Can we put the name issue to bed...the man's words

[sky dog]

Why keep the name? I?m literally the last man standing. Not bragging, not proud. It?s been a fucking nightmare but I didn?t leave Guns and I didn?t drive others out. With Slash it?s been nothing more than pure strategy and saving face while manipulating the public like he used to me. I earned the right to protect my efforts and to be able to take advantage of our contract I?d worked hard for where Slash?s exact words were that he didn?t care. I get that some like a different version or lineup the same way some like a specific team line up or a particular year of a specific car but because you and I are getting played I?m supposed to throw the baby out with the bath water?

I didn?t make a solo record. A solo record would be completely different than this and probably much more instrumental. I made a Guns record with the right people who were the only people who really wanted to help me try, were qualified and capable while enduring the public abuse for years . The songs were chosen by everyone involved. I didn?t want to do This I love in anyway shape or form and Robin and Caram insisted gaining Tommy?s and the others support. There?s been a lot of pressure to go with using my name (all external) but that never felt right to me for this band and the parameters in regard to this music have lots more to do with the mindset of Guns than something else. The instrumental I wrote for End of Days that?s more a solo effort at least presently.

As far as a new name?this is who I am not whatever else someone else thinks of. I don?t see myself as solely Guns but I do see myself as the only one from the past making the effort to take it forward whether anyone approves or not and giving beyond what many would or fight for to do so. The name helped the music more than you could ever know and I?m not talking in regards to studios or budgets I mean it as in being pushed by something and having to get the music to a place where I can find my peace regardless of what anyone says. And that wasn?t fully achieved until the last round of mastering and swapping out a version of a track at the pressing plant that had gotten inadvertently changed at the last minute.

Also the name was what the industry wanted as well and the burden of keeping it was something to endure in order to make the record. After the monies invested by old Geffen (that were decisions made that have worked out for me but I'm on record as having opposed) dropping the name became suicide.

The cost of legal battles has been astronomical but I felt the deal made with Universal was fair for where it is and most things balanced out for both sides.

David Bowie likes Floyd with Barret, many with Waters and those without. And there are those who like all the different lineups. Imo what makes our situation a bit more unique at least in how it?s played out is the ugliness of what really took place. If I?d done what was said then I?d say fuck me too. I also realize this is just one issue in something with upteen however many more so conclusions can?t be formulated off this little bit alone by most which is more than understandable.

That said because someone leaves the shop I started in which I still legally have the rights to the name I started it with? makes up a bunch of nonsense to win public and legal support in an effort to get whatever it is they want at mine and the public?s expense? I don?t feel any reason whatsoever I should have to throw what I?ve not only worked for but fought and suffered for away because some hurt, angry, betrayed, misguided and lied to people with a lynch mob mentality, joined by others who could care less (especially in the media), enjoying the controversy and hate, choose one over the other regardless of what?s right because they want what they want. And you can still prefer then as opposed to now and no one?s arguing your right to do so.

In regard to nuGuns, I get that sometimes it helps to be able to clarify. Personally I call this Guns and the Illusions or previous lineups old Guns.

We can play what we want as far as I?m aware.

It wasn?t so much that it was a good course or that if looking back I could do something differently it?s that for better or worse it was the only course and had I not done this Slash would have succeeded in destroying me publicly much more than he, others or myself have so far and I would have gone bankrupt.

I don?t know where I?d be but there?s clearly no happy ending there and with everything else that had gone on in every other area of my life the devastation isn?t something I feel I would have overcome at least to any real degree publicly. Hopefully I would?ve been able to pick myself up enough to get a job or sing somewhere else but I doubt anything that significant.

The sharing thing is interesting but even with all this time the complications of the red tape and trying to get something out fall on my world to sort and not theirs. They are amazingly supportive and do their best to keep me in up spirits and focused which I had less and less of in Guns way before Sweet Child caught on. If that were to change then that may be something to look at. I hope for us to grow more together as we continue so who knows.

If I hadn?t secured the rights I don?t know where I?d be and I?d probably call what would then be the current lineup ?Those mother fuckers!!? rofl-lol.gif

The name is something I take great pride in as I feel anyone who?s been a part of it should, the same as other bands or teams etc. The burden when it is such is a nightmare but not as much or as hopeless as I?d imagine without it could have been.

On the what?s the difference? I think I get what you?re asking? I feel it depends on how and in what ways either the formers members are using the association and what the true circumstances regarding why they moved on from both the band and the name that would or could affect the decision to continue on with the name by in this case this lineup and or myself.

 
 
? Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 07:08:29 PM by jarmo ?  Report to moderator
 

[EmilyGNR]

Great post skydog-! 

[sky dog]

what more can you say...straight up his point of view....it's all in the chats...he is wide open honest.

[EmilyGNR]

what more can you say...straight up his point of view....it's all in the chats...he is wide open honest.

I agree, and certain people tend to forget this was discussed in such depth.

It's great to reread this periodically, thanks for posting. 

[rebelhipi]

End Of Days instrumental? 

[sky dog]

as I thought, nobody wants to analyze and discuss what Axl actually says on the name issue....too funny.

[D-GenerationX]

as I thought, nobody wants to analyze and discuss what Axl actually says on the name issue....too funny. Please Mortis and D-Gen, tell us what the truth is from fantasyland because we know you know more than the actual people involved. 

And this might be a wicked burn if I was not long established as being 100% behind him keeping the name.  I argue in its favor all the time, in addition to constantly pointing out what fools the other two were for relinquishing it.  Axl was smart and they were dumb.

If you have beef with people that think he should not have retained the name, I am not that person.

So go bother them.

[sky dog]

meh, you have a point...modified my post.....

[D-GenerationX]

meh, you have a point...modified my post.....

No worries.

I agree with both the concept in general, and with most of the specific points Axl makes in that post.

[EmilyGNR]

I'm going to send this to a few people skydog, I think many could benefit from rereading this

[GNR4L]

Yeah, He came up with the name and its his.  Good business move so there was no way Slash & Duff could vote him out and take the name once Izzy left.

[raindogs70]

I don't think Slash felt Axl was going to carry GNR on without him and probably did try to block him from using the name when he put a new lineup together. To me it feels like talking about a divorce from a really long time ago and people move on with their lives. Some people can be friendly with their exes, some never can get over the hurt to be able to be in the same room with them. We have no idea what was said that was so malicious that they can't even speak to each other.

[LongGoneDay]

I don?t think many people are questioning why Axl kept the name.
In fact, I think most people in 2015 are so very far removed from the time when they gave a shit about what Axl and his latest incarnation of GN?R are up to.
There are people that weren?t alive back when Guns ruled the world that can now drink legally in the U.S.
There was a time when the world was waiting to see what Axl was going to do next, but by and large, those days are over.
It?s a testamant to how incredibly talented he is, and what a mark GN?R made back then that people cared for so long.

But back when everyone still cared, it wasn?t so much about why he kept the name. It was why he thought it was a good idea to keep the band going, and how he could possibly think it would work without the others. Regardless of how anyone here feels about Slash today, the reality is that back when Guns was the greatest band on the planet, it was Axl and Slash front and center. Both of them close to, if not equally recognizable. Sure every band has a shit ton of casual fans that just by the album and press play, but they also have plenty of fans that read the booklets, and know who contributed what to each song. So they know Izzy was instrumental in the band?s sound. They know Axl wasn?t playing the drums and bass.

Let?s water it down.

Say you start with a band of 5 members. These 5 members create an album that you buy, and love, and a fuck ton of other people do too.
Now say you replace 4 out of those 5 members, or 80% of the band with new members, then sprinkle a few additional members on top of them for good measure.
Then replace a few of those members who replaced the members that created that album you loved. Do this over the course of a couple decades.

Now granted this hypothetical scenario is done with the benefit of hindsight, but would you expect this band to continue making records that you enjoy?
Would you truly be surprised if some people were skeptical that they could? or felt that this situation sounds like the makings of a new band altogether?

It would be difficult to convince your casual fan that is was a rousing success.
Chinese Democracy became an industry joke for all the time and money that went into it.
Your casual fan probably felt that a new Guns N? Roses record should sound like a well oiled machine.
Instead it was all over the place, and sounds like the debut of a new band trying to find it?s way.

I don?t think any reasonable, objective person would have expected much different results knowing the specifics of the situation.
I did. I expected greatness, and I downplayed the alumni?s importance because my fandom got ahead of itself.

But most saw Axl?s attempt at keeping GN?R ?moving forward? as a futile gesture, and all these years later he?s done very little, if anything at all to change their minds.
If anything, the few that still care are even more confused.

So to answer your question, I?d say the name issue is not only not ready for bed, but is awake, coked out and ready to rock for all eternity.

[D-GenerationX]

Say you start with a band of 5 members. These 5 members create an album that you buy, and love, and a fuck ton of other people do too.
Now say you replace 4 out of those 5 members, or 80% of the band with new members, then sprinkle a few additional members on top of them for good measure.
Then replace a few of those members who replaced the members that created that album you loved. Do this over the course of a couple decades.

Now granted this hypothetical scenario is done with the benefit of hindsight, but would you expect this band to continue making records that you enjoy?
Would you truly be surprised if some people were skeptical that they could? or felt that this situation sounds like the makings of a new band altogether?

It would be difficult to convince your casual fan that is was a rousing success.
Chinese Democracy became an industry joke for all the time and money that went into it.
Your casual fan probably felt that a new Guns N? Roses record should sound like a well oiled machine.
Instead it was all over the place, and sounds like the debut of a new band trying to find it?s way.

I don?t think any reasonable, objective person would have expected much different results knowing the specifics of the situation.
I did. I expected greatness, and I downplayed the alumni?s importance because my fandom got ahead of itself.

I expected Axl to try.  That's where my disappointment lies.

Not in keeping the name.  Not it even replacing the whole damn band.  Those are hardly ideal, but I was ready to roll with it all.

What I was not ready to roll with, nor really thought would ever happen, would be an Axl too unsure or insecure to really try and make this work.  That's the part I will never get.  And I can't roll eyes back far enough in my head when I'm told how he is one "moving things forward".  You gotta be shitting me.

That old Sorum quote nails it.  He could have taken the ball and run with it, or dropped the ball.  Matt argues he dropped the ball.  I, however, argue he never even took the field.

I'm still all in.  Still hope there is another album.

But anyone that wants to tell me this has been one big 20 year clusterfuck, I can't credibly refute those claims.  The only ones willing to try and sell that rebuttal are GNR lifers who already think he does no wrong, and it would only be accepted by other GNR lifers that never think he does any wrong.  Everyone else would laugh you out of the room.

[LongGoneDay]

Say you start with a band of 5 members. These 5 members create an album that you buy, and love, and a fuck ton of other people do too.
Now say you replace 4 out of those 5 members, or 80% of the band with new members, then sprinkle a few additional members on top of them for good measure.
Then replace a few of those members who replaced the members that created that album you loved. Do this over the course of a couple decades.

Now granted this hypothetical scenario is done with the benefit of hindsight, but would you expect this band to continue making records that you enjoy?
Would you truly be surprised if some people were skeptical that they could? or felt that this situation sounds like the makings of a new band altogether?

It would be difficult to convince your casual fan that is was a rousing success.
Chinese Democracy became an industry joke for all the time and money that went into it.
Your casual fan probably felt that a new Guns N? Roses record should sound like a well oiled machine.
Instead it was all over the place, and sounds like the debut of a new band trying to find it?s way.

I don?t think any reasonable, objective person would have expected much different results knowing the specifics of the situation.
I did. I expected greatness, and I downplayed the alumni?s importance because my fandom got ahead of itself.

I expected Axl to try.  That's where my disappointment lies.

Not in keeping the name.  Not it even replacing the whole damn band.  Those are hardly ideal, but I was ready to roll with it all.

What I was not ready to roll with, nor really thought would ever happen, would be an Axl too unsure or insecure to really try and make this work.  That's the part I will never get.  And I can't roll eyes back far enough in my head when I'm told how he is one "moving things forward".  You gotta be shitting me.

That old Sorum quote nails it.  He could have taken the ball and run with it, or dropped the ball.  Matt argues he dropped the ball.  I, however, argue he never even took the field.

I'm still all in.  Still hope there is another album.

But anyone that wants to tell me this has been one big 20 year clusterfuck, I can't credibly refute those claims.  The only ones willing to try and sell that rebuttal are GNR lifers who already think he does no wrong, and it would only be accepted by other GNR lifers that never think he does any wrong.  Everyone else would laugh you out of the room.

I think even Axl would agree that it?s been a clusterfuck.
How anyone could argue otherwise is difficult for me to comprehend.
Calling it a clusterfuck is putting a bow on it if you ask me.

Most people saw it as a losing proposition out of the gate, way back in ?96, ?97, whatever, but I don?t think anyone actually foresaw it going as awry as it ended up.

The real kick in the dick is the lack of music from Axl.
There will always be some people that refuse to accept the idea of GN?R w/o Slash, Izzy etc but that would fade over time.

Curiosity would eventually get the best of them, and if the music sounded good, that?s all that matters in the end.

For instance, I think Layne Staley has one of the most unique and amazing voices I?ve ever heard.
Unfortunately a lot of bands came a long trying to mimic his sound, and we?ve had to endure a lot of shitty music as a result of those failed attempts.
He?s without a doubt irreplaceable.

Naturally I thought the idea of AIC continuing on without him was sacrilege, but I still bought, played and enjoyed the shit out of those records even though I really don?t consciously consider it to be AIC.

So while I don?t think the masses will ever truly understand/agree with Axl?s intentions of ?moving forward? as GN?R, I think it?s safe to say they would strongly prefer to hear Axl with whomever is in GN'R today over nothing at all.

[D-GenerationX]

That AIC example is a good one.  I was a huge AIC fan.  I consider them AIC in name only without Layne, but that doesn't mean there aren't still some good tunes in there.  Because they at least tried.

Axl was never going to eclipse, or even match, what the old band did.  Just was never going to happen.  All you can do is put your own stamp on things, your own vision, and put out work that supports that vision. 

15 original songs in 19 years time?  Coming up more than a bit small, by any objective standard.

[HBK]

 

In regard to nuGuns, I get that sometimes it helps to be able to clarify. Personally I call this Guns and the Illusions or previous lineups old Guns.

Touche/

 

[JAEBALL]

Of all the types of threads on Guns N Roses message boards... this is by far the worst one   

[COMAMOTIVE]

I think Corgan referred to the Pumpkins as a sort of traveling circus - a name that won't die and he won't let it... somewhat similar feeling here too

Not to get too defensive of Axl's position, but anyone who thinks that Slash and others wouldn't "get over" all of the bad blood in a second if Axl got them all together and announced he wanted to do an original 5 member Guns tour..is lost.
It's all about the name - it's all about the $

[LongGoneDay]

I think Corgan referred to the Pumpkins as a sort of traveling circus - a name that won't die and he won't let it... somewhat similar feeling here too

Not to get too defensive of Axl's position, but anyone who thinks that Slash and others wouldn't "get over" all of the bad blood in a second if Axl got them all together and announced he wanted to do an original 5 member Guns tour..is lost.
It's all about the name - it's all about the $

I agree to an extent, but we know for a fact that it isn?t all about the name and money to Slash and Duff because they walked away of their own volition.
Matt most likely would have too. Steven didn?t have a choice.

Axl clings to the name like a life preserver, yet seldom works within it, or outside of it.
At least from a creative standpoint.

Now if they were all on speaking terms again, and the option to do a tour was there, why not?
They can play songs they all clearly either enjoy, or are at least willing to play live, and get paid a fuck ton of money to do so.

Rejoining the band permanently?

I don?t think Slash even considers that, because his work ethic and ability to produce is in such stark contrast to that of Axl?s.
Probably even more so than he or any one else could have possibly imagined when he left almost 20 years ago.

Duff? Maybe. He stuck it out with Axl for a while after the others had left once before.
Not much has happened since though, so not sure he makes the same mistake twice. He?s a smart guy.

 Izzy? No chance.

Matt, without the others, highly doubt it.

Even Adler, who would probably give 2 arms for a chance at a reunion would probably give pause to joining without the others involvement.