Donald Trump & 2016 Election

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Welcome to the Trump/Un summit where they agree not to complete verifiable and irreversible denucleariization. What a fucking waste of time and money.

No one agreed to anything that was unverifiable, you must have this confused with the Iran deal.

 They agreed on the path forward, next the details get worked out.  We will see where it goes from here, but this was a historic first step. 

I for one am hoping this works. A war would really suck.

 
 

 

[pilferk]

Welcome to the Trump/Un summit where they agree not to complete verifiable and irreversible denucleariization. What a fucking waste of time and money.

Yup, it was basically a photo op.  And if people thought the Iran deal was "unverifiable"...they don't actually know what was in that deal.  There was more verification in that deal, CERTAINLY, than there is in anything that came out of this "summit".

I also love conservatives (and I'm not pointing to anyone in this thread, seriously) who talk about Iran being a horrible deal...and then can't actually explain what was in it, or why it was bad.  If you honestly took issue with the Iran deal, you should be FUMING at this "declaration", especially if it's held up as any kind of metric for success.  I doubt we'll see ANY conservatives do that, though.

It was "historic" in that a president shook Kims hand...and got basically nothing for it. Whoopie. I'll give Trump a point for the fact everyone showed up, shook hands, took a picture and played nice. Of course, any president, in the past 40 years, could have had "that" meeting.  They didn't want it, because it totally plays into NK hand. "Doing the details later" makes zero fucking sense.  You hammer that shit out BEFORE you legitimize his regime, give him gravitas on the world stage, and hand him a propaganda win...which is exactly why no other president posed for this photo op. But, you know, whatever.....some people have an odd definition of "historic", I guess.

If something ACTUALLY comes from this, great!  I hope it does. No matter what got us here, any agreement that forestalls nuclear annihilation is good. 

BUT: I trust Trumps "negotiating" skills very little.  He got his photo op and ego stroke.  And as he said, himself, if (when?) things don't work out, he'll get up there in 6 months with an excuse, and not admit he was wrong.

And I trust Kim's willingness to comply to even what little they've stated so far, never mind anything negotiated, even less.  It's a completely meaningless piece of paper he signed today, that gets him a bit of a let up on the pressure.  It's akin to EXACTLY the types of measures he's signed twice before, and backed out on.

FYI: End of term for me...so next couple of weeks will be spent writing papers.  Have fun and don't kill each other.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

This was a meeting between Trump and Kim to see if they could work together and it yielded positive results.  Like i mentioned, we will see where this goes. 

If you are going to compare the Iran deal to the declaration, you arent really comparing one deal to another as we don't have an actual deal yet with NK.  But I think it is safe to say there wont be a secret pallet of $1.7 billion in cash involved.

[tim_m]

We don't but UN got everything he wanted from Trump. He played him like a fiddle. All we have basically is a pinky swear i'll destroy my nukes. I hope this turns into something substantial but i won't be placing any bets. All that happened is Trump gave Un what he wanted. Then gets Trump to go on tv and say how nice and wonderful he is and how much he trusts me. Admits they barely mentions NK human rights violations. Then today goes oh and if this all falls apart i won't admit i was wrong and i'll just make up some bullshit that you and his minions will lap up. I mean what does this guy have to do for you to stop kissing his butt? He's a conman a shyster.

[tim_m]

Welcome to the Trump/Un summit where they agree not to complete verifiable and irreversible denucleariization. What a fucking waste of time and money.

Yup, it was basically a photo op.  And if people thought the Iran deal was "unverifiable"...they don't actually know what was in that deal.  There was more verification in that deal, CERTAINLY, than there is in anything that came out of this "summit".

I also love conservatives (and I'm not pointing to anyone in this thread, seriously) who talk about Iran being a horrible deal...and then can't actually explain what was in it, or why it was bad.  If you honestly took issue with the Iran deal, you should be FUMING at this "declaration", especially if it's held up as any kind of metric for success.  I doubt we'll see ANY conservatives do that, though.

It was "historic" in that a president shook Kims hand...and got basically nothing for it. Whoopie. I'll give Trump a point for the fact everyone showed up, shook hands, took a picture and played nice. Of course, any president, in the past 40 years, could have had "that" meeting.  They didn't want it, because it totally plays into NK hand. "Doing the details later" makes zero fucking sense.  You hammer that shit out BEFORE you legitimize his regime, give him gravitas on the world stage, and hand him a propaganda win...which is exactly why no other president posed for this photo op. But, you know, whatever.....some people have an odd definition of "historic", I guess.

If something ACTUALLY comes from this, great!  I hope it does. No matter what got us here, any agreement that forestalls nuclear annihilation is good. 

BUT: I trust Trumps "negotiating" skills very little.  He got his photo op and ego stroke.  And as he said, himself, if (when?) things don't work out, he'll get up there in 6 months with an excuse, and not admit he was wrong.

And I trust Kim's willingness to comply to even what little they've stated so far, never mind anything negotiated, even less.  It's a completely meaningless piece of paper he signed today, that gets him a bit of a let up on the pressure.  It's akin to EXACTLY the types of measures he's signed twice before, and backed out on.

FYI: End of term for me...so next couple of weeks will be spent writing papers.  Have fun and don't kill each other.

I'd say have fun but it doesn't sound like much fun will be had.

[tim_m]

And that 1.7B was always theirs. We just gave it back to them.

[tim_m]

Now this morning Trump tweets there's no longer a nuclear threat from NK cause of the pinky swear agreement they signed. Is this man really this stupid?

[pilferk]

This was a meeting between Trump and Kim to see if they could work together and it yielded positive results.  Like i mentioned, we will see where this goes. 

If you are going to compare the Iran deal to the declaration, you arent really comparing one deal to another as we don't have an actual deal yet with NK.  But I think it is safe to say there wont be a secret pallet of $1.7 billion in cash involved.

#FakeNews (and debunked).

Also, I was talking/replying to Tim.  I didn't even see your reply til MUCH later (it jumped to the next page and I didn't realize there was even a new page up) but I do think it's amusing I pretty much anticipated the conservative "group think" response.

PS: You were the one who drew the comparisons to the Iran deal, first.  I didn't know it at the time, but...there you go.

[pilferk]

And that 1.7B was always theirs. We just gave it back to them.

I mean....I wouldn't even bother at this point.  Facts don't actually matter.  Witness the right's continued obsession with Uranium One.

[pilferk]

Now this morning Trump tweets there's no longer a nuclear threat from NK cause of the pinky swear agreement they signed. Is this man really this stupid?

Like I said before it even happened:

Trump was going to declare total, complete, and utter victory no matter what.  He's proven time and again: He doesn't have to tell the truth.  He doesn't have to adhere to reality.  His base will believe everything he says. That's his playbook (which is, frighteningly enough, pretty much Kim's, too).

So it's exactly what I expected going in.  It was a glorified photo op with no substance...though, you know, we've now GIVEN NK the cessation of military drills with SK and gotten zippo.

But Kim double super secret promises with both fingers crossed to denuclearize.  Just, you know, don't ask him to verify it.

[pilferk]

And that 1.7B was always theirs. We just gave it back to them.

Kind of.

They ordered (and paid $400 million for) weapons in the late 70's.

"We" never delivered...and froze the trust account that money was in so they couldn't take it back.

They filed suit at a tribunal in the Hague.

We negotiated a settlement that was far less than the amount they were asking for.

Now, they might not have gotten the full amount they asked for (you never know once something goes to litigation, esp when the facts in evidence...they paid, we didn't deliver...aren't in dispute).  And there was a couple offsets we probably could have claimed in that suit that would have reduced the amount Iran was asking for.  But, at the end of the day, we're probably quibbling over 200 to 300 million-ish difference in what we HOPED we'd have to pay (1.4 billion-ish) after the offsets were applied vs what Iran was asking for (4.3 billion-ish) in the suit.

We settled all of it (the suit and offsets) with that payment.  At the end of the day, though, EVERYONE involved knew there was going to need to be a payment from the US to Iran. It was just a matter of how much and when. We paid about 20% more than we hoped to, and Iran got 75% less than they filed for.

Edit: Just based on inflation, that 400 million would be worth about 1.4 billion in today's dollars.  At a competitive interest rate (10.3% rate of return, which was the average S&P 500 from 1975 til 2018) of investment, that money is worth 2.1 billion.

Interestingly enough, if you take the 2.1 billion and apply the offsets we were asking for, from the Hague suit, you get....golly gee....1.7 billion!

[Dr. Blutarsky]

This was a meeting between Trump and Kim to see if they could work together and it yielded positive results.  Like i mentioned, we will see where this goes. 

If you are going to compare the Iran deal to the declaration, you arent really comparing one deal to another as we don't have an actual deal yet with NK.  But I think it is safe to say there wont be a secret pallet of $1.7 billion in cash involved.

#FakeNews (and debunked).

How is this fake news? We did send them the money and you and I helped pay for it.

$1.7-billion payment to Iran was all in cash due to effectiveness of sanctions, White House says   - By Associated Press
Sep 07, 2016

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-iran-payment-cash-20160907-snap-story.html

And what are they doing with the money? It certainly didn't go toward helping their economy or its people.

[pilferk]

This was a meeting between Trump and Kim to see if they could work together and it yielded positive results.  Like i mentioned, we will see where this goes. 

If you are going to compare the Iran deal to the declaration, you arent really comparing one deal to another as we don't have an actual deal yet with NK.  But I think it is safe to say there wont be a secret pallet of $1.7 billion in cash involved.

#FakeNews (and debunked).

How is this fake news? We did send them the money and you and I helped pay for it.

$1.7-billion payment to Iran was all in cash due to effectiveness of sanctions, White House says   - By Associated Press
Sep 07, 2016

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-iran-payment-cash-20160907-snap-story.html

And what are they doing with the money? It certainly didn't go toward helping their economy or its people.

Don't be obtuse.

You know exactly which part is fake news.

But if you want to ignore facts, be my guest.

As for what they used it for, it's irrelevant.  It was their money. Not "ours"  If we used it, we were always going to have to pay interest on it.  They were going to get it one way or the other, anyway.

PS: You may want to READ the article you posted, since it only affirms 400 million in cash was sent and says they are unsure how the other 1.3 billion was transferred.

The $1.7 billion was the settlement of a decades-old arbitration claim between the U.S. and Iran. An initial $400 million of euros, Swiss francs and other foreign currency was delivered on pallets Jan. 17, the same day Tehran agreed to release four American prisoners.
The Obama administration had claimed the events were separate, but recently acknowledged the cash was used as leverage until the Americans were allowed to leave Iran. The remaining $1.3 billion represented estimated interest on the Iranian cash the U.S. had held since the 1970s. The administration had previously declined to say if the interest was delivered to Iran in physical cash, as with the principal, or via a more regular banking mechanism.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

This was a meeting between Trump and Kim to see if they could work together and it yielded positive results.  Like i mentioned, we will see where this goes. 

If you are going to compare the Iran deal to the declaration, you arent really comparing one deal to another as we don't have an actual deal yet with NK.  But I think it is safe to say there wont be a secret pallet of $1.7 billion in cash involved.

#FakeNews (and debunked).

How is this fake news? We did send them the money and you and I helped pay for it.

$1.7-billion payment to Iran was all in cash due to effectiveness of sanctions, White House says   - By Associated Press
Sep 07, 2016

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-iran-payment-cash-20160907-snap-story.html

And what are they doing with the money? It certainly didn't go toward helping their economy or its people.

Don't be obtuse.

You know exactly which part is fake news.

But if you want to ignore facts, be my guest.

As for what they used it for, it's irrelevant.  It was their money. Not "ours"  If we used it, we were always going to have to pay interest on it.  They were going to get it one way or the other, anyway.

PS: You may want to READ the article you posted, since it only affirms 400 million in cash was sent and says they are unsure how the other 1.3 billion was transferred.

Don't be snarky.

You bolded the $1.7 B sentence so that's what it looked like.

No one was holding a gun to our head to fork over that money to a regime that didn't hold power till 1979, so it really didn't belong to the current theocratic government.
 
I did read the article and your statement is total spin on the statement "The administration had previously declined to say if the interest was delivered to Iran in physical cash, as with the principal, or via a more regular banking mechanism." Next paragraph - "The officials said the $1.3 billion was paid in cash on Jan. 22 and Feb. 5."
 
You guys have fun in the echo chamber, I'm heading to work.

[pilferk]

Don't be snarky.

You bolded the $1.7 B sentence so that's what it looked like.

Because that's what it was.

There was no "secret palette of 1.7 billion" and the implication that it was a bribe or somehow improper is all #FakeNews.

As has been debunked, many times, but...you know...hasn't stopped Trump (or the conservative group thinkers) from saying it ad nauseum.

Wait, wait...I know the next lines!!

"Who's gonna pay for the wall?" [MEXICO!]

and then something like:

"Crooooked Hilllllary CLINTON" [lock her up, lock her up]

No one was holding a gun to our head to fork over that money to a regime that didn't hold power till 1979, so it really didn't belong to the current theocratic government.

The Hague was.  The international community was.  We'd stalled for a decade +, due to the regime. And I have no issue with that.  When that regime was looking to change, and become better citizens (or said they were), they wanted their money back. WE OWED THEM MONEY. Period.  At some point, we were going to pay them back.  Longer we wait, the stronger their suit looks, and the more money we eventually have to pay them. At SOME point the Hague is going to step in, and force us to pay...which is a bad look, and could potentially have been a worse outcome.

This way, we settle our debt, get our hostages back, AND get an agreement (I know, you think it was "bad") on denuclearization out of it, eventually.  All for money we were going to HAVE to pay, eventually.

You want to dance around that pesky little fact: It wasn't a bribe, it wasn't really ransom, it was a settlement. That's LEGALLY what it was: Money we owed them.  Are you suggesting all countries who owe US money, right now, and don't like our current administration should be able to default on it?  And, I mean, we sure have no issue (and this isn't focused on either party..they both do it) borrowing money from China!! 

And, you know, changing in government focus/"ocracy" doesn't really change whether you owe that country money.  That's not subjective, it's international law.  Again....The Hague accepted the suit from Iran and found it to have merit. 

Also note: 1979 was precisely when this money was put into trust.  You're quibbling over months, maybe.
 

I did read the article and your statement is total spin on the statement "The administration had previously declined to say if the interest was delivered to Iran in physical cash, as with the principal, or via a more regular banking mechanism." Next paragraph - "The officials said the $1.3 billion was paid in cash on Jan. 22 and Feb. 5."

It's not spin.  Paid in cash, in this context, can be a transfer of funds using another method (like wire transfer). That's why they differentiate between physical cash and "cash". The point is: No palette of 1.7 billion, because that would take PHYSICAL cash.  There was a physical palette of 400 million.

That's the point: I'm not the one "spinning". You did, with your initial statement.  At least according to that article YOU posted.
 

You guys have fun in the echo chamber, I'm heading to work.

Ah yes...the old "when confronted with facts I find pesky, I'll accuse those of the thing I'm doing" trick.  That's one of Trumps FAVORITES!  Right up there with "snowflakes"!

FYI: When everyone is acknowledging FACTS, it's not called an echo chamber.  It's called reality.  Just so you know. Maybe you can pass that along to Mr. President, too?

Great! Looks like I can get back to database theorem and alternatives to relational constructs!

[AxlsMainMan]

We don't but UN got everything he wanted from Trump. He played him like a fiddle. All we have basically is a pinky swear i'll destroy my nukes. I hope this turns into something substantial but i won't be placing any bets. All that happened is Trump gave Un what he wanted. Then gets Trump to go on tv and say how nice and wonderful he is and how much he trusts me. Admits they barely mentions NK human rights violations. Then today goes oh and if this all falls apart i won't admit i was wrong and i'll just make up some bullshit that you and his minions will lap up. I mean what does this guy have to do for you to stop kissing his butt? He's a conman a shyster.

Well, in Blutarsky's warped little mind, he also probably thinks it's perfectly acceptable, if not admirable, to shower Kim, Putin, or Duterte in compliments and praise while attacking allies like Trudeau

[pilferk]

Well, in Blutarsky's warped little mind, he also probably thinks it's perfectly acceptable, if not admirable, to shower Kim, Putin, or Duterte in compliments and praise while attacking allies like Trudeau

But...wait....don't we have a TRADE DEFICIT with CANADA??

Oh, wait...no...we don't?  We have surplus? AND our tariffs (long before Trump levied more) are actually HIGHER on their goods than theirs are on ours?

But, but...TRUMP SAID!!!

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Enjoy your homogeneous opinions, me and my little mind will let you all have your fun.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

It was more fun around here before it devolved to trading personal shots at one another.

Taking a break from this debate if you still call it that at this point. 

[pilferk]

Enjoy your homogeneous opinions, me and my little mind will let you all have your fun.

It doesn't seem like it's US that only wants homogeneous opinions.