members that told me last night they would vote for him. These family members r independents who voted for trump. The powerful left wingers do not like him. I believe they orchestrated the BS claims against him. It was all left wingers accusing him of wrongdoing. Everyone i heard from on the right thinks it is ridiculous. These women came out of the woodwork within a few days of each other (sounds familiar, no?).

We may not agree much ideologically or policy wise but I'm with you on this. I believe if Biden runs he will be president elect November 2020. The accusations if you can even call them that are ridiculous. It cheapens those who have experienced real sexual harassment and assault.

[PermissionToLand]

And now we have conservatives losing their shit over Ilhan Omar's latest comments that they've taken out of context to fit their own bigoted narrative and Trump using them against her in a twitter post causing death threats.

I believe she should be criticized for her comments. they were OFFENSIVE. and i'm glad Trump exposed her.

criticizing public figures when they make offensive comments is not incitement.

No, according to you, it's "INFRINGING FREE SPEECH!!!!"

Speaking of tax day, I wrote a check for under $100 yesterday for taxes.  Last year the check was $5K.

I made more than the previous year and paid less. And do not net 6 figures so I'm far from rich. 

So I cant buy into the Trumps tax plan benefits millionaire and billionaires bullshit that the left is trying to sell.

Are you mentally impaired? Nobody said it ONLY affected the rich. The FACT is that the top 1% gets 83% of the gains from the Trump Tax Scam.

Educate yourself, for the love of God:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/18/16791174/republican-tax-bill-congress-conference-tax-policy-center

Right now, I find Mayor Pete the most interesting candidate...but that may change as we go down the road.  Biden is perfectly fine.

Not that my opinion on primary candidates makes any difference.  As an indie in CT, we don't get to vote in primaries unless we do what Bernie does....declare a party and then leave afterwards...which takes about 6 months "round trip". 

I found Pete attractive until I read this Current Affairs article:

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/03/all-about-pete

Beto gave less than 1/3 of 1% of his household income to charity. that's pathetic. absolutely pathetic. he gave $1,166 to charity on 2018 income of $370,000. 

Bernie gave 3% of his $566,000 income to charity. he's a millionaire so that is kinda low as well.

it's well known that conservatives give more to charities than liberals. studies also show that it has nothing to do with income levels either. but I still would have thought liberals at the higher income levels would donate more. I guess not. so much for helping the less fortunate.

How much does Trump give?

Bueller?

That's because conservatives give to "charities" like churches and the Salvation Army which are just as corrupt and perverted as they are and only help people in extremely limited ways, under the condition of furthering their agenda. Private charities have never in history met the needs of society and they never will because people are fundamentally greedy. It's the tragedy of the commons, something you would know about if you weren't so hopelessly ignorant.

Like the old saying goes, when u have the facts and/or the law, pound the facts/law. When u don’t have the facts/law, pound the table.

Lots of libs pounding the table right now. 

The russia hoax was good for the dems. But they should move on. The cult-like followers of this scam will vote against trump no matter what. But if they keep harping on this, casual observers will be turned off. They should thank mueller for staying quiet until after the mid-terms, and start focusing on policy. And i wouldnt lead with late term abortion.

Trump and his supporters r getting another week of celebrations. What a way to kick off the weekend! Yes, winning is fun!!!

LOL, I love that this followed Pilferk's excellent post because it highlights how utterly full of shit and hypocritical you are. He makes an intelligent comment and you come in and pound the table. You just can't help but make an ass of yourself, can you?

If you think falling just shy of treason is "winning" you really are a treasonous scumbag. Why do you hate America? If you don't like it, you can GET OUT.

What have the Dems done in the house since taking power 100 some odd days ago? Not much. They have no vision or governing agenda, they are a mess. Even if they pass a bill that dies when it lands in the senate at least we'd know what they stand for. ( Other than going after Trump)

Not much?  Only if you're not paying attention.

Lets see...here's some examples:

Stronger gun background checks that eliminate the gun show loop hole.
HR1 (limiting soft money in campaigns again)
Ethics and elections bill
Anti-corruption bill
Revival of Net Neutrality bill
A plan (put out in late March) to expand health care coverage
Equality act
Voting Rights Bill
Condemnation of participation in the War in Yemen (aka Saudi).
And currently working on HR6 to protect dreamers

And a BUNCH of other stuff.  All pretty much DOA in the Senate. And, by the by, all things that poll INCREDIBLY well for them.

In short: THEY ARE doing stuff.  I'm not sure why you're not aware (I suspect, but I'm not sure) of what it is, but they are actively GOVERNING.  Or trying to. Mitch ain't gonna actually let any of those bills come to a vote...which is entirely the point.

To say they aren't, or they have no agenda, is just patently untrue.

They have probably the clearest, and most well planned, agenda that the Dems have had in 20 years (at least since the early Clinton years).

Also...just a note: The House is actually only "in session" for about 118 days in all of 2019.   Sad, but true.

And yet we all know he will be right back here again claiming the Dems have done nothing, which brings me back to my point; why are these trolls not banned?

no collusion. no obstruction (as noted in the report, how can you have obstruction for a crime that never happened in the first place).

LIBERALS: "But look at all this detailed innuendo!" 

you also gotta love liberals screaming about "honesty" and "obstruction" when they all voted for Hillary, BleachBit extraordinaire. 

Wow, for the second time now, right after Pilfek lays it all out for you so even a third grader could understand, you prove you are incapable of learning anything.

 

You never cease to entertain with your stupidity.

[sandman]

no collusion. no obstruction (as noted in the report, how can you have obstruction for a crime that never happened in the first place).

Yeah, it's the big bad leftist media that's after him. He never did anything immoral or wrong....

Joe Biden on the other hand! Oh my God!





/jarmo

Who said trump NEVER did anything immoral or wrong? No one that i am aware of.

I like creepy Joe. He’s a guaranteed winner in 2020. I have family members that told me last night they would vote for him. These family members r independents who voted for trump. The powerful left wingers do not like him. I believe they orchestrated the BS claims against him. It was all left wingers accusing him of wrongdoing. Everyone i heard from on the right thinks it is ridiculous. These women came out of the woodwork within a few days of each other (sounds familiar, no?).

We may not agree much ideologically or policy wise but I'm with you on this. I believe if Biden runs he will be president elect November 2020. The accusations if you can even call them that are ridiculous. It cheapens those who have experienced real sexual harassment and assault.

Agree. Your last point is an excellent one.

[PermissionToLand]

A Democratic Senate aide told NBC News, "Here's the question — why are they trying so hard to control the narrative? What are they trying to hide?"

Liz Warren said "To ignore a President’s repeated efforts to obstruct an investigation into his own disloyal behavior would inflict great and lasting damage on this country, and it would suggest that both the current and future Presidents would be free to abuse their power in similar ways. The severity of this misconduct demands that elected officials in both parties set aside political considerations and do their constitutional duty. That means the House should initiate impeachment proceedings against the President of the United States."

[tim_m]

no collusion. no obstruction (as noted in the report, how can you have obstruction for a crime that never happened in the first place).

Yeah, it's the big bad leftist media that's after him. He never did anything immoral or wrong....

Joe Biden on the other hand! Oh my God!





/jarmo

Who said trump NEVER did anything immoral or wrong? No one that i am aware of.

I like creepy Joe. He’s a guaranteed winner in 2020. I have family members that told me last night they would vote for him. These family members r independents who voted for trump. The powerful left wingers do not like him. I believe they orchestrated the BS claims against him. It was all left wingers accusing him of wrongdoing. Everyone i heard from on the right thinks it is ridiculous. These women came out of the woodwork within a few days of each other (sounds familiar, no?).

We may not agree much ideologically or policy wise but I'm with you on this. I believe if Biden runs he will be president elect November 2020. The accusations if you can even call them that are ridiculous. It cheapens those who have experienced real sexual harassment and assault.

Agree. Your last point is an excellent one.

I mean i get that there are people who do not like being touched or really close to you and that it can make you feel uncomfortable etc. Biden should be more mindful of that but nothing he did had any sexual intent, even the women have said it was not sexual.

[jarmo]

Who said trump NEVER did anything immoral or wrong? No one that i am aware of.

No one here. But these people exist I'm sure.

Just like people who immediately believed that the report said he's complete innocent of everything just because he said so.

All you have to do is look at his actions and that alone should make you suspicious of anything he says. But for some, that doesn't matter. They voted for him, he was chosen by God so he's innocent no matter what.




/jarmo

[tim_m]

Who said trump NEVER did anything immoral or wrong? No one that i am aware of.

No one here. But these people exist I'm sure.

Just like people who immediately believed that the report said he's complete innocent of everything just because he said so.

All you have to do is look at his actions and that alone should make you suspicious of anything he says. But for some, that doesn't matter. They voted for him, he was chosen by God so he's innocent no matter what.




/jarmo

Just read any comment section on a news story about something he said or did. Which by the way i consider the cesspool of the internet and you'll see all kinds of ridiculous justifications for shit he says and does on a daily basis.

[jarmo]

A foreign nation meddled with the US elections and people are more upset that the investigation was looking into the current administration's involvement, than the fact that outsiders obviously influenced the election....




/jarmo

[GypsySoul]

A foreign nation meddled with the US elections and people are more upset that the investigation was looking into the current administration's involvement, than the fact that outsiders obviously influenced the election....

/jarmo

The difference is that the ATTEMPT to meddle in the 2016 election by foreign nations happened under the Obama administration so the responsibilities fall at their feet.  That being said NEITHER side has clean hands in their attempts to allow these foreign entities to, at the very least, disparage their opponent.

[COMAMOTIVE]

The fact that Trump refused to acknowledge this meddling and often publicly dismissed the American intelligence services should not be overlooked in all of this either.