DJ's Letter

[jarmo]

I'm under no delusions as to what you are.  An advocate.  A cheerleader.  A press agent.

A fan.

I'm just pointing out that a guy with more skin in the game doesn't feel the need to take things to that level.  And to me, that's sort of odd.

If you don't agree, you don't agree.  I'm good with it.

I pointed out that if you think, you might realize that it's not really odd at all.
But I've come to realize that's not something you're interested in.


/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

You are so consistently eager to rationalize why act the way you act.  Despite me never really having any questions about it.  Believe me, I'm all set on that.

This was not about how you roll, but the disparity between your caliber of answers and Fernando's.  As I said, if you don't agree with the difference, if there is a difference, or whatever...let it go.

And please spare me the 47th retelling about you setting up a site you'd like to visit.  I'm pretty sure *I* could give that speech at this point from the sheer repetition of hearing it.

[jarmo]

If somebody questions something I say and/or do, I can explain the thought(s) behind it. Simple as that.

Just because one person makes statements about me and what makes me post the way I do, doesn't mean that's the truth. Everybody can see that.

Different people with different experiences.
Just because we like the same band, doesn't mean we're alike.



/jarmo

[LongGoneDay]

But in that essence you kind of have to respect Axl and for that matter the rest of the originals (except Adler). I don't think any of them would do it unless it felt right. At this point I think Van Halen are totally doing it as a quick cash grab. Eddie makes no bones that there is no relationship between himself and Roth.

I totally disagree. 

I would trade places with Van Halen's fanbase in a new york minute.  Or The Eagles fanbase.  Or The Stones fanbase.  Or Aerosmith's fanbase.  Basically, any other band where the principals were smart enough to look at the big picture and say "wait...what are we doing here?"

One man's "hell with the pressure, I'm not caving in" is another man's cutting off his nose to spite his face.

How righteous and commendable Axl's decision has been is in the eye of the beholder, at least as it pertains to him personally. 

But what I feel can not be disputed in any way, shape, or form, is that its not helped him from a business perspective.  Nor have the fans benefitted from it.

If we are talking about fan bases I agree. If your a fan of the old band (which I am)it sucks that you will probably never see them perform together again. In terms of business perspective I agree also. They could make a ton of money by saying Fuck it and just going out on the road.

But you have to admire the fact that Axl won't cave in and give in to the public and industry pressure to make him reunite with the old band. I give him that much.

It's a business and the bands that you mentioned in your post are totally taking advantage of the fact that they can go out and make a ton of money by going out on tour.

It seems to me that to Axl its more than just going out for business sake. 

In what way is it admirable?
Why is it admirable to do the exact opposite of what your 99.9% of your fan base would like to see?
I don?t see how that would be caving in to pressure.

I have no idea what went on to create the bad blood between he and Slash.
Maybe it truly was something horrible and unforgivable, and no amount of money would be enough to reconcile.
If that?s the case, fine, I get it. But I would think that ?something" would have leaked by now.

I fail to see how essentially choking the life out of a once great band could be seen as admirable.
He surely isn?t solely to blame, but he definitely has his share of blood on his hands.

He once spoke of moving the band forward, and that has yet to come close to happening, and honestly, that ship sailed a long, long time ago.
It was a long shot to begin with, but decades later, is a pipe dream at best.
Guns N? Roses became a touring act. That?s where the money is.
It?s no longer a creative outlet, so I fail to see how Axl today is treating Guns N? Roses as anything but a business.
In this case he just gets to have his cake and eat it too.

It shows that he at least has principles and sticks to his "Guns".

Realistically, and lets be real here....A reunion would bring in a ton more money than going out with the current lineup(is there one?). So if he is treating it as solely a business venture then its a poor one.

I honestly don't think he should be giving fans what they want to see. Its not about that. Its about being true to yourself, your band and the music. Now we can make an argument if hes been true to his music or his band.

If that?s the case, sticking to his ?Guns? seems detrimental to the creation of art, and the legacy of Guns N? Roses.
Sticking to his principles could also be described as the definition of crazy, since all it seems to accomplish is the defection of bandmates, and of course the endless stacks of classic albums kept in the ?vault".

This would be all well and good if it were just Axl and his own career that was taking the hit, but he decided to take cover underneath the GN?R banner.
Yes, I?m sure a reunion would still be a nice pay day, but he?s touring as Guns N? Roses with Frank, Richard and whomever else for a reason.

Izzy, Slash, Duff and Matt were not interested in being Axl?s employees. Axl gets to call the shots now. He get?s to make the decision to tour, or not to tour.
To record and release music, or to not.

No one?s saying that Axl needs to let the fans dictate his course of action.
When Guns N? Roses was at the top of their game, it wasn?t about what Axl wanted to do, it was about what the band, Guns N? Roses wanted to do.
If we?ve learned anything about post Illusions GN'R, it?s that not much gets accomplished with Axl at the helm.

What ?band? is he being true to?
What ?music? is he being true to?

Axl may be on the same page with a few posters here, but he doesn?t seem to be on the same page with many members in his own band.

Axl turned Guns N? Roses into a job, and Slash, Izzy, Duff and Matt aren?t tripping over each other to send in their resumes to work for him.
Steven is probably in the mailbox, but I think a large part of that is due to the fact he didn?t go out on his terms.

I think if we are to hear the amazing talents of Axl again, it would require him joining a band, as an equal.
It worked out pretty well for him in the past.

[Ow-So7411501]

But you have to admire the fact that Axl won't cave in and give in to the public and industry pressure to make him reunite with the old band. I give him that much.

But to what end?

To this?  What *this* really what you thought he was going to do once he took over?

That's more my point here.  I think your argument is far stronger if you could say, no, he's not reuniting his old band...because he has all this going on with the new band.  Like if he built a whole other life for himself.

But this...whatever the hell this is, its not that.

That's a separate argument though. Do I think he could've done a lot more with the name....absolutely. The argument that I was making was that you kind of have to admire the fact that he simply wont give in to what the industry wants. To him it has to be under the right circumstances (whether they are right or wrong who the hell knows).

On a side note, I saw Van Halen over the weekend and while it was a good show you could really tell that DLR and EVH were not on the same page. It just seemed weird. Also those of you who complain about Axl's singing should check out DLR (his voice is shot). Meanwhile those songs are not as taxing on the voice as GNR's are.

[Ow-So7411501]

But in that essence you kind of have to respect Axl and for that matter the rest of the originals (except Adler). I don't think any of them would do it unless it felt right. At this point I think Van Halen are totally doing it as a quick cash grab. Eddie makes no bones that there is no relationship between himself and Roth.

I totally disagree. 

I would trade places with Van Halen's fanbase in a new york minute.  Or The Eagles fanbase.  Or The Stones fanbase.  Or Aerosmith's fanbase.  Basically, any other band where the principals were smart enough to look at the big picture and say "wait...what are we doing here?"

One man's "hell with the pressure, I'm not caving in" is another man's cutting off his nose to spite his face.

How righteous and commendable Axl's decision has been is in the eye of the beholder, at least as it pertains to him personally. 

But what I feel can not be disputed in any way, shape, or form, is that its not helped him from a business perspective.  Nor have the fans benefitted from it.

If we are talking about fan bases I agree. If your a fan of the old band (which I am)it sucks that you will probably never see them perform together again. In terms of business perspective I agree also. They could make a ton of money by saying Fuck it and just going out on the road.

But you have to admire the fact that Axl won't cave in and give in to the public and industry pressure to make him reunite with the old band. I give him that much.

It's a business and the bands that you mentioned in your post are totally taking advantage of the fact that they can go out and make a ton of money by going out on tour.

It seems to me that to Axl its more than just going out for business sake. 

In what way is it admirable?
Why is it admirable to do the exact opposite of what your 99.9% of your fan base would like to see?
I don?t see how that would be caving in to pressure.

I have no idea what went on to create the bad blood between he and Slash.
Maybe it truly was something horrible and unforgivable, and no amount of money would be enough to reconcile.
If that?s the case, fine, I get it. But I would think that ?something" would have leaked by now.

I fail to see how essentially choking the life out of a once great band could be seen as admirable.
He surely isn?t solely to blame, but he definitely has his share of blood on his hands.

He once spoke of moving the band forward, and that has yet to come close to happening, and honestly, that ship sailed a long, long time ago.
It was a long shot to begin with, but decades later, is a pipe dream at best.
Guns N? Roses became a touring act. That?s where the money is.
It?s no longer a creative outlet, so I fail to see how Axl today is treating Guns N? Roses as anything but a business.
In this case he just gets to have his cake and eat it too.

It shows that he at least has principles and sticks to his "Guns".

Realistically, and lets be real here....A reunion would bring in a ton more money than going out with the current lineup(is there one?). So if he is treating it as solely a business venture then its a poor one.

I honestly don't think he should be giving fans what they want to see. Its not about that. Its about being true to yourself, your band and the music. Now we can make an argument if hes been true to his music or his band.

If that?s the case, sticking to his ?Guns? seems detrimental to the creation of art, and the legacy of Guns N? Roses.
Sticking to his principles could also be described as the definition of crazy, since all it seems to accomplish is the defection of bandmates, and of course the endless stacks of classic albums kept in the ?vault".

This would be all well and good if it were just Axl and his own career that was taking the hit, but he decided to take cover underneath the GN?R banner.
Yes, I?m sure a reunion would still be a nice pay day, but he?s touring as Guns N? Roses with Frank, Richard and whomever else for a reason.

Izzy, Slash, Duff and Matt were not interested in being Axl?s employees. Axl gets to call the shots now. He get?s to make the decision to tour, or not to tour.
To record and release music, or to not.

No one?s saying that Axl needs to let the fans dictate his course of action.
When Guns N? Roses was at the top of their game, it wasn?t about what Axl wanted to do, it was about what the band, Guns N? Roses wanted to do.
If we?ve learned anything about post Illusions GN'R, it?s that not much gets accomplished with Axl at the helm.

What ?band? is he being true to?
What ?music? is he being true to?

Axl may be on the same page with a few posters here, but he doesn?t seem to be on the same page with many members in his own band.

Axl turned Guns N? Roses into a job, and Slash, Izzy, Duff and Matt aren?t tripping over each other to send in their resumes to work for him.
Steven is probably in the mailbox, but I think a large part of that is due to the fact he didn?t go out on his terms.

I think if we are to hear the amazing talents of Axl again, it would require him joining a band, as an equal.
It worked out pretty well for him in the past.

I'm not disagreeing with you. My point is that there is something to be said for someone who for whatever strange or convoluted reasons sticks to his own principles. The easy thing for him to do would be to reunite the band. But I think he would only do it if he felt that it was for the right reasons.

[D-GenerationX]

If somebody questions something I say and/or do, I can explain the thought(s) behind it. Simple as that.

Just because one person makes statements about me and what makes me post the way I do, doesn't mean that's the truth. Everybody can see that.

Agreed.

[D-GenerationX]

On a side note, I saw Van Halen over the weekend and while it was a good show you could really tell that DLR and EVH were not on the same page. It just seemed weird. Also those of you who complain about Axl's singing should check out DLR (his voice is shot). Meanwhile those songs are not as taxing on the voice as GNR's are.

I've heard the same thing about his voice.

And I don't know how many rap fans we have here, but Dr. Dre just released a new album last week.  It got pretty glowing reviews everywhere.  But there was one consistent quibble : what's with his voice?  And to be fair, he does sound pretty different.

But in comments sections and message boards, its playing out just like we do with Axl.  You see all the same stuff :

- it sounds way different vs. it still sounds the same
- its not as good vs. its just as good
- he's older now, what do you expect? vs. so is <insert name here> but he sounds the same

The only one missing is telling people they are fake fans, bad fans, disloyal fans, etc.  That sort of eating our own type behavior seems to be exclusive to us.

[jarmo]

The only one missing is telling people they are fake fans, bad fans, disloyal fans, etc.  That sort of eating our own type behavior seems to be exclusive to us.

So you're special!

Just kidding.

I don't think it's exclusive to GN'R at all. Like most things that some think only happen to G'NR or are GN'R specific.
It's pretty safe to say that GN'R fans are part of humanity and therefore aren't that different from the rest of the planet..... I've come across a bunch of GN'R fans in different places and that's the conclusion I've come to. You may not believe me, but that's what I believe. 



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

I don't think it's exclusive to GN'R at all. Like most things that some think only happen to G'NR or are GN'R specific.
It's pretty safe to say that GN'R fans are part of humanity and therefore aren't that different from the rest of the planet..... I've come across a bunch of GN'R fans in different places and that's the conclusion I've come to. You may not believe me, but that's what I believe. 

I've been on several other boards for many artists.

I will say I have never seen the sheer amount of "then why don't you go follow someone else?" like I do with our crew.

[LongGoneDay]

I'm not disagreeing with you. My point is that there is something to be said for someone who for whatever strange or convoluted reasons sticks to his own principles. The easy thing for him to do would be to reunite the band. But I think he would only do it if he felt that it was for the right reasons.

It?s a popular point of view, but I?m just not sure how ?easy? it would be to reunite the band.
Sure tensions have cooled with Duff and Izzy, but think a reunion would still be a long shot.

There seems to be this, in my eyes, very flawed perception that the alumni is waiting by the phone for Axl?s call.
They are the ones that left. A long time ago.

Slash, Duff, Izzy and Matt have all proven successful since.
I don?t see why they would decide to return, unless it was as equals.

Slash and Duff are so far unwilling to work with Weiland in VR, at a time when rock and roll singers appear to be on the verge of extinction.
Axl and the alumni seem to be doing just fine financially. They all appear to be various degrees of stubborn.
I?m not sure they find the desire, or common ground to make a reunion possible.

I think it?s far easier for Axl to keep replacing the replacements until his hearts content.
Slash, Duff and Izzy aren?t going to sit around and wait to see if Axl feels like joining them in the studio today.
They weren?t willing to do that in their 20?s. Why would they put up with it now?

Guitarists trying to make a name for themselves like Fortus, like Bumblefoot etc.
They will put up with it until it?s time to for someone else to.

[WAR41]

I don't think it's exclusive to GN'R at all. Like most things that some think only happen to G'NR or are GN'R specific.
It's pretty safe to say that GN'R fans are part of humanity and therefore aren't that different from the rest of the planet..... I've come across a bunch of GN'R fans in different places and that's the conclusion I've come to. You may not believe me, but that's what I believe. 

I've been on several other boards for many artists.

I will say I have never seen the sheer amount of "then why don't you go follow someone else?" like I do with our crew.

I can't believe this is going on 30 pages. 

I took the advice bolded above and have started following other bands.  My passion for GNR has all but vanished and this is solely because of the decisions made by Axl.  I know he won't be losing any sleep tonight over that comment, but I am sure there are others like me out there.  I come to this site and MYGNR out of habit at this point. 

[jarmo]

I will say I have never seen the sheer amount of "then why don't you go follow someone else?" like I do with our crew.

Maybe those people have their own sites!

"If you don't like it, leave/don't go to the _______" seems to be a common response though.
I guess just because it's applied to your kind occasionally, you feel like it only happens to you...?

When Guns N? Roses was at the top of their game, it wasn?t about what Axl wanted to do, it was about what the band, Guns N? Roses wanted to do.
If we?ve learned anything about post Illusions GN'R, it?s that not much gets accomplished with Axl at the helm.

Yes, in the beginning they all had a common goal. But I think over time, people got other "interests". How do you get bigger from big?
Axl was the one with some ideas. I'm sure you knew this already, but it sometimes needs to be repeated since people seem to forget a simple thing like music videos and how important those epic videos were for the band's legacy. Just an example of how one man had ideas that the others might not have had... And I'm not disrespecting or discrediting anybody's input into making GN'R into what it is.

What ?band? is he being true to?
What ?music? is he being true to?

GN'R and his music.
You think of band as a group of people who stick together for life. Sometimes it works that way. Other times, not.
Guns N' Roses is a name of a band. Anything put out using that name needs to be up to the quality standards that Axl has.

I think if we are to hear the amazing talents of Axl again, it would require him joining a band, as an equal.
It worked out pretty well for him in the past.

It did?

I can't believe this is going on 30 pages. 

I took the advice bolded above and have started following other bands.  My passion for GNR has all but vanished and this is solely because of the decisions made by Axl.  I know he won't be losing any sleep tonight over that comment, but I am sure there are others like me out there.  I come to this site and MYGNR out of habit at this point. 

That's a pretty normal thing to do.
A lot of people "lose" interest and then come back once there's something new. It's life.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

I took the advice bolded above and have started following other bands.  My passion for GNR has all but vanished and this is solely because of the decisions made by Axl.  I know he won't be losing any sleep tonight over that comment, but I am sure there are others like me out there.  I come to this site and MYGNR out of habit at this point. 

Which is unfortunate.  Someone like you was exactly who I was talking about when I said a page or so back that the fanbase has not benefitted from all this.

There are far less of us, for openers.  And each passing year, more and more of the dwindling number that remain seem to say they follow out of habit but have no more fire for it.

It's a shame.

[D-GenerationX]

Maybe those people have their own sites!

"If you don't like it, leave/don't go to the _______" seems to be a common response though.

This place fills a very important void because there just aren't a lot of spots you can seriously talk about the band's present and future.

But anyone who comes here is making the declaration they are still interested in that present and future.  Telling them to "go follow someone else if they don't like it" is foolishness.  By virtue of coming here, they are telling you they still like it.

There is a difference between wanting to maintain a positive vibe, and building a bunker to protect yourself from the cold, cruel world.  At least...there should be. 

[jarmo]

Let me ask you this, do you think it helps the fan base, or the outside world's view of the band, by constantly pointing out how the band is doing things wrong or reminding people that the band has a reputation of canceling shows?

Now, I expect some post about how it's all Axl's fault...  

But anyone who comes here is making the declaration they are still interested in that present and future.  Telling them to "go follow someone else if they don't like it" is foolishness.  By virtue of coming here, they are telling you they still like it.

I don't agree 100% with that. I've seen enough evidence of people who seem to have very little interest in liking the band. Unless the band changes!

That's the part I don't get.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

I think if we are to hear the amazing talents of Axl again, it would require him joining a band, as an equal.
It worked out pretty well for him in the past.

It did?

Of course it did.  

Their run from 1988-1993 is rather hard to be described as anything but wildly successful.

Can you say the same about 2000 onwards though?  Tough sell.

And what is the difference between the 2 eras?  The set-up of the band and its whole operation.

[D-GenerationX]

Let me ask you this, do you think it helps the fan base, or the outside world's view of the band, by constantly pointing out how the band is doing things wrong or reminding people that the band has a reputation of canceling shows?

I think we should not be afraid to have an honest discussion about it with fellow fans.  They are only ones as interested in the comings and goings of this man and his band.

Where else are we supposed to have that conversation?  The dinner table?  On dates?

[The Prez]

I can't believe this is going on 30 pages. 

I took the advice bolded above and have started following other bands.  My passion for GNR has all but vanished and this is solely because of the decisions made by Axl.  I know he won't be losing any sleep tonight over that comment, but I am sure there are others like me out there.  I come to this site and MYGNR out of habit at this point. 

I somehow understand your reply...  people start to move on and don't care so much anymore about our fav band. Which is a pity ofcourse.
It has been a very long time that I visited this board (I'm talking about 2-3 years perhaps) but out of curiosity - as a long time member - I once came back to have a look last week.
After reading several posts, it's clear to me that a lot of fans do not believe in a future anymore for this band, and I am one of them I think. I think it's over, my hopes for new music is gone.

[jarmo]

Of course it did.  

Their run from 1988-1993 is rather hard to be described as anything but wildly successful.

Can you say the same about 2000 onwards though?  Tough sell.

And what is the difference between the 2 eras?  The set-up of the band and its whole operation.

Didn't they stop being equals once Steven was fired?

After that it was Axl, Slash and management. Duff was consulted about things. Izzy wasn't really involved.

I think the whole equals thing and having common goals stopped way before 1993.

I think we should not be afraid to have an honest discussion about it with fellow fans.  They are only ones as interested in the comings and goings of this man and his band.

Where else are we supposed to have that conversation?  The dinner table?  On dates?

My opinion still is, if an outsider looks at a fan site where a majority of posts are negative, (s)he'll get the impression that not even the hardcore fans like the band.
That isn't exactly good for anything or anybody.

I have zero interest in assisting that kind of behavior. Sorry.



/jarmo