DJ & Ron's Exits: A Silver Lining?

[jarmo]

And I agree, the guitar work on that album is very strong.

Hey, that's another thing we agree on.


I think I've mentioned it before, but Chinese is a guitar heavy album in a time when other bands used less guitars.
But a lot of people seemed to overlook that because they heard keyboards and samples. 



/jarmo

[EmilyGNR]

Most of my friends who like rock n' roll and such, enjoy Chinese Democracy. Most of the tracks.

But I have yet to hear one say they like Shackler's, Rhiad or Scraped. Even a very good friend of mine, hardcore Guns fan who grew up on them and is a musicican himself and totally fascinated by Axl's voice and performances, simply can not bring himself to listen to Scraped or Rhiad.

Weird.

That said, as someone mentioned here above, to me Shackler's is Democracy's Brownstone.



 

That's very strange, reminds me of how The Stones' Exile on Main Street was really panned by both fans and critics, only to be appreciated years later.

I personally think the music on CD is very strong, some narrow-minded individuals won't give it a chance because they perceive it as different, or a departure- when in reality it is just a continuation and an evolution much in the way that the Illusions were an evolution from Appetite.

[DeN]

Shackler would have been a great first single, it's catchy, rock, and modern.

[LongGoneDay]

Most of my friends who like rock n' roll and such, enjoy Chinese Democracy. Most of the tracks.

But I have yet to hear one say they like Shackler's, Rhiad or Scraped. Even a very good friend of mine, hardcore Guns fan who grew up on them and is a musicican himself and totally fascinated by Axl's voice and performances, simply can not bring himself to listen to Scraped or Rhiad.

Weird.

That said, as someone mentioned here above, to me Shackler's is Democracy's Brownstone.



 

That's very strange, reminds me of how The Stones' Exile on Main Street was really panned by both fans and critics, only to be appreciated years later.

I personally think the music on CD is very strong, some narrow-minded individuals won't give it a chance because they perceive it as different, or a departure- when in reality it is just a continuation and an evolution much in the way that the Illusions were an evolution from Appetite.

It?s really not that strange.

Exile on Main Street is one of the greatest records of all time, and stylistically not far off from Beggars, Let it Bleed, Sticky etc.

Chinese Democracy is not a continuation, and it?s not an evolution. It is different. It is a departure.
That?s not a narrow minded view, that?s the reality of the situation.

The band that crafted AFD, Lies and the Illusions imploded.
An entirely new band of players was assembled. People with different musical backgrounds, influences, life experiences and playing styles.
They happened to play under the same banner, but that is essentially where the similarities end.

Revolution would be a more appropriate description.

[sky dog]

It is not a departure lyrically....how is SOD or Catcher or TWAT or Sorry or Irs or This I love or Madagascar far off the Illusions?

[LongGoneDay]

It is not a departure lyrically....how is SOD or Catcher or TWAT or Sorry or Irs or This I love or Madagascar far off the Illusions?

I think if it sounds like an evolution to your ears, than that is all that matters.
I, and most, would certainly not agree, but you could say the band was successful in making a record that sounds like a natural progression.
But the fact remains, they had no hand in the prior records. For all we know, they never heard, or liked the prior records.

Do you think Bumblefoot wanted to expand upon Slash?s sound? or leave his own mark as a musician?
Does anyone truly believe a song like Shackler?s Revenge is a sound Izzy Stradlin would be interested in playing/crafting?
And even if you think he would/could, isn?t that a disservice to Buckethead?

It?s a different set of musicians, and they are not interchangeable.

Axl?s lyrics, sure, you can file those under evolution as he was there.
In some ways, Street of Dreams sounds like November Rain light to my ears, or a UYI B-Side because of Axl?s voice and piano but the guitars, as great as they sound, do not sound like an evolution from prior records. They sound like different players altogether. Because that?s exactly what they are.

It?s not meant as a knock to say it?s not an evolution. There are songs I rather enjoy on Chinese, but would never make the leap that it?s the progression of Guns N? Roses, when it?s an entirely different set of players. If that were the case, let?s say Axl get?s drunk and decides to sell the GN?R name to Izzy.
Izzy (and Dizzy for good measure) then put a mariachi band together and records, releases Use Your Illusion IV, the search for III, the next day. Would that be an evolution of the GN?R sound? Is just having a player from previous records, and the rights to the name all you need?

[D-GenerationX]

Chinese Democracy is not a continuation, and it?s not an evolution. It is different. It is a departure.
That?s not a narrow minded view, that?s the reality of the situation.

The band that crafted AFD, Lies and the Illusions imploded.
An entirely new band of players was assembled. People with different musical backgrounds, influences, life experiences and playing styles.
They happened to play under the same banner, but that is essentially where the similarities end.

Revolution would be a more appropriate description.

Agreed. 

It's a fork in the road, not a continuation down the same stretch of highway.

[D-GenerationX]

It is not a departure lyrically....how is SOD or Catcher or TWAT or Sorry or Irs or This I love or Madagascar far off the Illusions?

I think you went a step too far with 'Sorry'.  'Sorry' would sound totally out of place on UYI albums.  Though I do agree the others would fit.

[D-GenerationX]

It?s a different set of musicians, and they are not interchangeable.

Axl?s lyrics, sure, you can file those under evolution as he was there.
In some ways, Street of Dreams sounds like November Rain light to my ears, or a UYI B-Side because of Axl?s voice and piano but the guitars, as great as they sound, do not sound like an evolution from prior records. They sound like different players altogether. Because that?s exactly what they are.

It?s not meant as a knock to say it?s not an evolution. There are songs I rather enjoy on Chinese, but would never make the leap that it?s the progression of Guns N? Roses, when it?s an entirely different set of players. If that were the case, let?s say Axl get?s drunk and decides to sell the GN?R name to Izzy.
Izzy (and Dizzy for good measure) then put a mariachi band together and records, releases Use Your Illusion IV, the search for III, the next day. Would that be an evolution of the GN?R sound? Is just having a player from previous records, and the rights to the name all you need?

Great points.

I like that last paragraph, in particular.  Its why you have to be careful how rigidly you define things to make them work in your head.

[pilferk]

It is not a departure lyrically....how is SOD or Catcher or TWAT or Sorry or Irs or This I love or Madagascar far off the Illusions?

I don't think..and I know I'm in the minority, here...that MOST of CD is a HUGE departure from the Axl contributions to the Illusions.  In fact, I can see a pretty clear musical evolution/genesis from there to here.

BUT, that being said, CD is considered such a radical departure from AFD and UYI because, IMHO, you don't have the Slash/Duff/Izzy contributions.  So, without those "mix ins", the overall sound of the album is (understandably) different.

[sky dog]

I don't really see the guitars as an evolution as they are radically different in style than UYI.....more the increase of keyboards, orchestral arrangements, etc as a logical evolution of Axl's contributions to the Illusions. Really, it is evolution musically and lyrically on Axl's part. 

I don't know...just rambling. 

[EmilyGNR]

Most of my friends who like rock n' roll and such, enjoy Chinese Democracy. Most of the tracks.

But I have yet to hear one say they like Shackler's, Rhiad or Scraped. Even a very good friend of mine, hardcore Guns fan who grew up on them and is a musicican himself and totally fascinated by Axl's voice and performances, simply can not bring himself to listen to Scraped or Rhiad.

Weird.

That said, as someone mentioned here above, to me Shackler's is Democracy's Brownstone.



 

That's very strange, reminds me of how The Stones' Exile on Main Street was really panned by both fans and critics, only to be appreciated years later.

I personally think the music on CD is very strong, some narrow-minded individuals won't give it a chance because they perceive it as different, or a departure- when in reality it is just a continuation and an evolution much in the way that the Illusions were an evolution from Appetite.

It?s really not that strange.

Exile on Main Street is one of the greatest records of all time, and stylistically not far off from Beggars, Let it Bleed, Sticky etc.

Chinese Democracy is not a continuation, and it?s not an evolution. It is different. It is a departure.
That?s not a narrow minded view, that?s the reality of the situation.

The band that crafted AFD, Lies and the Illusions imploded.
An entirely new band of players was assembled. People with different musical backgrounds, influences, life experiences and playing styles.
They happened to play under the same banner, but that is essentially where the similarities end.

Revolution would be a more appropriate description.

It isn't an "entirely" different band, you still have the main song/lyric writer present, and steering- Some of the songs are very different than Appetite, but you can say that of the illusions as well.

My comparison to Exile seems to have been misinterpreted, sure it is a great album- BUT it was at first reviled by critics  read up on your music history. I think in time, like exile-chidem will be appreciated more.

While different, and recorded by a different lineup, I do think Chidem retained the GNR flavor, I can hear echoes and various similarities with other GNR songs in many of the cuts- so, yes I think it is both a new beginning as well as an evolution of previous albums.

[sofine11]

Well, unless things have drastically changed since that 2009 interview, he DID say the "same players" are featured on the next album, as in primarily Robin & Buckethead, with maybe some bits from Ron and Richard.

We can only hope the upcoming news Fernando & Frank have mentioned is regarding its release.

[LongGoneDay]

Most of my friends who like rock n' roll and such, enjoy Chinese Democracy. Most of the tracks.

But I have yet to hear one say they like Shackler's, Rhiad or Scraped. Even a very good friend of mine, hardcore Guns fan who grew up on them and is a musicican himself and totally fascinated by Axl's voice and performances, simply can not bring himself to listen to Scraped or Rhiad.

Weird.

That said, as someone mentioned here above, to me Shackler's is Democracy's Brownstone.



 

That's very strange, reminds me of how The Stones' Exile on Main Street was really panned by both fans and critics, only to be appreciated years later.

I personally think the music on CD is very strong, some narrow-minded individuals won't give it a chance because they perceive it as different, or a departure- when in reality it is just a continuation and an evolution much in the way that the Illusions were an evolution from Appetite.

It?s really not that strange.

Exile on Main Street is one of the greatest records of all time, and stylistically not far off from Beggars, Let it Bleed, Sticky etc.

Chinese Democracy is not a continuation, and it?s not an evolution. It is different. It is a departure.
That?s not a narrow minded view, that?s the reality of the situation.

The band that crafted AFD, Lies and the Illusions imploded.
An entirely new band of players was assembled. People with different musical backgrounds, influences, life experiences and playing styles.
They happened to play under the same banner, but that is essentially where the similarities end.

Revolution would be a more appropriate description.

It isn't an "entirely" different band, you still have the main song/lyric writer present, and steering- Some of the songs are very different than Appetite, but you can say that of the illusions as well.

My comparison to Exile seems to have been misinterpreted, sure it is a great album- BUT it was at first reviled by critics  read up on your music history.

While different, and recorded by a different lineup, I do think Chidem retained the GNR flavor, I can hear echoes and various similarities with other GNR songs in many of the cuts- so, yes I think it is both a new beginning as well as an evolution of previous albums.

Fair enough.

I got your Exile comparison.
It?s my desert island album, so I?ve read up on it?s history more than I?d care to admit.

[D-GenerationX]

I love the Stones, but would take 'Let It Bleed' or 'Sticky Fingers' over 'Exile'.

I even think 'Some Girls' is a dark horse.

[sofine11]

I love the Stones, but would take 'Let It Bleed' or 'Sticky Fingers' over 'Exile'.

I even think 'Some Girls' is a dark horse.

Some Girls is the quintessential "Ronnie" Stones album IMO.  Mixed his country flare from Faces with Keith's dirty rhythms. Pure Magic.

I always go back and forth as to whether my favorite Stones album is Sticky Fingers or Exile though.  Every time I hear 'Rocks Off' I'm just transported.  Such a dirty, mean track.  Then again, Sticky Fingers could win just for Mick Taylor's insane solo on 'Sway'.  God I fuckin' love the Stones.

[jarmo]

Sway eh? Remember when GN'R covered it?




/jarmo

[sofine11]

Sway eh? Remember when GN'R covered it?




/jarmo

Holy crap, I totally forgot they covered that with Izzy in '06.  Just gave it a listen.  Man Axl was really into the lyrics.  The man has good tastes haha.

[C0ma]

It is not a departure lyrically....how is SOD or Catcher or TWAT or Sorry or Irs or This I love or Madagascar far off the Illusions?

I don't think..and I know I'm in the minority, here...that MOST of CD is a HUGE departure from the Axl contributions to the Illusions.  In fact, I can see a pretty clear musical evolution/genesis from there to here.

BUT, that being said, CD is considered such a radical departure from AFD and UYI because, IMHO, you don't have the Slash/Duff/Izzy contributions.  So, without those "mix ins", the overall sound of the album is (understandably) different.

I would agree, I feel that of the 14 songs, there are really only 3 (Shackler, Scraped, and Sorry) that are a big change from previous GnR material and I chock that up to the larger influence on those songs from Buckethead (they are his only writing and arraignment credits). Again, I am not saying they are terrible, they just aren't my cup of tea. I bought a lot of his solo material in the early to mid 2000's and tried to make myself like it but I just can't.

The other 11 tracks, I love... call me 'closed minded' but Buckethead in my opinion doesn't write good music. I'm sure there are artists and styles of music people on this forum can't get on board with, which is to be expected, but as an example if you hate country music and suddenly they hire a bluegrass guitar player and he writes a song that makes CD2 (or whatever it will be called) you don't have to like it just because it was released under the name GnR.

[estebanf]

I want to hear more from the Bucket/Finck era.

I think that's what the majority of the die-hard fans desire, including me of course. My perception is there is a lot of very strong material floating around, and Axl -being a perfectionist as he is- doesn't want to discard it just because the exact personnel that created it is not in the band right now. I also think the previous 10 years of the release of ChiDem were a very productive (creatively) time for Axl (for lots of reasons), and time made him realise DJ and Ron are very very far from Robin and Bucket in terms of creativity and talent (in fact, I dont think you have to be the brightest person in the world to realise that).

Could it be that DJ caught wind that the next album WOULD NOT contain anything he wrote and, if he continued with Guns next year, it would simply involve him "filling in" when said tracks are released?

I think this is the most likely option, and I really hope this is what actually happened. Knowing an album is in the works, that this album is going to have songs written in the good old days with Robin and Bucket (most talented persons that have been part of this band apart from Axl), and that DJ leaves the band because Axl showed no intention of letting him create stuff for the band (or the stuff DJ gave to Axl was not at ''GNR level'') would be all very GOOD NEWS for me.

Honestly, I'd be more than happy with Robin and Richard as a duo going forward.  Their chemistry is also extremely dynamic and I'd love to see that live again.

At this point, in my very humble opinion, getting Robin back in the band and working with just 2 guitarists would be the best option (considering Bucket would never return to the band). Richard is an EXTREMELY talented guitarist that never had enough space in the band to totally prove it. And Robin... well, we all know who's robin onstage and inside a studio.

Yeah, I remember the first time I listened to it in 2008 I was blown away by how "different" it was, even from the other Chinese tracks we heard up to that point.  There's just so much going on, I could see why it would scare away traditional "rawk" fans.

Edit: I'm hoping the final version of 'Silkworms' has just as much going on, assuming we get to hear it one of these years. 

I'm also expecting to hear ''Silkworms''! i'm sure it will be a killer tune. I am a great fan of ''experimental'' songs. I love when artists, knowing what's the ''safe'' path to repeat success, choose to pick the difficult path of innovation. And Axl knows how to innovate, and Robin & Bucket were the perfect people to innovate (and that's why the old-school fans hate them), not the case of DJ and Ron at all.