Donald Trump & 2016 Election

[Bridge]

Quoting lyrics from one of my non-favorite GNR bands regarding a Trump presidency: "Hope for the best but expect the worst". 

Sounds like "Forever Young" by Alphaville.

If it is, you forgot to quote the ensuing line which is just as pertinent as it relates to Trump:

Hoping for the best, but expecting the worst,
are you gonna drop the bomb or not....

[WAR41]

Quoting lyrics from one of my non-favorite GNR bands regarding a Trump presidency: "Hope for the best but expect the worst". 

Sounds like "Forever Young" by Alphaville.

If it is, you forgot to quote the ensuing line which is just as pertinent as it relates to Trump:

Hoping for the best, but expecting the worst,
are you gonna drop the bomb or not....

Haha that actually was not the band, but thanks for the heads up. My quote comes from a song called Justwatchastep by E-Town Concrete. 

[faldor]

Only in America can a person accused of sexual assault by more then a dozen women, become president.  I really have to wonder what the women who still supported him  

Funny, I was saying the same things when America TWICE voted Bill Clinton into presidency.  You know, all the sexual indiscretions Hillary enabled and helped cover up?

Difference is those women with the exception of Jones seemingly lied and Broaddick's claim seems sketchy. Don't you think you'd remember the day you were raped? Also with Clinton we don't have him on any tape bragging about sexually assaulting women, saying inappropriate things about a 10 year old girl as well as his own daughter. Maybe the stuff about Bill is true maybe it isn't. The claims against Trump are more believable simply because of the things we have proof of him saying. Just the way he talks about ivanka make my skin crawl.

I don't know. Are we pretending the whole Monica Lewinsky thing didn't happen? Not sure how that behavior is deemed acceptable.

Certainly it isn't acceptable for a man to cheat on his wife. It was consensual though. What Trump is being accused of and facing civil suit for is sexual assault and statutory rape.

Well so far, that's the only thing that's been proven as far as I know. Everything else is allegations. We'll see how it all plays out, but innocent until proven guilty used to be a mantra we lived by. Now it seems to be the polar opposite, actually it's been that way for decades now.

Yes innocent until proven guilty, so let's give him a pass on all the allegations until they're proven. If you take those all away and give him due process on those lets consider what we do have. We have him on tape boasting about sexually assaulting women. We have him on tape boasting that he'd be dating a girl who at the time was 10. Which tells us he found her sexually attractive. That screams pedophile. A man doesn't say something like that about someone who he finds unattractive. Then we have the incestuous comments about Ivanka. Even if we give him a pass until proven guilty on the accusations. He is still guilty of saying some seriously creepy shit that sends of tons of red flags.

No doubt he has SAID some pretty outlandish things, but that's not the same as doing them. I've heard him speak openly on the Howard Stern Show before. He likes to be entertaining and say shocking things, that's no surprise. I think the comments about underage girls and those about his daughter are overblown. There's no way he wants to have sex with a 10 year old girl or his own daughter, I refuse to believe that. Is he proud of his daughter? Does he think she's beautiful? Yes, and yes. It ends there though. Just my opinion, obviously you disagree along with many others, and that's fine.

And maybe he'll be the worst president ever, but let's wait until he serves at least one day in office before we declare that. I think he deserves that much. I'd say the same for Hillary, even though she was severely flawed. There's no going back and changing the votes at this point. We weren't given a very good crop to choose from, to put it nicely. But we have to respect and accept the results and hope for the best. It seems at this point, a lot of people want him to fail, and I can't see the logic in that.

[tim_m]

Only in America can a person accused of sexual assault by more then a dozen women, become president.  I really have to wonder what the women who still supported him  

Funny, I was saying the same things when America TWICE voted Bill Clinton into presidency.  You know, all the sexual indiscretions Hillary enabled and helped cover up?

Difference is those women with the exception of Jones seemingly lied and Broaddick's claim seems sketchy. Don't you think you'd remember the day you were raped? Also with Clinton we don't have him on any tape bragging about sexually assaulting women, saying inappropriate things about a 10 year old girl as well as his own daughter. Maybe the stuff about Bill is true maybe it isn't. The claims against Trump are more believable simply because of the things we have proof of him saying. Just the way he talks about ivanka make my skin crawl.

I don't know. Are we pretending the whole Monica Lewinsky thing didn't happen? Not sure how that behavior is deemed acceptable.

Certainly it isn't acceptable for a man to cheat on his wife. It was consensual though. What Trump is being accused of and facing civil suit for is sexual assault and statutory rape.

Well so far, that's the only thing that's been proven as far as I know. Everything else is allegations. We'll see how it all plays out, but innocent until proven guilty used to be a mantra we lived by. Now it seems to be the polar opposite, actually it's been that way for decades now.

Yes innocent until proven guilty, so let's give him a pass on all the allegations until they're proven. If you take those all away and give him due process on those lets consider what we do have. We have him on tape boasting about sexually assaulting women. We have him on tape boasting that he'd be dating a girl who at the time was 10. Which tells us he found her sexually attractive. That screams pedophile. A man doesn't say something like that about someone who he finds unattractive. Then we have the incestuous comments about Ivanka. Even if we give him a pass until proven guilty on the accusations. He is still guilty of saying some seriously creepy shit that sends of tons of red flags.

No doubt he has SAID some pretty outlandish things, but that's not the same as doing them. I've heard him speak openly on the Howard Stern Show before. He likes to be entertaining and say shocking things, that's no surprise. I think the comments about underage girls and those about his daughter are overblown. There's no way he wants to have sex with a 10 year old girl or his own daughter, I refuse to believe that. Is he proud of his daughter? Does he think she's beautiful? Yes, and yes. It ends there though. Just my opinion, obviously you disagree along with many others, and that's fine.

And maybe he'll be the worst president ever, but let's wait until he serves at least one day in office before we declare that. I think he deserves that much. I'd say the same for Hillary, even though she was severely flawed. There's no going back and changing the votes at this point. We weren't given a very good crop to choose from, to put it nicely. But we have to respect and accept the results and hope for the best. It seems at this point, a lot of people want him to fail, and I can't see the logic in that.

Maybe not want to date her but saying about a 10 year old i would be dating her in 10 years is kinda disturbing. About his daughter though he did say more then she's beautiful. He said things like she's a piece of ass. That if she wasn't his daughter he'd date her. Who even thinks of their own child in that way? To me that's gross and disturbing.

I am just like a lot of people terrified of what he will do, possibly undo the good things Obama did. I'm worried if he's allowed to continue to have access to twitter that he'll start a war by saying the wrong thing about some foreign president. Someone that can be goaded into a fight by a twitter post as potus is scary to a lot of people. Of course i hope and pray i am wrong and he knocks it out of the park. I'm not hoping he fails i am just afraid he will or he will start world war 3. Given the things he says on social media i think it's reasonable to have those concerns.

[pilferk]

And maybe he'll be the worst president ever, but let's wait until he serves at least one day in office before we declare that. I think he deserves that much. I'd say the same for Hillary, even though she was severely flawed. There's no going back and changing the votes at this point. We weren't given a very good crop to choose from, to put it nicely. But we have to respect and accept the results and hope for the best. It seems at this point, a lot of people want him to fail, and I can't see the logic in that.

This is what I find so amusing in all this (and I'm not pointing at you, faldor...but those that voted for Trump, in general who are saying this)..the cry that "you have to give him a chance".  Like they gave Obama a chance?  The Repubs played obstructionist on day one, and the R voters and constituency all supported that tact. R voters, and their entire media arm from Beck, to Hannity, to Limbaugh were up in arms the day after he was elected and stayed that way til Nov 9th, 2016. They were bashing him before he was sworn in.  Yet...the tune changes when it's "their guy"....and ZERO understanding is given to that fact and that more people, in this country, actually voted for the other person this time.  So, yeah..."give him a chance"? I think, for a LOT of HRC voters, that's an unrealistic expectation AND it's hypocrisy for most R voters to ask for (or expect) that.

That, along with the "Our opinion matters, you have to listen to us"...all while decrying the opposing viewpoints right to do the same, and protest this win.

We've lost the ability to civilly disagree and debate in this country.  THIS thread should be paraded into every civics class, from 3rd grade to Senior year in college, as a demonstration on how this process should work. Listen. Be respectful. Make your case.

Is anyone changing minds? Probably not. But we all understand where the other is coming from.  That makes it a LOT easier to work together and enact change, because it makes it easier to do the one thing our government has totally forgotten how to do: compromise.

I don't see that changing in the next 4 years (and I don't mean that as a direct reflection on Trump, but one on our society as a whole).......we are about to be return the the 1930's era policy...traditionalist isolationism...and thats going to perpetuate things.

[faldor]

And maybe he'll be the worst president ever, but let's wait until he serves at least one day in office before we declare that. I think he deserves that much. I'd say the same for Hillary, even though she was severely flawed. There's no going back and changing the votes at this point. We weren't given a very good crop to choose from, to put it nicely. But we have to respect and accept the results and hope for the best. It seems at this point, a lot of people want him to fail, and I can't see the logic in that.

This is what I find so amusing in all this (and I'm not pointing at you, faldor...but those that voted for Trump, in general who are saying this)..the cry that "you have to give him a chance".  Like they gave Obama a chance?  The Repubs played obstructionist on day one, and the R voters and constituency all supported that tact. R voters, and their entire media arm from Beck, to Hannity, to Limbaugh were up in arms the day after he was elected and stayed that way til Nov 9th, 2016. They were bashing him before he was sworn in.  Yet...the tune changes when it's "their guy"....and ZERO understanding is given to that fact and that more people, in this country, actually voted for the other person this time.  So, yeah..."give him a chance"? I think, for a LOT of HRC voters, that's an unrealistic expectation AND it's hypocrisy for most R voters to ask for (or expect) that.

That, along with the "Our opinion matters, you have to listen to us"...all while decrying the opposing viewpoints right to do the same, and protest this win.

We've lost the ability to civilly disagree and debate in this country.  THIS thread should be paraded into every civics class, from 3rd grade to Senior year in college, as a demonstration on how this process should work. Listen. Be respectful. Make your case.

Is anyone changing minds? Probably not. But we all understand where the other is coming from.  That makes it a LOT easier to work together and enact change, because it makes it easier to do the one thing our government has totally forgotten how to do: compromise.

I don't see that changing in the next 4 years (and I don't mean that as a direct reflection on Trump, but one on our society as a whole).......we are about to be return the the 1930's era policy...traditionalist isolationism...and thats going to perpetuate things.

I don't remember protests being staged when Obama won, or any other time for that matter. I don't remember American flags being burned, or violence being threatened and even encouraged. It's a ugly end to an ugly campaign, so I guess it's to be expected. Maybe Trump supporters would have acted similarly if he lost, I guess we'll never know. But we live in a world today where if something doesn't go your way, you get out there to bitch and complain about it. Peaceful protests? That's debatable. 44% of registered voters didn't vote. Maybe next time do a better job at getting out there and voting for your candidate. The problem is, this result was so unexpected it caught most everyone off guard. It was believed to be in the bag. The only question was how much she would win by. Hillary supporters were busy celebrating with Bon Jovi, The Boss, and Katy Perry. Their cockiness changed to shock and awe in less than 24 hours.

I actually don't think the media has been that bad since the results. Some of the guests they have on to interview are giving their opposing viewpoints, but that's fine. It's a segment of the American people that have not reacted well and are completely unwilling to give this a chance. I just think this ugly campaign illustrates the landscape of the country right now. We live in a world where everyone gets a trophy or a pat on the back, yet when something doesn't go your way the switch is flipped and the venom comes out. You have angry protests, not just in this instance, that shut down major areas and cause severe traffic problems. Is that really the answer?

All of this over a candidate who was beyond flawed and as corrupt as they come. We knew we had a terrible choice to make. It was like picking the lesser of two evils. Is that really worth fighting and protesting over? Again, maybe this would still be happening if the results were the other way. So I'm not singling out Hillary supporters. This just seems to be a common theme in the country today, and to me it's not a good one.

[faldor]

Only in America can a person accused of sexual assault by more then a dozen women, become president.  I really have to wonder what the women who still supported him  

Funny, I was saying the same things when America TWICE voted Bill Clinton into presidency.  You know, all the sexual indiscretions Hillary enabled and helped cover up?

Difference is those women with the exception of Jones seemingly lied and Broaddick's claim seems sketchy. Don't you think you'd remember the day you were raped? Also with Clinton we don't have him on any tape bragging about sexually assaulting women, saying inappropriate things about a 10 year old girl as well as his own daughter. Maybe the stuff about Bill is true maybe it isn't. The claims against Trump are more believable simply because of the things we have proof of him saying. Just the way he talks about ivanka make my skin crawl.

I don't know. Are we pretending the whole Monica Lewinsky thing didn't happen? Not sure how that behavior is deemed acceptable.

Certainly it isn't acceptable for a man to cheat on his wife. It was consensual though. What Trump is being accused of and facing civil suit for is sexual assault and statutory rape.

Well so far, that's the only thing that's been proven as far as I know. Everything else is allegations. We'll see how it all plays out, but innocent until proven guilty used to be a mantra we lived by. Now it seems to be the polar opposite, actually it's been that way for decades now.

Yes innocent until proven guilty, so let's give him a pass on all the allegations until they're proven. If you take those all away and give him due process on those lets consider what we do have. We have him on tape boasting about sexually assaulting women. We have him on tape boasting that he'd be dating a girl who at the time was 10. Which tells us he found her sexually attractive. That screams pedophile. A man doesn't say something like that about someone who he finds unattractive. Then we have the incestuous comments about Ivanka. Even if we give him a pass until proven guilty on the accusations. He is still guilty of saying some seriously creepy shit that sends of tons of red flags.

No doubt he has SAID some pretty outlandish things, but that's not the same as doing them. I've heard him speak openly on the Howard Stern Show before. He likes to be entertaining and say shocking things, that's no surprise. I think the comments about underage girls and those about his daughter are overblown. There's no way he wants to have sex with a 10 year old girl or his own daughter, I refuse to believe that. Is he proud of his daughter? Does he think she's beautiful? Yes, and yes. It ends there though. Just my opinion, obviously you disagree along with many others, and that's fine.

And maybe he'll be the worst president ever, but let's wait until he serves at least one day in office before we declare that. I think he deserves that much. I'd say the same for Hillary, even though she was severely flawed. There's no going back and changing the votes at this point. We weren't given a very good crop to choose from, to put it nicely. But we have to respect and accept the results and hope for the best. It seems at this point, a lot of people want him to fail, and I can't see the logic in that.

Maybe not want to date her but saying about a 10 year old i would be dating her in 10 years is kinda disturbing. About his daughter though he did say more then she's beautiful. He said things like she's a piece of ass. That if she wasn't his daughter he'd date her. Who even thinks of their own child in that way? To me that's gross and disturbing.

I am just like a lot of people terrified of what he will do, possibly undo the good things Obama did. I'm worried if he's allowed to continue to have access to twitter that he'll start a war by saying the wrong thing about some foreign president. Someone that can be goaded into a fight by a twitter post as potus is scary to a lot of people. Of course i hope and pray i am wrong and he knocks it out of the park. I'm not hoping he fails i am just afraid he will or he will start world war 3. Given the things he says on social media i think it's reasonable to have those concerns.

Well, I may get flamed for saying this but I honestly am not outraged by those comments. Maybe it's the years of listening to the Stern show, but I've heard those kinds of comments for years. Howard used to talk about how he thought Alyssa Milano would grow up to be hot when she was on "Who's the Boss". He was right by the way. He wasn't so sure about Dakota Fanning, but that's a different story. It's innocent talk, and freedom of speech, not meant to be taken so seriously. He certainly wasn't saying he wanted to have sex with an underage Alyssa Milano. In this very thread a few days ago, Chelsea Clinton was being discussed and how she went from an awkward looking 12 year old to the attractive woman she is today. I didn't have a problem with that. But was it fair to judge a 12 year old on her looks? Probably not, but many of us did. It happens, and it's nothing new.

And again, the comments about Ivanka. I've heard those as well on Stern. He was pimping her out to Tom Brady at one point. He's very proud of his daughter, and rightfully so. She's grown up to be a very successful business woman with a good head on her shoulders. It's not a crime to say your daughter is attractive. Piece of ass might be pushing it, but let's just remember who said it. Donald Trump says crazy things. He loves to be in the spotlight and get attention. What gets more attention, "my daughter is beautiful" or "my daughter is a piece of ass"? Same thing with saying he'd date her if she wasn't his daughter. Donald loves Donald Trump probably more than anything. So he's bragging by saying that. He's basically saying "I have the best daughter ever, even I would date her", since his standards are so high. Again, all of this was said for shock value and entertainment purposes, at least in my mind.

I can see how some would be upset by them, but in the context of the setting at which they were said, I honestly didn't have a problem with them.

[sandman]

I say she had no CLEAR message, and you point to 800 pages of policy on her website??? it's that thinking that shows she is out of touch. everyone knows politicians will not deliver on all of their promises, but Trump provided a specific plan on how to address the illegal immigration issue (a problem for the US for decades), and specific ideas regarding trade deals, preventing companies from leaving the U.S., etc.  maybe "empty" wasn't the right word since we'd have to wait to judge, but the examples I provided for Hillary are generic promises that all politicians repeat in their sleep.

Read what I wrote.

I said "He might have had better slogans, but when it comes to empty promises, Trump trumps HRC every day of the week, and twice on Sunday". And pointed to actual policy proposals to bear that out.

Other than a wall, and deportation forces (both of which would a)bankrupt the country and b)be logistically impossible) what specific proposals did he give?  Renegotiate trade deals? Impossible, unless the other parties involved agree...and not under the power of the president anyway. And if he just orders us to stop complying, he'll be in a trade war that we will lose (witness our trade deficit...and remember we don't manufacture much anymore). Nothing stopped congress from doing that up til now, either. Obama certainly didn't object. Prevent companies from leaving? How?

THOSE ARE EMPTY PROMISES. They are words with no actual workable plans behind them.  That's the very definition of empty promises.  "There are going to be great plans, believe me". "We're going to bring back manufacturing, big league".  

her commercials did not work in PA, that's for sure. a dem stronghold for years that Obama won easily, so it was a MAJOR upset for her to lose PA. do they show the commercials as much in CA and NY, where her victory was guaranteed? not sure, but from what I've heard from co-workers in NY (and MD), commercials were on far less frequently. I pretty much have the negative trump ads memorized word for word, and I don't watch much TV. I hear "i don't remem-BER" in my sleep.

It was an upset.

BUT, PA was a swing state for awhile...It voted R in the 80's, and D (mostly by close margins...3 or 4 pts) in the 90's and 00's.  MICHIGAN is the far bigger surprise in the flip, to me.

They didn't work at getting voters out in her strongholds.  The urban voters, her strongholds, stayed home.  The rural voters stayed home LESS for Trump.  He flipped exactly 2 counties....To me, that shows her unlikeableness, and general opinion of her scandals and corruption, more than message.  The fact the Trump commercials STUCK with you is, actually, proof they "worked".

No matter what her message was, those rural voters weren't voting for her.  They vote for the guy with the R after his name EVERY TIME.  Message didn't matter there. They did it in 2012 and 2008, too....when you can't really argue with Obama's message.

the Republicans have a great opportunity now with full control. but they are so divided i'm sure they will squander it. I hope trump continues his assault on them and changes how things are done in Washington.

They're not that divided.  And they will get their agenda through for 2 years and then we'll see where we are.  

a few years ago, Obama said to the Republicans "You don't like a particular policy or a particular president? Then argue for your position. Go out there and win an election."

somehow the Republicans won a bunch, despite their party being a mess.  

I agree, 100%. Elections have consequences. I do think it's amusing that Repubs are saying it now, after spending 8 years being obstructionists and not accepting Obama's election/reelection, but....I said the same thing then, and I'll say it again now.

But the Repubs did spend the better part of 8 years being obstructionists.  They don't have a super majority in the Senate....at best it'll be 52-48, depending on the runoff in Louisiana.  They have 2 years to prove the the voters that their way works and will have to fight their way through the Senate to get stuff done.  The house will definitely push through their agenda easily, though. If they're not carefuly, they'll usher in a blue wave in 2018, and then Trump will basically be marginalized.  

I hope the Repubs succeed, actually, over the next 4 years and we grow and prosper, and diversity doesn't get squashed under the boot heel in it's wake.  But if you ask me what I think the actual likelihood is that Trump will change the way Washington works, and will "drain the swamp", and make meaningful, effective, change that benefits the middle class......I'd say not good.  But we'll see....

you are giving your opinion of his promises. other things he said? repeal Obamacare. that's as clear as it gets. 

he had MESSAGES that everyone can recite. I don't care if they are not likely or possible to occur. not my point at all. not to mention, that doesn't really matter in politics. having a message that resonates is politics 101. Hillary had no message. no one is reading 800 pages of policies.  she needed to communicate key points of what she would be focused on. she didn't do that.

part of the problem was that she was very unavailable, didn't talk to the press, and disappeared out of the public eye for weeks at a time. then the majority of her commercials were negative, with no communication on her policies.

[pilferk]

I don't remember protests being staged when Obama won, or any other time for that matter. I don't remember American flags being burned, or violence being threatened and even encouraged. It's a ugly end to an ugly campaign, so I guess it's to be expected. Maybe Trump supporters would have acted similarly if he lost, I guess we'll never know. But we live in a world today where if something doesn't go your way, you get out there to bitch and complain about it. Peaceful protests? That's debatable. 44% of registered voters didn't vote. Maybe next time do a better job at getting out there and voting for your candidate. The problem is, this result was so unexpected it caught most everyone off guard. It was believed to be in the bag. The only question was how much she would win by. Hillary supporters were busy celebrating with Bon Jovi, The Boss, and Katy Perry. Their cockiness changed to shock and awe in less than 24 hours.

Define "protests".

You certainly had a riled up, polarized, electorate who were latching on to things like birtherism to try to deligitimize his presidency, or prevent him from taking office. 

And...whatever form they take...these are people expressing their opinion, peacefully (for the most part...I don't condone rioting and violence).  Whether you agree with them or not....just like you have the right to express your opinion, they have the right to express theirs.

And that's whats being "taken away" by many of the Trump supporters who are grousing about the protests and calls of discontent.  They get theirs...but nobody else gets theirs.  When it's them, it principaled objection.  When it's the other side, it's entitled whining.  The hypocrisy knows no bounds.

I actually don't think the media has been that bad since the results. Some of the guests they have on to interview are giving their opposing viewpoints, but that's fine. It's a segment of the American people that have not reacted well and are completely unwilling to give this a chance. I just think this ugly campaign illustrates the landscape of the country right now. We live in a world where everyone gets a trophy or a pat on the back, yet when something doesn't go your way the switch is flipped and the venom comes out. You have angry protests, not just in this instance, that shut down major areas and cause severe traffic problems. Is that really the answer?

Thats why the first amendment exists, actually.  So...yeah..its their answer.  And whether you agree or not, it's their right to do it.

I'd say this type of protest sort of shows off that people are not going to take some of his more extreme positions laying down.  It's a forewarning.

Sitting back and going along for the ride, as you're led to proverbial slaughter (keep in mind, their opinion, not mine) likely isn't the right answer for them, either.

Just as it wasn't for the Repubs when Obama was elected.

All of this over a candidate who was beyond flawed and as corrupt as they come. We knew we had a terrible choice to make. It was like picking the lesser of two evils. Is that really worth fighting and protesting over? Again, maybe this would still be happening if the results were the other way. So I'm not singling out Hillary supporters. This just seems to be a common theme in the country today, and to me it's not a good one.

It's not about the candidate who lost, IMHO. It's about the candidate who won.  You could throw Mickey Mouse up there as the alternative...and they'd be angry Trump won.  Their issue is...Trump, to them, is the GREATER of two evils. By a large margin. Not just ideologically opposite, but dangerous to their way of life and existence.  Thats the way they see it.  You have a large chunk of people who have heard him espouse extreme positions on Muslims, latinos, LGBTQ folks, and others who are wondering exactly what their place in a post Trump presidency is...and he hasn't exactly been forthcoming on details since the election.  You may see that as drama filled whining, but I can assure you...they don't.  And they are citizens. So I respect their right to make that dissatisfaction known. It is LITERALLY what the constitution was crafted to ensure the people could do.

I'm actually encouraged to see some political activism, no matter what form it takes.   Maybe people will start waking up and actually DOING something, instead of passively sitting back and watching consistently.  Or, maybe in 30 days, it all goes away and everyone is back to staring at their screens. We'll see.

[pilferk]

you are giving your opinion of his promises. other things he said? repeal Obamacare. that's as clear as it gets. 

I'm laying out what his promises WERE vs what he relayed in terms of how they would be executed.  His plans for building the wall and deportation forces....those aren't my opinions.  They're the opinions of the CBO, reputable economists, and reputable law enforcement/ICE agents.  Too expensive, logistically impossible.  Not the way he very cursorily outlined.  The rest...no opinions, because...no plans.

Repeal and replace.

Replace with what? "We're gonna have plans that are so good...believe me". 

That's as clear as....what?

And what's the time frame for that replacement? Or for the "repeal" (quotes used because it won't be a traditional repeal..it will be a budgetary measure) to go into efffect? Or how he will counteract the effect on the deficit? Or Medicare? What about preexisting conditions (he finally said within the last couple days...that will go bye bye)? Or keeping the kids on til 25? Or....the effect on existing plan premiums? Or the tax bit on "platinum plans"? Or....I mean...literally not one comment during the campaign of the specificity of one bit of that.

"I'm going to do this" isn't a plan.  It's a statement. It is, when you provide no substance, and empty promise.

And, FYI, THAT is why so many folks from the opposing point of view are so nervous.  Because they literally have no idea what he's going to actually DO.

he had MESSAGES that everyone can recite. I don't care if they are not likely or possible to occur. not my point at all. not to mention, that doesn't really matter in politics. having a message that resonates is politics 101. Hillary had no message. no one is reading 800 pages of policies.  she needed to communicate key points of what she would be focused on. she didn't do that.

He had SLOGANS that everyone can recite.  There is a difference, and it's not semantic.

Slogans are things like "Make america great again".

Messages are things like "We're going to make college affordable for everyone" and here's how (see policy on web site).

You said "empty promises" in your initial post....so....if you didn't mean empty promises, I'm not sure what you did mean.  That's the point I took issue with. If anyone was making empty promises...it was Trump.  Because he had no outlined policy to support them.

As for not reading 800 pages of policy..that's precisely my point.  People weren't voting for issues, or plans, or anything really concrete. This was not an electorate looking to be informed.  They were voting for change, no matter what form that took, no matter who was offering it. At the end of the day, they voted for empty promises, pipe dreams, and flash.  That might not have been WHY they voted for him, but it's what they voted FOR.

Which is fine..but lets not delude ourselves into thinking Trump laid out a concrete path to get from where we are to where he wants us to be.  He just said "Believe me"...and people did.

Now, he might actually be able to do some of this stuff...we don't know.  If he does...especially some of the infrastructure stuff...bully for him and us.

part of the problem was that she was very unavailable, didn't talk to the press, and disappeared out of the public eye for weeks at a time. then the majority of her commercials were negative, with no communication on her policies.

That's hyperbole.

She was never unavailable for "weeks at a time". Days, occasionally, as she recovered from pneumonia (that hurt her) and did debate prep (which you have to say payed off, mostly).  She didn't hold a presser for about am 8 week span, but she was available on the stump, in public, etc and did one on one interviews. By late August, she was having regular pressers again, and gaggle groups on the plane (and Trump shut up right before the first debate...and didn't really talk to anyone else from the press but Fox News for the rest of the campaign).

The majority of her commercials were negative (but so were his). She did communicate on her policies (again..800 pages on her web site...for anyone to read...and constant mentions in her stump speeches and debates) but she did it in the dryest, most boring way possible.  She was generally unlikeable, had a shit ton of Clinton-esque scandals following her around, and..in many cases..couldn't get out of her own way (that deplorables comment early on just KILLED her). She was certianly flawed, no doubt.  Her messages were clear...they just sucked in terms of delivery.

Again, we agree...she ran a terrible campaign.  And she had a couple external factors hounding her (Wikileaks and Comey's letter) that Trump didn't have to deal with, either.  Not that she didn't bring them on herself (Podesta must be the stupidest campaign manager in america to fall for a fishing scheme to get his email pw..and not have 2 factor authentication on his fucking google account)..she absolutely did. But all that hurt her too.

I maintain this was a Captain of the Football Team campaining on promises of no homework, junk food for lunch, and expulsion of all geeks vs the Nerdy Chess Club president who was unlikable to the extreme and a little shady, but promised things like a cleaner school, better resource access, and a better computer lab.  The Captain of the Football team won.  Now lets see how he does.

[sandman]

you are giving your opinion of his promises. other things he said? repeal Obamacare. that's as clear as it gets. 

I'm laying out what his promises WERE vs what he relayed in terms of how they would be executed.  His plans for building the wall and deportation forces....those aren't my opinions.  They're the opinions of the CBO, reputable economists, and reputable law enforcement/ICE agents.  Too expensive, logistically impossible.  Not the way he very cursorily outlined.  The rest...no opinions, because...no plans.

Repeal and replace.

Replace with what? "We're gonna have plans that are so good...believe me". 

That's as clear as....what?

And what's the time frame for that replacement? Or for the "repeal" (quotes used because it won't be a traditional repeal..it will be a budgetary measure) to go into efffect? Or how he will counteract the effect on the deficit? Or Medicare? What about preexisting conditions (he finally said within the last couple days...that will go bye bye)? Or keeping the kids on til 25? Or....the effect on existing plan premiums? Or the tax bit on "platinum plans"? Or....I mean...literally not one comment during the campaign of the specificity of one bit of that.

"I'm going to do this" isn't a plan.  It's a statement. It is, when you provide no substance, and empty promise.

And, FYI, THAT is why so many folks from the opposing point of view are so nervous.  Because they literally have no idea what he's going to actually DO.

he had MESSAGES that everyone can recite. I don't care if they are not likely or possible to occur. not my point at all. not to mention, that doesn't really matter in politics. having a message that resonates is politics 101. Hillary had no message. no one is reading 800 pages of policies.  she needed to communicate key points of what she would be focused on. she didn't do that.

He had SLOGANS that everyone can recite.  There is a difference, and it's not semantic.

Slogans are things like "Make america great again".

Messages are things like "We're going to make college affordable for everyone" and here's how (see policy on web site).

You said "empty promises" in your initial post....so....if you didn't mean empty promises, I'm not sure what you did mean.  That's the point I took issue with. If anyone was making empty promises...it was Trump.  Because he had no outlined policy to support them.

As for not reading 800 pages of policy..that's precisely my point.  People weren't voting for issues, or plans, or anything really concrete. This was not an electorate looking to be informed.  They were voting for change, no matter what form that took, no matter who was offering it. At the end of the day, they voted for empty promises, pipe dreams, and flash.  That might not have been WHY they voted for him, but it's what they voted FOR.

Which is fine..but lets not delude ourselves into thinking Trump laid out a concrete path to get from where we are to where he wants us to be.  He just said "Believe me"...and people did.

Now, he might actually be able to do some of this stuff...we don't know.  If he does...especially some of the infrastructure stuff...bully for him and us.

part of the problem was that she was very unavailable, didn't talk to the press, and disappeared out of the public eye for weeks at a time. then the majority of her commercials were negative, with no communication on her policies.

That's hyperbole.

She was never unavailable for "weeks at a time". Days, occasionally, as she recovered from pneumonia (that hurt her) and did debate prep (which you have to say payed off, mostly).  She didn't hold a presser for about am 8 week span, but she was available on the stump, in public, etc and did one on one interviews. By late August, she was having regular pressers again, and gaggle groups on the plane (and Trump shut up right before the first debate...and didn't really talk to anyone else from the press but Fox News for the rest of the campaign).

The majority of her commercials were negative (but so were his). She did communicate on her policies (again..800 pages on her web site...for anyone to read...and constant mentions in her stump speeches and debates) but she did it in the dryest, most boring way possible.  She was generally unlikeable, had a shit ton of Clinton-esque scandals following her around, and..in many cases..couldn't get out of her own way (that deplorables comment early on just KILLED her). She was certianly flawed, no doubt.  Her messages were clear...they just sucked in terms of delivery.

Again, we agree...she ran a terrible campaign.  And she had a couple external factors hounding her (Wikileaks and Comey's letter) that Trump didn't have to deal with, either.  Not that she didn't bring them on herself (Podesta must be the stupidest campaign manager in america to fall for a fishing scheme to get his email pw..and not have 2 factor authentication on his fucking google account)..she absolutely did. But all that hurt her too.

I maintain this was a Captain of the Football Team campaining on promises of no homework, junk food for lunch, and expulsion of all geeks vs the Nerdy Chess Club president who was unlikable to the extreme and a little shady, but promised things like a cleaner school, better resource access, and a better computer lab.  The Captain of the Football team won.  Now lets see how he does.

all week I've been telling friends that Trump is Paul Metzler and Hillary is Tracy Flick.  when that movie first came out, Tracy was basically a young Hillary. I was looking for a clip of when Tracy was balling her eyes out the other day, but all I found were pictures.

[pilferk]

all week I've been telling friends that Trump is Paul Metzler and Hillary is Tracy Flick.  when that movie first came out, Tracy was basically a young Hillary. I was looking for a clip of when Tracy was balling her eyes out the other day, but all I found were pictures.

It's totally an apt analogy.

He promised big, flashy, sexy changes without much substance in terms of how he plans to do it (and, if I'm being honest...some of those changes are a little repugnant to me..but it is what it is).

She promised incremental fixes and improvements, with minute detail on how she would enact them, what they would cost, and how long they'd take to enact.

He won.

Now, we see if those big, flashy, sexy changes actually get done, and how...or if he pivots to more moderate, more achievable positions. 

We just don't know. Personally, I think if he wants to keep congress on his side beyond the 2 year mark, he's gotta go that second route.  If he doesn't......his election won't matter much after 2018.

Edit: What's somewhat amusing in all this is, back in the late 90's, he said some pretty outrageous things about running as a republican, and then flipping the switch once elected.  No chance of that given his VP and rumored cabinet members....so barring a WWE style swerve, he's sticking to the platform..but it's interesting stuff, still.

[tim_m]

And maybe he'll be the worst president ever, but let's wait until he serves at least one day in office before we declare that. I think he deserves that much. I'd say the same for Hillary, even though she was severely flawed. There's no going back and changing the votes at this point. We weren't given a very good crop to choose from, to put it nicely. But we have to respect and accept the results and hope for the best. It seems at this point, a lot of people want him to fail, and I can't see the logic in that.

This is what I find so amusing in all this (and I'm not pointing at you, faldor...but those that voted for Trump, in general who are saying this)..the cry that "you have to give him a chance".  Like they gave Obama a chance?  The Repubs played obstructionist on day one, and the R voters and constituency all supported that tact. R voters, and their entire media arm from Beck, to Hannity, to Limbaugh were up in arms the day after he was elected and stayed that way til Nov 9th, 2016. They were bashing him before he was sworn in.  Yet...the tune changes when it's "their guy"....and ZERO understanding is given to that fact and that more people, in this country, actually voted for the other person this time.  So, yeah..."give him a chance"? I think, for a LOT of HRC voters, that's an unrealistic expectation AND it's hypocrisy for most R voters to ask for (or expect) that.

That, along with the "Our opinion matters, you have to listen to us"...all while decrying the opposing viewpoints right to do the same, and protest this win.

We've lost the ability to civilly disagree and debate in this country.  THIS thread should be paraded into every civics class, from 3rd grade to Senior year in college, as a demonstration on how this process should work. Listen. Be respectful. Make your case.

Is anyone changing minds? Probably not. But we all understand where the other is coming from.  That makes it a LOT easier to work together and enact change, because it makes it easier to do the one thing our government has totally forgotten how to do: compromise.

I don't see that changing in the next 4 years (and I don't mean that as a direct reflection on Trump, but one on our society as a whole).......we are about to be return the the 1930's era policy...traditionalist isolationism...and thats going to perpetuate things.

I don't remember protests being staged when Obama won, or any other time for that matter. I don't remember American flags being burned, or violence being threatened and even encouraged. It's a ugly end to an ugly campaign, so I guess it's to be expected. Maybe Trump supporters would have acted similarly if he lost, I guess we'll never know. But we live in a world today where if something doesn't go your way, you get out there to bitch and complain about it. Peaceful protests? That's debatable. 44% of registered voters didn't vote. Maybe next time do a better job at getting out there and voting for your candidate. The problem is, this result was so unexpected it caught most everyone off guard. It was believed to be in the bag. The only question was how much she would win by. Hillary supporters were busy celebrating with Bon Jovi, The Boss, and Katy Perry. Their cockiness changed to shock and awe in less than 24 hours.

I actually don't think the media has been that bad since the results. Some of the guests they have on to interview are giving their opposing viewpoints, but that's fine. It's a segment of the American people that have not reacted well and are completely unwilling to give this a chance. I just think this ugly campaign illustrates the landscape of the country right now. We live in a world where everyone gets a trophy or a pat on the back, yet when something doesn't go your way the switch is flipped and the venom comes out. You have angry protests, not just in this instance, that shut down major areas and cause severe traffic problems. Is that really the answer?

All of this over a candidate who was beyond flawed and as corrupt as they come. We knew we had a terrible choice to make. It was like picking the lesser of two evils. Is that really worth fighting and protesting over? Again, maybe this would still be happening if the results were the other way. So I'm not singling out Hillary supporters. This just seems to be a common theme in the country today, and to me it's not a good one.

That's a good point about voter turnout. Too many people stayed home and that is so disappointing. If any of the protesters are among those 46% who did not vote shame on them. They have no right to complain right now. They are why we have President Trump. Not to mention the 50k who voted for Hambre the dead ape.

[tim_m]

you are giving your opinion of his promises. other things he said? repeal Obamacare. that's as clear as it gets. 

I'm laying out what his promises WERE vs what he relayed in terms of how they would be executed.  His plans for building the wall and deportation forces....those aren't my opinions.  They're the opinions of the CBO, reputable economists, and reputable law enforcement/ICE agents.  Too expensive, logistically impossible.  Not the way he very cursorily outlined.  The rest...no opinions, because...no plans.

Repeal and replace.

Replace with what? "We're gonna have plans that are so good...believe me". 

That's as clear as....what?

And what's the time frame for that replacement? Or for the "repeal" (quotes used because it won't be a traditional repeal..it will be a budgetary measure) to go into efffect? Or how he will counteract the effect on the deficit? Or Medicare? What about preexisting conditions (he finally said within the last couple days...that will go bye bye)? Or keeping the kids on til 25? Or....the effect on existing plan premiums? Or the tax bit on "platinum plans"? Or....I mean...literally not one comment during the campaign of the specificity of one bit of that.

"I'm going to do this" isn't a plan.  It's a statement. It is, when you provide no substance, and empty promise.

And, FYI, THAT is why so many folks from the opposing point of view are so nervous.  Because they literally have no idea what he's going to actually DO.

he had MESSAGES that everyone can recite. I don't care if they are not likely or possible to occur. not my point at all. not to mention, that doesn't really matter in politics. having a message that resonates is politics 101. Hillary had no message. no one is reading 800 pages of policies.  she needed to communicate key points of what she would be focused on. she didn't do that.

He had SLOGANS that everyone can recite.  There is a difference, and it's not semantic.

Slogans are things like "Make america great again".

Messages are things like "We're going to make college affordable for everyone" and here's how (see policy on web site).

You said "empty promises" in your initial post....so....if you didn't mean empty promises, I'm not sure what you did mean.  That's the point I took issue with. If anyone was making empty promises...it was Trump.  Because he had no outlined policy to support them.

As for not reading 800 pages of policy..that's precisely my point.  People weren't voting for issues, or plans, or anything really concrete. This was not an electorate looking to be informed.  They were voting for change, no matter what form that took, no matter who was offering it. At the end of the day, they voted for empty promises, pipe dreams, and flash.  That might not have been WHY they voted for him, but it's what they voted FOR.

Which is fine..but lets not delude ourselves into thinking Trump laid out a concrete path to get from where we are to where he wants us to be.  He just said "Believe me"...and people did.

Now, he might actually be able to do some of this stuff...we don't know.  If he does...especially some of the infrastructure stuff...bully for him and us.

part of the problem was that she was very unavailable, didn't talk to the press, and disappeared out of the public eye for weeks at a time. then the majority of her commercials were negative, with no communication on her policies.

That's hyperbole.

She was never unavailable for "weeks at a time". Days, occasionally, as she recovered from pneumonia (that hurt her) and did debate prep (which you have to say payed off, mostly).  She didn't hold a presser for about am 8 week span, but she was available on the stump, in public, etc and did one on one interviews. By late August, she was having regular pressers again, and gaggle groups on the plane (and Trump shut up right before the first debate...and didn't really talk to anyone else from the press but Fox News for the rest of the campaign).

The majority of her commercials were negative (but so were his). She did communicate on her policies (again..800 pages on her web site...for anyone to read...and constant mentions in her stump speeches and debates) but she did it in the dryest, most boring way possible.  She was generally unlikeable, had a shit ton of Clinton-esque scandals following her around, and..in many cases..couldn't get out of her own way (that deplorables comment early on just KILLED her). She was certianly flawed, no doubt.  Her messages were clear...they just sucked in terms of delivery.

Again, we agree...she ran a terrible campaign.  And she had a couple external factors hounding her (Wikileaks and Comey's letter) that Trump didn't have to deal with, either.  Not that she didn't bring them on herself (Podesta must be the stupidest campaign manager in america to fall for a fishing scheme to get his email pw..and not have 2 factor authentication on his fucking google account)..she absolutely did. But all that hurt her too.

I maintain this was a Captain of the Football Team campaining on promises of no homework, junk food for lunch, and expulsion of all geeks vs the Nerdy Chess Club president who was unlikable to the extreme and a little shady, but promised things like a cleaner school, better resource access, and a better computer lab.  The Captain of the Football team won.  Now lets see how he does.

Cnn is reporting today he has said he's open to keeping some of Obamacare. We'll see which parts and if it comes to fruition. Now we also got the moron house speaker Ryan looking to push his agenda for privatizing medicare and making it a voucher system. Which is a beyond terrible idea.

[faldor]

I don't remember protests being staged when Obama won, or any other time for that matter. I don't remember American flags being burned, or violence being threatened and even encouraged. It's a ugly end to an ugly campaign, so I guess it's to be expected. Maybe Trump supporters would have acted similarly if he lost, I guess we'll never know. But we live in a world today where if something doesn't go your way, you get out there to bitch and complain about it. Peaceful protests? That's debatable. 44% of registered voters didn't vote. Maybe next time do a better job at getting out there and voting for your candidate. The problem is, this result was so unexpected it caught most everyone off guard. It was believed to be in the bag. The only question was how much she would win by. Hillary supporters were busy celebrating with Bon Jovi, The Boss, and Katy Perry. Their cockiness changed to shock and awe in less than 24 hours.

Define "protests".

You certainly had a riled up, polarized, electorate who were latching on to things like birtherism to try to deligitimize his presidency, or prevent him from taking office. 

And...whatever form they take...these are people expressing their opinion, peacefully (for the most part...I don't condone rioting and violence).  Whether you agree with them or not....just like you have the right to express your opinion, they have the right to express theirs.

And that's whats being "taken away" by many of the Trump supporters who are grousing about the protests and calls of discontent.  They get theirs...but nobody else gets theirs.  When it's them, it principaled objection.  When it's the other side, it's entitled whining.  The hypocrisy knows no bounds.

I actually don't think the media has been that bad since the results. Some of the guests they have on to interview are giving their opposing viewpoints, but that's fine. It's a segment of the American people that have not reacted well and are completely unwilling to give this a chance. I just think this ugly campaign illustrates the landscape of the country right now. We live in a world where everyone gets a trophy or a pat on the back, yet when something doesn't go your way the switch is flipped and the venom comes out. You have angry protests, not just in this instance, that shut down major areas and cause severe traffic problems. Is that really the answer?

Thats why the first amendment exists, actually.  So...yeah..its their answer.  And whether you agree or not, it's their right to do it.

I'd say this type of protest sort of shows off that people are not going to take some of his more extreme positions laying down.  It's a forewarning.

Sitting back and going along for the ride, as you're led to proverbial slaughter (keep in mind, their opinion, not mine) likely isn't the right answer for them, either.

Just as it wasn't for the Repubs when Obama was elected.

All of this over a candidate who was beyond flawed and as corrupt as they come. We knew we had a terrible choice to make. It was like picking the lesser of two evils. Is that really worth fighting and protesting over? Again, maybe this would still be happening if the results were the other way. So I'm not singling out Hillary supporters. This just seems to be a common theme in the country today, and to me it's not a good one.

It's not about the candidate who lost, IMHO. It's about the candidate who won.  You could throw Mickey Mouse up there as the alternative...and they'd be angry Trump won.  Their issue is...Trump, to them, is the GREATER of two evils. By a large margin. Not just ideologically opposite, but dangerous to their way of life and existence.  Thats the way they see it.  You have a large chunk of people who have heard him espouse extreme positions on Muslims, latinos, LGBTQ folks, and others who are wondering exactly what their place in a post Trump presidency is...and he hasn't exactly been forthcoming on details since the election.  You may see that as drama filled whining, but I can assure you...they don't.  And they are citizens. So I respect their right to make that dissatisfaction known. It is LITERALLY what the constitution was crafted to ensure the people could do.

I'm actually encouraged to see some political activism, no matter what form it takes.   Maybe people will start waking up and actually DOING something, instead of passively sitting back and watching consistently.  Or, maybe in 30 days, it all goes away and everyone is back to staring at their screens. We'll see.

You're right ultimately. Both parties are a major part of the problem. Neither side wants to play nice with the other. It's not very constructive. All these protests don't seem to accomplish much as far as I can tell. If each side could be willing to bend a little, we'd be much better off as a country. But the two party system has become so divisive ever since the 2000 election or so. It's been building ever since then, and there's no relief on the horizon. Obama didn't bring the country together and if this week is any indication, it doesn't appear Trump will do that either. Hillary wasn't going to do it, I don't know if there's a candidate out there who can. Bernie may have had the best shot. Who doesn't like free stuff?

[tim_m]

Race relations are just going to get worse too under Trump. He's not only made racism acceptable he's encouraged it. Just today my best friend, a friend of her's from high school, her daughter was beaten up by some white guys in a rusted pick up. They did it because she defended her african american friend that they called the n word.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Race relations are just going to get worse too under Trump. He's not only made racism acceptable he's encouraged it. Just today my best friend, a friend of her's from high school, her daughter was beaten up by some white guys in a rusted pick up. They did it because she defended her african american friend that they called the n word.

 Time will tell. Trump got a slightly higher percentage of the  Latino & Black vote compared to Romney even with the rhetoric, (actual and fabricated) & race relations weren't getting better under Obama, so there's that.

Let's see if Trump puts his money where his mouth is as far as revitalizing the inner cities. If he is able to pull that one off I think race relations will certainly improve.

 

[tim_m]

Race relations are just going to get worse too under Trump. He's not only made racism acceptable he's encouraged it. Just today my best friend, a friend of her's from high school, her daughter was beaten up by some white guys in a rusted pick up. They did it because she defended her african american friend that they called the n word.

 Time will tell. Trump got a slightly higher percentage of the  Latino & Black vote compared to Romney even with the rhetoric, (actual and fabricated) & race relations weren't getting better under Obama, so there's that.

Let's see if Trump puts his money where his mouth is as far as revitalizing the inner cities. If he is able to pull that one off I think race relations will certainly improve.

 

FYI a little more info on what happened. There were 4 guys in the truck. They kept driving past the two girls in question. Yelling Trump 2016. One of them said fuck Donald Trump. One of them got out and got in their face calling them dykes and n**g**. So they pushed him out of their face and that's when he socked the girl that pushed him and bloodied her face badly.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Race relations are just going to get worse too under Trump. He's not only made racism acceptable he's encouraged it. Just today my best friend, a friend of her's from high school, her daughter was beaten up by some white guys in a rusted pick up. They did it because she defended her african american friend that they called the n word.

 Time will tell. Trump got a slightly higher percentage of the  Latino & Black vote compared to Romney even with the rhetoric, (actual and fabricated) & race relations weren't getting better under Obama, so there's that.

Let's see if Trump puts his money where his mouth is as far as revitalizing the inner cities. If he is able to pull that one off I think race relations will certainly improve.

 

FYI a little more info on what happened. There were 4 guys in the truck. They kept driving past the two girls in question. Yelling Trump 2016. One of them said fuck Donald Trump. One of them got out and got in their face calling them dykes and n**g**. So they pushed him out of their face and that's when he socked the girl that pushed him and bloodied her face badly.

That is totally unacceptable, but this type of behavior isn't isolated to just the Trump supporters. Tensions were high for this election and there's bad behavior on both sides.

I dont think you can blame Trump for whats going on.

That would be like saying that this was Hillary's fault:

Man Beaten on Video as Onlookers Scream 'You Voted Trump' Speaks Out
 http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/video-group-beating-man-crowd-shouts-you-voted-trump-400894621.html

or this

Woodside: Attack on Trump-backing student spurs campus protest
http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/11/10/woodside-student-attacked-after-supporting-trump-on-social-media/

[faldor]

Yeah, there has been plenty of bad behavior on both sides, and there continues to be. Trump cannot control the actions of his supporters, nor can Hillary. It's ugly out there, and it's been that way for awhile. This hasn't happened overnight because of one man or one election. That may have been the tipping point, but we've been trending in this direction for quite some time.