Donald Trump & 2016 Election

[Dr. Blutarsky]

NOBLE Prize? 

No way Trump should have gotten it without any results, he doesn't deserve it.  Getting closer than past administrations to a US-NK summit at this level is a significant accomplishment , but isn't a "win".  And we already had one President that received the Nobel Peace Prize for not accomplishing anything to warrant it. 

He was no closer, really, than other administrations (Bush I, Clinton, AND Obama) have been in the past.  Remember "The Framework" which John Bolton ALSO undermined?

It's not an accomplishment to plan a meeting that never happens.  If it were, I'd be the single most accomplished person on the face of this planet.

And, seriously, Trump had folks chanting NOBEL at his rallies.  There were congressional repubs practically demanding it be awarded to him. All a little premature, no? 

The Singapore meeting may be off, but the door isn't shut yet on the prospect of a future meeting.  We should all hope a deal, a good deal can be reached at some point. 

Oh, I do.  Just as I have since the Bush I days.

And yet.....
 

Trump was the first President to have a date set & place for a meeting with NK. So he did get further than past administrations in that regard. But regarding results ( to date) I'll concede he has not achieved more.  We got 3 hostages back and a decommissioning of a nuke test site which t NK would have likely done anyway due to the collapse of the mountain.

By no means is the prospect of a face to face between Trump and Kim a dead deal. Could be all part of the give and take in the negotiations.

North Korea Still Open To Talks After Trump Cancels Summit

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/north-korea-reax-canceled-summit_us_5b07a93de4b0568a8809ccf2

[tim_m]

How's that noble prize looking now. 

NOBLE Prize? 

No way Trump should have gotten it without any results, he doesn't deserve it.  Getting closer than past administrations to a US-NK summit at this level is a significant accomplishment , but isn't a "win".  And we already had one President that received the Nobel Peace Prize for not accomplishing anything to warrant it. 

The Singapore meeting may be off, but the door isn't shut yet on the prospect of a future meeting.  We should all hope a deal, a good deal can be reached at some point. 


 

LOL sorry for the typo.

[pilferk]

Trump was the first President to have a date set & place for a meeting with NK.

Which means absolutely nothing.

I could schedule a meeting with Trump, tomorrow.

Having it on my calendar doesn't mean it's going to happen.

So he did get further than past administrations in that regard. But regarding results ( to date) I'll concede he has not achieved more.

HE didn't get further.  SK did.  And that's the participation trophy, at best.  Pretty low bar.

Clinton and Carter both met with NK, albeit after they were no longer president.  Other administrations have had signed agreements (back to 1985).  NK just broke them, every time.

A summit isn't a thing if it's only a date on someones calendar and it never actually happens because nobody shows up.

  We got 3 hostages back and a decommissioning of a nuke test site which t NK would have likely done anyway due to the collapse of the mountain.

Obama got back every hostage...10 of them, I believe?.. that NK had in their custody during his tenure, except two (Warmbier, who was arrested in the last year of Obama's presidency and quickly lapsed into a coma, and the one who was just part of the Trump return and was arrested in 2015, though not reported to the State Department til late 2016).   So, again, if you meant that to be part of the "better than previous admins", then no...that's not true.  NK has a long history of returning hostages to the US, too, after about a year from sentencing.

Trump does deserve some credit for those 3 returns, and I've said as much in previous posts.

The test site was, by all accounts, unusable at this point.  So it's destruction was pure propaganda.  He didn't "secure" anything...they just let us watch them do something they had no choice but to do.  Wanna take bets on whether they've secured and prepped another site for testing (Once the can afford to test again), already?

By no means is the prospect of a face to face between Trump and Kim a dead deal. Could be all part of the give and take in the negotiations.

North Korea Still Open To Talks After Trump Cancels Summit

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/north-korea-reax-canceled-summit_us_5b07a93de4b0568a8809ccf2

Prospects for the reversal of gravity and the total destruction of the universe still remain possible.

Unit that happens, though, it's not actually a "thing".

When the meeting happens...really happens...it's an accomplishment.

Til it does, it's just smoke on the wind.

Because both sides (NK in the past, and now the US, in the present) have done things that would lead to serious doubt that meeting will ever actually happen.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Pilferk, you really think you could schedule a meeting with Trump tomorrow? 

Has any other US ADMINISTRATION set a date with a sitting  President meeting the NK leader?  I wasn't talking about other countries such as South Korea  or retired Presidents. Carter did what he did as a private citizen.  (and I'm not taking away anything from Carter in what he got accomplished)

Regarding the hostages, getting 3 of them back is an accomplishment.

If you want to get into what other administration got more hostages back than Trump to date, then OK you win.       
 

[ice cream sand pig]

you are still strong for trump I see Mr Blurt.

I am in this situation where I cannot understand how someone could still like trump, but I don't want to just decide that people who hold a different opinion about it are "stupid" because I know that's just not true. so I don't understand. it perplexes me to no end when I sit down next to a stranger and they start talking about trump like it's common sense that he's the best thing since fried rice.

but to me, it seems common sense that the guy is a crook. and he's using this north Korea thing to detract attention from that. he also apparently does not like the part of the government that helps people in need.

you know the wait to see a disability judge is now 18 -24 months? that's the highest it's ever been in history. not sure if that has to do with him or not, but I'm inclined to think so.

the thing I had turned out to be a ballot saying I had to choose a party btw. I had to go with dems. I can't afford no enzyme replacement therapy. and I heard from a fellow Fabry's patient that we may actually get cut off someday  if the budget ever gets too small. I know they were already sending those letters out telling old and handicapped people receiving in home care that their services may get caught off in Alabama or wherever it was.

sorry for the long post, I don't mean to interrupt your guys' conversation.
 

[pilferk]

Pilferk, you really think you could schedule a meeting with Trump tomorrow? 

I just did.

It's now on my outlook calendar for June 7th, my birthday.

It will never actually happen, but....there you go. I have now, by your metric, accomplished something and am one of the most successful people in this forum!  Because none of you have ever done this before!!

Has any other US ADMINISTRATION set a date with a sitting  President meeting the NK leader?  I wasn't talking about other countries such as South Korea  or retired Presidents. Carter did what he did as a private citizen.  (and I'm not taking away anything from Carter in what he got accomplished)

We don't know.

We know no one has ANNOUNCED that meeting, and that no meeting has ever taken place.

Which doesn't matter if the meeting never happens. Which is entirely the point.

You can be as obtuse about this as you wish, but the fact remains: Simply scheduling a meeting means NOTHING.  It accomplishes NOTHING.  In fact, if nothing comes of it, it's actually a FAILURE.  Because you've lent legitimacy to the NK regime and shown that Kim has the ability to get direct access to the President (which proves their nuclear program development "worked" and made them a world power).

If the meeting happens, it's an accomplishment.

If something actually COMES of the meeting, it's an accomplishment.

If NK doesn't, within Trump's presidency, BREAK that agreement, it's an accomplishment.

In increasing levels of importance.

Regarding the hostages, getting 3 of them back is an accomplishment.

And I said that.  Basically the only one of this administration in 18 months.

If you want to get into what other administration got more hostages back than Trump to date, then OK you win.       
 

Um, you were the one who was putting up "administration metrics".  It seemed like your discussions about the hostages was meant to be unique to this administration, and to set them apart.

It's not.

[pilferk]

you are still strong for trump I see Mr Blurt.

I am in this situation where I cannot understand how someone could still like trump, but I don't want to just decide that people who hold a different opinion about it are "stupid" because I know that's just not true. so I don't understand. it perplexes me to no end when I sit down next to a stranger and they start talking about trump like it's common sense that he's the best thing since fried rice.

Let me take a crack at it (I'm sure one of the conservative posters will come in and tell me I'm 100% wrong, but...   )

They're not stupid.

They're desperate.

And desperation can do funny things.

They are watching as a majority of this country becomes more liberal, socially....and to a lesser extent, fiscally (though, lets face it, the Repub CLAIMS of fiscal conservativism are counteracted by the fact that, in their last 2 administrations/controls of the legislature, they spend more money than drunken sailors...they just spend it on different stuff).  They are also seeing a transformative economy that is leaving behind the reliance on direct manufacturing, for a variety of reasons, and is refocusing on technology and innovation focused economics.  We are also seeing a drastic shift in energy policy and reliance, both to preserve our ecosystem AND to stabilize consumer costs.  All of those changes, happening in relatively short order, has left some people feeling marginalized and desperate.  Their way of life, to them, feels like it's being eliminated, and those changes aren't happening over a couple generations, like similar changes have happened, but in less than one.  They are scared, feeling desperate, and looking for answers that Dems didn't seem comfortable providing (and, to a large extent, still don't).

Trump told them (and continues to tells them) what they want to hear.  With all the bull shit, with all the "alternate facts", with all that thinly veiled "ism-ing"....he still tells them the things that make them feel good, even if they are far fetched.  And, at the same time, he tells them that they bear no responsibility for any of what's happened, that's everything from the loss of coal jobs to male pattern baldness is the fault of the evil Dems (and those pesky immigrants!), AND there is some conspiracy afoot (both in the government and outside it) that is working against them.  So they'll take the rest of it, no matter HOW deplorable (and I use that term with intent) what he does/says is, since it gets them what the want: Validation and freedom from responsibility.  This is why this president can do and say things that no other president would have done/said and kept their position, or at least kept any modicum of support.  Because many Repubs view him as "the savior" of their way of life.

It's all bunk, of course, but it plays well when you're scared and watching your way of life disappear socially, economically, and culturally.  And it's a LOT easier than actually having difficult conversations about difficult issues and trying to craft solutions that will work in the real world.  Neither party has done that.

And, of course, then there's the contingent of people who are basically anarchists, and just want to "burn it down" and know that Trump is TERRIBLE, which is precisely why they vote for him.  They don't care what he actually does, they just want to troll the entire political spectrum, and they want him to do as much damage to the existing government infrastructure as he possibly can.

Keep in mind: There is also a fair amount of "rah rah" blood sport politics involved here, too.  Much of politics has come down to that: Do you play for Team R in red or Team D in blue. There's no reasoning or forethought or intellectualism in it (on both sides).  Everything the opposing team does is wrong (even if we do it, too) and nothing my team can do is wrong.  No matter what.  And people will rationalize literally ANYTHING (no matter how convoluted or obtuse they have to be in doing it) their team does to "win".  And, like in sports, they will claim everything, no matter how inconsequential, is an "accomplishment" and a "win".  That's the way rah rah ditto heads roll.

What's ironic in all this is: If Trump doesn't deliver (and, in the first 18 months, there' s nothing to indicate he will...all upward trends are pretty much flat from 2010 til now....meaning increases are increasing at the exact same pace they did under Obama), HE may actually do what the Dems have never been able to: Kill the Republican party.  He has already destroyed their moral high ground (though they've done a fair bit of helping that along).  They are no longer the "moral majority".  He's basically helping them destroy the party's fiscal conservative base.  So, at the end of the day: What do they stand for? 

The mid terms will be interesting.  I honestly don't know what will happen.  The economy continues to be strong, and I'm not sure how many voters actually look at underlying data and trends to see that...really...we're continuing Obama era increases.  Trump is a master of self promotion and takes credit for anything and everything, even if he's done nothing to effect it.  The "he didn't fuck it up badly enough for anyone to notice" may actually help Repubs.

I won't believe claims of a "big blue wave" until they happen, because the dems will almost assuredly do something to fuck themselves.  It's what they seem best at (and have been best at for my entire adult life).  Having said that, though, I think they will give us a good idea of just what our country is going to become over the next couple decades.

but to me, it seems common sense that the guy is a crook. and he's using this north Korea thing to detract attention from that. he also apparently does not like the part of the government that helps people in need.

Yes.  And, FYI, that's a not subjective opinion.  All you have to do is really look at the way the guy has done business since the 70's. He's a con man and a shyster who has this ability to form cults of personality and convince people he can do things, or that his name has value, when there is zero evidence that any of it is true.  And he's failed at least as often as he's succeeded, and when he HAS succeeded he's screwed his workers, contractors, and business partners. "Legally", sort of (if you consider having deeper pockets to keep litigation going longer to the point you bankrupt everyone else to be "legal").  But underhanded and crooked, certainly.

NK is more of an ego stroke, I think, and maybe a tiny bit of a distraction tactic.  SK, with an assist from China, did most of the heavy lifting...and they knew/know how to "play" Trumps ego.  It's not like he's all that complicated, which makes him pretty easy to move on issues.  But Trump NEEDS that Nobel prize, because Obama got one.

you know the wait to see a disability judge is now 18 -24 months? that's the highest it's ever been in history. not sure if that has to do with him or not, but I'm inclined to think so.

the thing I had turned out to be a ballot saying I had to choose a party btw. I had to go with dems. I can't afford no enzyme replacement therapy. and I heard from a fellow Fabry's patient that we may actually get cut off someday  if the budget ever gets too small. I know they were already sending those letters out telling old and handicapped people receiving in home care that their services may get caught off in Alabama or wherever it was.

You do NOT need to declare a party.

You MIGHT need to declare a party to vote in the primaries (you do in CT, which is nuts)....but you don't to vote in the general election in November.

I just don't vote in the primaries.  It's annoying, but it's better than affiliating myself with either of the two national monstrosities.

sorry for the long post, I don't mean to interrupt your guys' conversation.
 

[Smoking Guns]

Trump is simply doing his MAGA thing. Feels good, man.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Trump is simply doing his MAGA thing. Feels good, man.

So far so good on the economy   

Unemployment rate matches lowest point in half a century - http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/01/news/economy/may-jobs-report/index.html

New Milestones in Jobs Report Signal a Bustling Economy - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/01/business/economy/jobs-report.html

May jobs report: Unemployment down to 3.8%, payrolls up by 223,000 - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/may-jobs-report-unemployment-rate-us-down-3-8-percent-2018-06-01/

[Smoking Guns]

Trump is simply doing his MAGA thing. Feels good, man.

So far so good on the economy   

Unemployment rate matches lowest point in half a century - http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/01/news/economy/may-jobs-report/index.html

New Milestones in Jobs Report Signal a Bustling Economy - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/01/business/economy/jobs-report.html

May jobs report: Unemployment down to 3.8%, payrolls up by 223,000 - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/may-jobs-report-unemployment-rate-us-down-3-8-percent-2018-06-01/

So much damn winning. Kind of tiring actuallly

[pilferk]

Just a wee reminder:

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/trump--jobs-report-is-90--fiction-599323203679

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Just a wee reminder:

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/trump--jobs-report-is-90--fiction-599323203679

Dude, this from Jan 2016, how long did it take you to dig that up?

It is well established that Trump has said some dumb shit at times particulaly on the campaign trail, but there is no denying that the economy is doing very well right now

It wouldnt kill you to admit Trump isnt the anti christ 

[pilferk]

Dude, this from Jan 2016, how long did it take you to dig that up?

It is well established that Trump has said some dumb shit at times particulaly on the campaign trail, but there is no denying that the economy is doing very well right now

It wouldnt kill you to admit Trump isnt tha anti christ 

Oh, I've had it in my back pocket for awhile.  This just seemed a pretty appropriate time to remind everyone.

The point is: You can't have it both ways.  Your candidate can't call the numbers 90% fake, and then rave about them as a job accomplishment after taking office without being a hypocrite. Especially given the decreases haven't been any faster than they were under the old administration. The way the numbers are calculated haven't changed.  Neither has their basis data.

His supporters, who extolled the virtue of those comments 2 years ago, now coming back and crowing is laugh out loud funny.

"He says stupid shit" might be the biggest understatement, ever.

The economy is doing well.  No arguments there.  Same plane/trend of increases we've seen since around 2010.

Trump has had nothing to do with it. He has not enacted one policy, not furthered one legislative initiative, not done ANYTHING to further the economy.  So, yes...the Economy is doing well.  Thank you Obama.

And, by all means, cite the tax cuts so I can post all the articles I've posted in the past that show about 2% to 3% of that money is going toward labor, and about 70% is going into buy backs and dividends...which do zippo to stimulate our economy, unless you mean making rich people richer (who have also not "trickled down").

Residential and non-residential construction are at best flat (total spending), year over year, and have been trending down since February. April's numbers [reported in May] were shockingly bad...we'll have to see if they're revised next week.

Wages are still stagnant, despite the record low unemployment.

The number of americans who have REMOVED themselves from the job market also hit an all time high in May, and is a large reason the unemployment rate fell, again.

Simply pointing at the numbers, without understanding them, or without understanding their impetus and saying that they are an indication of Trumps success is just not borne out by facts or history.

Hows about you stop treating him like the ACTUAL Christ, eh? 

I gave him credit for the ONE thing he's managed to actually do...bring home the NK hostages.

I'll give him more credit when he does something that deserves it, rather than crowing about fake wins.

Oh, wait...look...the moon is out tonight!! TRUMP WIN!! 

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Residential and non-residential construction are at best flat?  Really? Maybe it is my lying eyes but from what I can see firsthand,  residential and commercial building is booming. 

Your caricature of me is inaccurate and not as witty as you may believe it to be.  At least I was able to get you to admit that the economy is doing well.

[tim_m]

Yesterday Trump claims Canada burned the Whitehouse down in the war of 1812 and today says no preparation is needed for the summit with Kim Jung Un. How screwed are we. 

[pilferk]

Residential and non-residential construction are at best flat?  Really? Maybe it is my lying eyes but from what I can see firsthand,  residential and commercial building is booming. 

Your caricature of me is inaccurate and not as witty as you may believe it to be.  At least I was able to get you to admit that the economy is doing well.

We've talked about your anecdotal observations before.  And the potential "Orlando Effect" (reportedly with an 80 mile radius in effect).   No need to rehash but yes...your lying eyes.  There is actual data on this. Observations of regional pits and valleys aren't actually meaningful (especially considering they're likely to see what they want to see).  To add: If you look at starts, not spending, things are even WORSE (aka you look at recently started projects and filed building permits for future construction).  We literally had this same conversation a month ago.

I've said the economy is doing well (still) at least 3 times in the past few pages of this thread.  Maybe it's not just your eyes that are lying to you?  My objection is in giving Trump credit for it.

My caricature is NOT inaccurate, actually.  It's based wholly on your posts.  And it's a whole lot closer to the truth than saying I think Trump is the anti-christ.  I don't give him that much credit.  He's who he's always been. For years and years.

As for witty...I suspect that's a case of being a little too close to the action to accurately judge.  A feeling many Trump supporters should (but don't seem to) recognize.

[tim_m]

Anyone see Trump's comments this morning to the press before leaving for G7? 

[pilferk]

Anyone see Trump's comments this morning to the press before leaving for G7? 

The bits about re-inviting russia to join the G7 (would be G8 again)?

Yeah, I mean...does that actually surprise anyone?

[tim_m]

Anyone see Trump's comments this morning to the press before leaving for G7? 

The bits about re-inviting russia to join the G7 (would be G8 again)?

Yeah, I mean...does that actually surprise anyone?

It shouldn't. He also plans to skip the climate change portion and skip out on it early. He also apparently wants to pardon Ali who had his case reversed by scotus decades ago.

[tim_m]

Welcome to the Trump/Un summit where they agree not to complete verifiable and irreversible denucleariization. What a fucking waste of time and money.