Donald Trump & 2016 Election

[pilferk]

Actually I don't come here every day.

I'm aware you don't come here every day.  Read the whole sentence.

WHEN YOU DO (since you have a significant amount of time to make up), and condemn Trumps near daily diatribe, THEN maybe your opinion on this will be taken seriously.  At this point, all you have is silence on the subject.

Besides, you are here often enough that the silence when it comes to Trumps daily rhetoric is deafening (and telling). A VERY occasional "Well, golly...Trump sometimes says stupid things." whispered as a quiet aside doesn't rise to the level you're likely going to try to assert it does, either.  Not when you've gone full hog against the other side.  Remotely commesurate outrage would be a good starting point.

The truth is: You (and most conservatives) want it both ways: You want Trump to be able to be the bully, but when he and his cronies are faced with similar (and much tamer) repurcussions, you want total hands off.

Obvious hypocrisy. And a complete discounting of your "outrage" which is obvious for anyone with a brain to see.

You cant even agree that  harassing people is not a good idea!

Go back and read what I wrote, above. All of it.  Following people around and harassing them is wrong.

Heckling them at a restaurant, or refusing to serve them because you have a moral disagreement with their policy, isn't (at least according to the SCOTUS, as of now).

What Ms. Waters was espousing was holding them accountable.  To make them feel the same kind of pressure they're putting on those who are effected by their policies.

What your dramatic hand wringing and whining and pearl clutching is, is politically driven nonsense...and hypocrisy given who you voted for.  It's that simple.  You can wiggle and squirm and bury your head in the sand, but that's the rub.  Trump supporters, if this gets under their skin, have nowhere to look but the mirror.  They've allowed "their side" to breed incivility and foment this kind of public dialogue....and somehow they expect the other side to sit there, take the barrage of punches, and then offer to cook them dinner (quite literally) and smile about it.

Physically getting into someone's face when they are spending time with their family wont accomplish changing anything in this administration. Trump's policies didn't lead to this, that is a simple and politically convenient conclusion. Its more about stoking the fires of hatred toward him.  The bullying tactics will heat up the rhetoric to the boiling point and if this keeps up, eventually someone is going to get seriously hurt or possibly killed.  Democrats will literally have blood on their hands if this escalates.  ( and not all democrats are for these tactics, a few such as Chuck Schumer have come out against this).

It won't?  Because we seem to be having a pretty serious national dialogue about it.  And there seems to be some Conservatives who REALLY didn't like it. And are REALLY not liking the mirror being held up to their own faces when the discussion gets going. Witness this very thread.

It's not about stoking the fires of "hatred" against ANYONE.  It's about protesting and making a point.  And again, being outraged over this, when Trump, on an almost daily basis, stokes the fires of hatred and divisiveness and rouses the rabble that makes up his basis is almost laugh out loud funny in it's hypocrisy.  Seriously, if you can't see the irony and hypocrisy in that one statement about bullying tactics.......you are willfully putting on blinders, here.  The guy you voted for IS THE BIGGEST BULLY IN THE WORLD. LITERALLY.

As for some dems speaking out....yes, as I said: The dems still want to play by the old rules....and they got their asses handed to them for it (and continue to be the whipping boys/girls in Congress).  They're still trying to operate under the old method of civil disagreement and discourse, thinking that's going to buy them points on the big debate board.  So far.....that's not worked so well for them.  And more and more rank and file dems (and indies) would like to see something a bit more spirited.  Again, I'm not talking about violence or chronic harassment.  I'm talking about exactly the sort of things we saw from the owner of The Red Hen, or those heckling cabinet members in Mexican restaurants.  The things Ms. Waters was ACTUALLY calling for.

But, at least those dems speaking out largely have a history of repudiating this president's rhetoric.  They're consistent, in that regard, at least.  I'd be happy to debate the topic on a deeper level with those with a documented record on that front.  And yes, I agree: Ms. Waters is somewhat hypocritical when she condemns the president's bullying and then fosters a bit of the same as some form of karmic form of protest.  So, if you want to argue that point....I'll agree with you.

The tactics you are claiming to hate were started, and are perpetuated, by the rhetoric coming from the top. The buck stops there.  If you'd like to complain, complain to him, first.  Maybe rethink your votes in November, and in the next presidential election.

OR...be accountable to your voting record and for those votes.  You're certainly not willing to do that in this discussion.  Own your part in all this....in this ecosystem.  I certainly am owning mine, right here....rather than whispering and chuckling about it behind closed doors.

Last, in terms of "blood on dems hands"....do you feel blood on your hands for Charlottesville?  For the rise in LBGTQ and POC directed hate crime that has jumped by double (and sometimes triple) digits around the country since Trump took office? The only bloodshed fueled by rhetoric, so far, has been carried out and perpetuated by right wing conservatives.  That might be something you want to keep in mind when you're doing all this worrying and kvetching.

Just because I voted for Trump doesn't mean my point is less valid.  I await your pretentious response. 

I'm very sorry you find intellectual discourse "pretentious". Perhaps, again, that's part of this whole issue, no?  That conservative leadership wants to shout terrible things, do deplorable things, enact hateful polices....without facing any sort of accountability? Without being accountable to civil, intellectual, discourse or fomenting compromise because those are "dirty words".  Sorry, no dice. If you don't like the means of accountability being proposed, and would prefer a return to more civil methods of protest and discussion, perhaps you should hold that principal close when considering who to vote for?  Because being outraged, and then voting for the guy who does 10x worse on an almost daily basis, don't seem to be compatible positions. Put your vote where your moral compass is pointing, maybe?

And your vote does, rather, disqualify and invalidate your point.  Or, more specifically, your failure to condemn Trump, loudly, and let your constituents and fellow conservatives know his rhetoric is unacceptable, does. 

It completely disqualifies your opinion because you have established a double standard when it comes to behavior.  When it's "your guy", all the bullying and red meat, and calls for violence and imprisonment and banishment are just fine.

Please, by all means point to your volumes of posts on how his rhetoric is uncalled for.  Point to your outrage when he called for his supporters to knock people's blocks off.  Or, I know, when he led the chants of "lock her up" and encouraged his supporters to hack, harass, and harangue Hillary during the election?  Or your outrage at his obsession with Jeff Bezos?  Or his attack of ABC?  Or Harley?  Or, in his response to Ms. Waters, his DIRECT implication for violence?  Where is all this moral outrage and hand wringing when it comes to the side you voted for? If this stuff really gets you going, why were Trumps previous interactions with people like Rosie O'Donnell (and many, many others) not an instant disqualifier for your vote?

Because they were directed at liberals and you thought they were funny?

When the other side calls for a wee bit of civil disobedience and publish shunning, you grab the pearls and opine for civility.  When Sanders lies, bullies the media, calls out private citizens/comanies, and justifies hate and divisiveness from the podium or Trump does all that from Twitter (or on Fox)...you're nowhere to be seen.

Hypocrisy undermines whatever point you're trying to make because you only seem interested in holding "the other side" to whatever that point is.

How about this: Expect the same from the "other side" that you allow YOUR SIDE to dish out. I said it before: You reap what you sow. You want civility? Breed civility and hold those you vote for accountable to that expectation.  You vote for the death of PC? Be prepared to deal with those consequences....all of them.

It's like people who say they want a completely free market. They don't.  They THINK they do, until faced with the actual ramifications of a truly free market with no rules, restrictions, or laws governing that market.

THIS is what the death of PC looks like.  THIS is what you get.  So, by all means, post again talking about how horrified you are and how people just shouldn't behave this way because, by gosh, it just isn't right.  Those poor people deserve some time off, by golly gee.  And the rest of us will look at it, laugh, and know EXACTLY what's going on: You want prey that won't fight back.  Well, the fish are out of the barrel, and some of them have just figured out how to "shoot" back (and that metaphor is completely figurative, so spare me the extra bit of outrage).

[pilferk]

Hmmmmmm........speaking of inflammatory rhetoric inciting ACTUAL harassment and borderline violence:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna888176?__twitter_impression=true

[pilferk]

To watch this president either willfully or ignorantly misunderstand how NATO works is disgusting beyond words. And having him confirm that he actually threatened to pull the US out of NATO is practically treasonous.

The US does not pay for "70% to 90% of NATO".  Not even close.  It's more like 40% (Edit: Last years numbers actually say it's about 25%), which is appropriate given our population.  NATO fees are determined by population, not GDP (that's metric is different for a different "rule") and NOT ONE COUNTRY IS DELINQUENT ON THEIR FEES. The president has not negotiated ANY difference in those fees. Nobody...NOBODY...is paying more or less "toward NATO".

One of the tenets of being a member of NATO is that you spend a certain % of GDP ON YOUR OWN DEFENSE.  Not as a contribution to NATO...but on your own defense budget.  Some countries hit that number, and some don't.  BUT NOT HITTING THAT NUMBER DOESN'T COST NATO ANY MONEY.  I suppose you could argue that, if they were attacked and article 5 had to be invoked and NATO had to run in to defend them that not hitting that number would require other countries to allocate more resources.  But that is a completely different argument (and falls short unless there's actually an attack on one of those countries, and ONLY that country, which NATO has to respond to).  Companies who fall short of that 2% ARE NOT COSTING US TAXPAYERS ONE THIN DIME.  The US is not making up any shortfalls, or directly paying more because of them, or any other stupid thing this president implies or says (lies about).

Countries are NOT paying $33 billion more to NATO.  They have spent 33 billion more on their own defense. Which was all scheduled (and they're largely following that schedule) BEFORE TRUMP TOOK OFFICE.  He's done NOTHING to change that schedule. Zero. Zip. Nada.  And there is no commitment from Nato, despite his implication, to raise that 2% number.

In addition, what's stupid, is the whole metric is flawed. Greece, who is at 2%, spends 75% of their defense budget on debt service and other indirect expenses.  Norway, who spends about 1.5% of their GDP on defense, spends 80% of it on equipment, facilities, weapons, and manpower.

Also: GDP has not gone "way up" since Trump took office. It's averaging 2.4% per quarter, WELL BELOW the "4% or 5%" Trump predicted/promised (it was revised DOWN, FYI, for this past quarter). And nowhere near the "doubling and tripling" he has claimed in recent interviews.  It's slow growth, and....heh....pretty much exactly the same growth rate for Obama's last term.

And last (and certainly least): REAGAN WON WISCONSIN...TWICE!

He lies, and lies, and lies, and lies (and advertises his golf properties). 

[JAEBALL]

To watch this president either willfully or ignorantly misunderstand how NATO works is disgusting beyond words. And having him confirm that he actually threatened to pull the US out of NATO is practically treasonous.

The US does not pay for "70% to 90% of NATO".  Not even close.  It's more like 40%, which is appropriate given our population.  NATO fees are determined by population, not GDP (that's metric is different for a different "rule") and NOT ONE COUNTRY IS DELINQUENT ON THEIR FEES. The president has not negotiated ANY difference in those fees. Nobody...NOBODY...is paying more or less "toward NATO".

One of the tenets of being a member of NATO is that you spend a certain % of GDP ON YOUR OWN DEFENSE.  Not as a contribution to NATO...but on your own defense budget.  Some countries hit that number, and some don't.  BUT NOT HITTING THAT NUMBER DOESN'T COST NATO ANY MONEY.  I suppose you could argue that, if they were attacked and article 5 had to be invoked and NATO had to run in to defend them that not hitting that number would require other countries to allocate more resources.  But that is a completely different argument (and falls short unless there's actually an attack on one of those countries, and ONLY that country, which NATO has to respond to).

Countries are NOT paying $33 billion more to NATO.  They have spent 33 billion more on their own defense.

In addition, what's stupid, is the whole metric is flawed. Greece, who is at 2%, spends 75% of their defense budget on debt service and other non-military expenses.  Norway, who spends about 1.5% of their GDP on defense, spends 80% of it on equipment, facilities, weapons, and manpower.

Also: GDP has not gone "way up" since Trump took office. It's averaging 2.4% per quarter, WELL BELOW the "4% or 5%" Trump predicted/promised (it was revised DOWN, FYI, for this past quarter).  It's slow growth, and....heh....pretty much exactly the same growth rate for Obama's last term.

And last (and certainly least): REAGAN WON WISCONSIN...TWICE!

He lies, and lies, and lies, and lies (and advertises his golf properties).

I don’t really care if you are pro gun, anti abortion, get rid of Obamacare....

But it makes me sick that trump supporters turn a blind eye to his blatant disregard to our allies and cozy’s up with dictators who clearly aided his campaign.

I keep thinking there’s a tipping point ... but he can obviously do and say anything at this point and won’t lose the people who support him still.

[pilferk]

I don’t really care if you are pro gun, anti abortion, get rid of Obamacare....

But it makes me sick that trump supporters turn a blind eye to his blatant disregard to our allies and cozy’s up with dictators who clearly aided his campaign.

I keep thinking there’s a tipping point ... but he can obviously do and say anything at this point and won’t lose the people who support him still.

I totally agree.  There are things we can disagree on, and we can (or we could) try to work toward compromise on those things, but not this.  There just isn't room to wiggle.  If you support dictators, and fascilitate their bad behavior, there is no compromise in that.

As for a tipping point, I think it's become blatantly obvious there IS no tipping point.

Congressional Repubs, in general, are fighting so hard because they recognize that, IF ANY of these accusations stick to Trump, the Republican party is dead. Every one who works for him, everyone who has supported him, every Republican in office will be finished in politics.  And every day they fight, that becomes more and more true. 

There is one thing Trump has said, and has been right:

He could walk out into the middle of fifth avenue, shoot someone, and not lose a single supporter.

It plays out every day in the House (look at today's hearings). It plays out every day in the Senate.  And it especially plays out every day in the general populace.

He does and says deplorable things over and over and over again.  He either lies, or is so willfully ignorant as to appear to lie, over and over and over again.   He supports dictators and hardliners, and ridicules and bullies our allies.  And yet his supporters and those in his party that are in government do nothing.  They don't correct him.  They don't call him out.  They don't substantively and vocally disagree.  They will do logical cartwheels to try to justify it. It's incredible.  Had any other president (and I mean in both parties) done these things, he would be ostracized from his party.  If Obama had done similar thing in his first 18 months, he would have been impeached by the incoming Republican congress, and rightly so. 

And yet...when the opposing side suggests something relatively minor in nature, they howl, clutch their pearls, whip out their fans, and practically "faint" in their feigned outrage.

It's ridiculous, quite frankly.

[tim_m]

Hell just in the last week, he has used racist slurs against Senator Warren, he mocked Metoo, he attacked our NATO allies, attacked London's mayor when he arrived today and he got a "nice" letter from Kim Jung Un. I'm also sick and fucking tired of all this hate this fuckwit is inciting. Not a day goes by  anymore without a news story about some racist shitbag calling the cops on a black person just for being there. I am done with this shit. There was even that one black woman who beat the hell out of a 92 year old Mexican with a brick telling him to go back to his country.

[pilferk]

The interview with the Sun just doubles down on the bombastic, hyperbolic, unbelievable (except his base will) lies.  And snuck in some nationalist, borderline racist, comments, to boot.

GDP has not doubled and tripled.

NATO has not agreed to increase the % of GDP spending it will require.

So. Many. Obvious. Lies.

And crickets from the Republicans.

Edit: And Trump is now calling an interview for which there is an actual audio recording "Fake News". 

[pilferk]

12 Russian Intelligence officers now indicted for hacking the DNC and local state election boards/leadership leading up to the 2016 election.

Definitely not a fat guy living in his mom's basement in the US or someone part of a hacking underground in China.

Announcement will come via Rosenstein in about 15 minutes or so.

[tim_m]

12 Russian Intelligence officers now indicted for hacking the DNC and local state election boards/leadership leading up to the 2016 election.

Definitely not a fat guy living in his mom's basement in the US or someone part of a hacking underground in China.

Announcement will come via Rosenstein in about 15 minutes or so.

But but but it is a witchunt.

[pilferk]

Today, Trump called the press the enemy of the people in his speech.

He literally undermined the First Amendment of the Constitution.

He followed in the footsteps of dictators and fascists before him.

And I bet not one Republican steps up and vocally condemns those comments.  Not one Republican calls those comments what they are: A violation of his oath of office and the vow he took to uphold the Constitution.

[LunsJail]

Today, Trump called the press the enemy of the people in his speech.

He literally undermined the First Amendment of the Constitution.

He followed in the footsteps of dictators and fascists before him.

And I bet not one Republican steps up and vocally condemns those comments.  Not one Republican calls those comments what they are: A violation of his oath of office and the vow he took to uphold the Constitution.

There won't be much condemnation from the Republicans until more of their base starts backing off their Trump support.  Unfortunately his supporters seem to be able to justify/willfully ignore just about anything stupid he does or says.

[tim_m]

I wanna see them defend what he did today basically siding with Putin saying there's no reason to believe they hacked our election.

[pilferk]

I wanna see them defend what he did today basically siding with Putin saying there's no reason to believe they hacked our election.

They already are.....saying it's his poor, fragile ego that won't allow him to acknowledge his win was anything other than a legitimate win (and a HUGE, LANDSLIDE victory by him, no less).

Anything else is unacceptable to his poor psyche.

I mean, I GUESS that's better than "treasonous lout", but.....still not something that would install faith in a leader, but.....

Spin. Spin. Spin. Spin.

[tim_m]

I wanna see them defend what he did today basically siding with Putin saying there's no reason to believe they hacked our election.

They already are.....saying it's his poor, fragile ego that won't allow him to acknowledge his win was anything other than a legitimate win (and a HUGE, LANDSLIDE victory by him, no less).

Anything else is unacceptable to his poor psyche.

I mean, I GUESS that's better than "treasonous lout", but.....still not something that would install faith in a leader, but.....

Spin. Spin. Spin. Spin.

Anyone buying his statement today that he misspoke?

[pilferk]

Anyone buying his statement today that he misspoke?

I mean...sure.  A ton of people, I'm sure.  The ones who will engage in as much self deception and mental gymnastics as they have to in order to justify ANYTHING he says or does.

But reasonable people? Probably not.

You can not listen to the full comments and context of that event/speech/etc and think that it all hinges on that one word.  There's just no way.

BUT, if you do, and you're reading this, I have a both a bridge in Brooklyn and some prime real estate in Florida both looking for buyers. Serious inquiries only. HMU.

[JAEBALL]

Today he already went back on his turnaround from yesterday.

He was asked if Russia continues to meddle and he said no.

It’s just a bad dream all around.

[tim_m]

I've noticed even the Trump supporters here are quiet since the shit hit the proverbial fan.

[tim_m]

Anyone else want to smack Paul Ryan after his non answer when asked what they should do in response to what Trump said?

[Dr. Blutarsky]

I've noticed even the Trump supporters here are quiet since the shit hit the proverbial fan.

Ive been quiet since no one here seems to want a different point of view.

But if you want mine, the Helsinki summit was Trump's worst moment to date as President. And he isn't doing an effective job at walking it back. All he had to say was that we wont tolerate any interference in our election process whether it is from Russia or any foreign power.  Trump looked weak.

But calling it treason is ridiculous. Dems are famous for overplaying their hand.

[pilferk]

Ive been quiet since no one here seems to want a different point of view.

A different point of view? Sure.

Sycophantic hypocrisy fueled by obvious tribalism, containing even more obvious double standards and overly dramatic histronics?

I mean, you do you, but yes....that's gonna get pointed out. 

...BUT the LIBS are the "snowflakes". Right? 

But if you want mine, the Helsinki summit was Trump's worst moment to date as President. And he isn't doing an effective job at walking it back. All he had to say was that we wont tolerate any interference in our election process whether it is from Russia or any foreign power.  Trump looked weak.

Wow.  That's Day 1!  I mean, it's not full voiced criticism, but at least it's not a "party line talking points" excuse!  Go ahead...say what you mean, here: He either A) massively fucked up, to the point it makes it look like he's a moron and out of his depth in diplomacy at this level AND he is doing a horrific job at damage control OR B) he's doing it intentionally, and the guy is sympathetic to Putin and Russia (for whatever reason) and is more interested in his relationship with Putin than he is with his duty as President. 

Because it HAS to be A or B, here.  There's really no other option, given the way he's handled this.  There is literally NO DOUBT it has to be one of those two things.

And, I suspect (contrary to your suggestion...they've never shied away from debate before), the fact that from NATO to Helsinki, Trumps actions are actually pretty much indefensible has a LOT to do with why the conservative voices have gone a bit silent.

Every day for the past week Trump has fueled every worry that every person who screamed that voting for this guy was a horrific mistake for our country, and our foreign policy.  And causing those that "held their nose" and voted for him to second guess that vote.

But calling it treason is ridiculous. Dems are famous for overplaying their hand.

He is getting cozy with our enemies and bullying our allies.

He is making excuses (and then backtracking, and then making excuses again) for Russian interference in our election.  Documented, for sure (are we going to finally put to bed the "show us proof they meddled" discussion around here?), meddled.

He is calling the press the enemy of the state, attacking, directly, the first ammendment.

He is (maybe WAS, after today's press briefing?) entertaining the idea of turning over US citizens to Russia for "questioning".

He just invited Putin to the White House in the fall...amid a huge outcry for his handling of Russia.

He is directly undermining NATO, which is our strongest military alliance.

If it's not treason (and I'm not 100% sure it is, either...it's just the only term that seems even close to apt...aid and comfort to the enemy, and all that), and you'd like to use another adjective, I'm up for suggestions.  Have at them. Stupid? Moronic? Disqualifying? Impeachable? What do you think?

Whatever the term that tickles your monkey, at the end of the day, he is actively working against the best interests of this country. Period.  Intentionally or Inadvertently, it's what he's doing.

So, as I have in the past, I ask you this: Were this Obama doing all this shit, what word would you use?  Because I can tell you Repubs used the word "treason" an AWFUL lot when referring to him, for doing a WHOLE LOT LESS.  I suggest maybe they (and you) should adopt the same standard for "your guy".

I know, I'm barking up the wrong tree.  We've already talked, just a couple pages back, about how the double standards work when it's Trump vs a member of the "other tribe"..... Excuses are made for Trump, no matter what he does.

I guess we should evacuate 5th avenue.