In a perfect world, what would the ideal situation be?

[pilferk]

So, we're talking profane lyrical content, then.  Or a stripper in a cage, sidestage.

Wow.  Ballsy.

I trust you consider Andrew Dice Clay to be the baddest motherfucking comic to ever walk the Earth, then.

That's his persona.

I'd say his material is "dangerous" (and he was billed that way, too, in the 80's and 90's), in the sense that it's potentially offensive and, in his case, NC-17 rated stuff (at least his good stuff was/is).

Sam Kineson was also billed as "dangerous".  You were never in any danger of getting punched out (at least not during the show, in the audience).  But Sam was equal parts fucked up, dirty, and advesarial with the audience.

I'd say Axl keeps a fairly similar relationship with the audience.  There is a sense of tension there.

That does not exist with Bon Jovi.

[pilferk]

I'm a lifelong Bon Jovi fan, but will tell you straight up GNR has better lyrics.

Just way, way, way fewer songs.

Yeah, I'm 100% OK with that.

I know others aren't.

[D-GenerationX]

I'm a lifelong Bon Jovi fan, but will tell you straight up GNR has better lyrics.

Just way, way, way fewer songs.

Yeah, I'm 100% OK with that.

I know others aren't.

Hey, Bon Jovi ain't brain surgery.  Its arena/FM rock.

[Ginger King]

So, we're talking profane lyrical content, then.  Or a stripper in a cage, sidestage.

Wow.  Ballsy.

I trust you consider Andrew Dice Clay to be the baddest motherfucking comic to ever walk the Earth, then.

That's his persona.

I'd say his material is "dangerous" (and he was billed that way, too, in the 80's and 90's), in the sense that it's potentially offensive and, in his case, NC-17 rated stuff (at least his good stuff was/is).

Sam Kineson was also billed as "dangerous".  You were never in any danger of getting punched out (at least not during the show, in the audience).  But Sam was equal parts fucked up, dirty, and advesarial with the audience.

I'd say Axl keeps a fairly similar relationship with the audience.  There is a sense of tension there.

That does not exist with Bon Jovi.

For some reason, my father thought it wise to take his wife, 12 year old and 10 year old (me) sons to a Sam Kinison show way back when.  My mother was not impressed.  I however, still thank him, but it probably does explain my liberal use of profanity.

[pilferk]

They are very different bands and I would not like one to emulate the other, save a few exceptions.

I'd be ecstatic if Axl the artist or his "management" could meet a band like Bon Jovi even halfway there in terms of professionalism, work ethic, respect for their fans and just outright competency.

I'm not telling you I want them to copy the style of material.  But perhaps running their business like they had a fucking clue what they were doing wouldn't be the worst thing that ever happened to us as a fanbase.

Se la vie.  I see it all as part of the same package.  It doesn't mean I don't, occasionally, wish for "more", but...I recognize the reality that, if you change one bit, you probably have to change the bits you like, too.  This is where we are.

I think some of one comes with the other, to be honest.  I think, if you care about the business stuff "more", you have to care about the art "less".  I think (and you can think this unfair if you want) that's squarely Bon Jovi.  Image and branding are their big focus.  Yes, they write songs....but it's targeted, focused, particular kinds of songs.  At least what they release is.  Who knows what John puts together in his own time.....his stacks could be full of Death Metal and Opera, for all I know.  But that's what I mean: I think he specifically focuses on creating material that will reflect their brand and image, first, and whether it's artistically satisfying, or particularly creative, second.

I think if you care about the art "more", you care about the business stuff "less".  I think that's Axl, taken to the extreme.  I think he cares ONLY about the art, and it's integrity (in HIS perception).  The business stuff is a byproduct that he deals with, not something he considers, or WANTS to actively take part in.  It's ready when (if) it's ready.  Not before.  And when it's ready, it needs to be perfect in every way.  And if it's not.....well, that's when bad shit seems to happen (by hook or by crook).

We can bemoan that we don't like that process...I get it.  But...what's that line about a tiger and changing stripes?  The guy is who he is.  It's hard for me to like the creative process results (and I have, with almost no exception) and then scream about changing the guy who created it.  It's all the same guy.....

[pilferk]

Hey, Bon Jovi ain't brain surgery.  Its arena/FM rock.

To be clear, I meant I'm 100% OK with the fact GnR has way fewer songs.

Not that I wouldn't LIKE more...but if "more" means I have to sacrifice what I love about that material...I'd prefer less.

[pilferk]

For some reason, my father thought it wise to take his wife, 12 year old and 10 year old (me) sons to a Sam Kinison show way back when.  My mother was not impressed.  I however, still thank him, but it probably does explain my liberal use of profanity.

I loved Sam.  I have pictures of he and I together.  He was one of the nicest, most interesting, most FUCKED UP people that ever lived on this planet.  He went WAY too soon.

[D-GenerationX]

For some reason, my father thought it wise to take his wife, 12 year old and 10 year old (me) sons to a Sam Kinison show way back when.  My mother was not impressed.  I however, still thank him, but it probably does explain my liberal use of profanity.

Dice was a one trick pony, but Sam was hilarious.

His bit about how you knew Jesus couldn't be married is still one of my alltime favorite bits.

[pilferk]

Dice was a one trick pony, but Sam was hilarious.

His bit about how you knew Jesus couldn't be married is still one of my alltime favorite bits.

Agree.  Though "A Dice Man Cometh" is still one of the funniest comedy recordings ever.  There just...wasn't anything else.

Sam would go on stage with, maybe 15 to 20 min of material for a headline set.  He'd adlib the rest...and it was usually better than any of the material he had prepped. Freaking genius.

Though I expect the "off topic" post any second now.

[Ginger King]

They are very different bands and I would not like one to emulate the other, save a few exceptions.

I'd be ecstatic if Axl the artist or his "management" could meet a band like Bon Jovi even halfway there in terms of professionalism, work ethic, respect for their fans and just outright competency.

I'm not telling you I want them to copy the style of material.  But perhaps running their business like they had a fucking clue what they were doing wouldn't be the worst thing that ever happened to us as a fanbase.

Se la vie.  I see it all as part of the same package.  It doesn't mean I don't, occasionally, wish for "more", but...I recognize the reality that, if you change one bit, you probably have to change the bits you like, too.  This is where we are.

I think some of one comes with the other, to be honest.  I think, if you care about the business stuff "more", you have to care about the art "less".  I think (and you can think this unfair if you want) that's squarely Bon Jovi.  Image and branding are their big focus.  Yes, they write songs....but it's targeted, focused, particular kinds of songs.  At least what they release is.  Who knows what John puts together in his own time.....his stacks could be full of Death Metal and Opera, for all I know.  But that's what I mean: I think he specifically focuses on creating material that will reflect their brand and image, first, and whether it's artistically satisfying, or particularly creative, second.

I think if you care about the art "more", you care about the business stuff "less".  I think that's Axl, taken to the extreme.  I think he cares ONLY about the art, and it's integrity (in HIS perception).  The business stuff is a byproduct that he deals with, not something he considers, or WANTS to actively take part in.  It's ready when (if) it's ready.  Not before.  And when it's ready, it needs to be perfect in every way.  And if it's not.....well, that's when bad shit seems to happen (by hook or by crook).

We can bemoan that we don't like that process...I get it.  But...what's that line about a tiger and changing stripes?  The guy is who he is.  It's hard for me to like the creative process results (and I have, with almost no exception) and then scream about changing the guy who created it.  It's all the same guy.....

I thought Jarmo alluded to Axl being heavily involved in the business side of things, no?  I would guess that would be the case.  I think he is keenly aware, and thus selectively picks his spots (Kimmel interview, Budweiser commercial in SA, etc).  Also, arguably DJ is very focused on image and branding.  I don't think the two things (image and art) are mutually exclusive.  Bands can, and probably should, focus on both.

[Ginger King]

Dice was a one trick pony, but Sam was hilarious.

His bit about how you knew Jesus couldn't be married is still one of my alltime favorite bits.

Agree.  Though "A Dice Man Cometh" is still one of the funniest comedy recordings ever.  There just...wasn't anything else.

Sam would go on stage with, maybe 15 to 20 min of material for a headline set.  He'd adlib the rest...and it was usually better than any of the material he had prepped. Freaking genius.

Though I expect the "off topic" post any second now.

Agree 100%.  Sam's performances (and his interviews on Stern) are just classic and still hold up today.  Dice's x-rated nursery rhymes...not so much.

[pilferk]

I thought Jarmo alluded to Axl being heavily involved in the business side of things, no?  I would guess that would be the case.  I think he is keenly aware, and thus selectively picks his spots (Kimmel interview, Budweiser commercial in SA, etc).  Also, arguably DJ is very focused on image and branding.  I don't think the two things (image and art) are mutually exclusive.  Bands can, and probably should, focus on both.

I'm sure he is involved.  But I suspect it's out of necessity, rather than any burning real desire to do it.  And I don't think he's thinking about image and branding, or whether the label will love what he's writing, when in the artistic process.

I think he's keenly aware, again, out of necessity, and a desire to "protect" himself.

DJ is def image and branding focused...but.....to what extent that effects him creatively, I'm not sure.  I haven't really heard a LOT of what he's written, since he's come into the limelight. And we haven't really seen any effect bleed through to GnR, yet. Well, maybe on the merch front...

Should? Maybe.

Can? Sure, I guess, but I still think you have to balance...and it's tough to find EXACT equilibrium.  I think it also depends on who's in the band, and how you empower them.    

Jon (and maybe Ritchie, to a smaller extent) steer the Bon Jovi ship.
Axl, I think we all agree, steers the GnR ship.

Edit:
As an example of bands that do both: I think Pearl Jam and Metallica have both struck good balances, though I think some would argue that Metallica has slid, since The Black Album, a little more toward the business side, than the creative side.

[TheBaconman]

Here in Canada we have no problem leaving the house to watch live music.   I really don't know what the problem is in the United States is.   It can't always be football Sunday!

Canadians love love music.  From to pop, country and rock.  There is also something we can all agree on, Bon Jovi sucks!!!!  When I am driving around singing along to "I was born to be your baby".  I always have to make sure nobody is watching or listening.  Hahaha

[sky dog]

Now we know where D-Gen went sideways....everybody has a chink in their armor.....

Ginger, there is a shit ton of meat in Axl's songs to chew on....some is straight up...some not so much as a ton of his songs have multiple meanings, themes, etc...

[D-GenerationX]

Here in Canada we have no problem leaving the house to watch live music.   I really don't know what the problem is in the United States is.   It can't always be football Sunday!

Canadians love love music.  From to pop, country and rock.  There is also something we can all agree on, Bon Jovi sucks!!!!  When I am driving around singing along to "I was born to be your baby".  I always have to make sure nobody is watching or listening.  Hahaha

Between your "USA is Not OK" routine, and mortis's hate of all things Las Vegas, you guys should have a travel column.

[TheBaconman]

Here in Canada we have no problem leaving the house to watch live music.   I really don't know what the problem is in the United States is.   It can't always be football Sunday!

Canadians love love music.  From to pop, country and rock.  There is also something we can all agree on, Bon Jovi sucks!!!!  When I am driving around singing along to "I was born to be your baby".  I always have to make sure nobody is watching or listening.  Hahaha

Between your "USA is Not OK" routine, and mortis's hate of all things Las Vegas, you guys should have a travel column.

Hahaha when did I ever said the USA was not ok?  I am sure you go lt that from reading my overly supportive posts on the topic of Las Vegas
I do not think the support the USA show live music or supporting recorded sales is "ok" however.  In fact I think it sucks

I do sort of agree however, with the topic being beat to death

But you of all people are calling out people for having routine???   You........    Really......   

[D-GenerationX]

Hahaha when did I ever said the USA was not ok? 
   

Say what??

You say it all the time!  Is this a wind up?

Every time touring comes up, you go on about how rock is dead in the U.S. and we could take some pointers from our little brothers up north.   

[TheBaconman]

Hahaha when did I ever said the USA was not ok? 
   

Say what??

You say it all the time!  Is this a wind up?

Every time touring comes up, you go on about how rock is dead in the U.S. and we could take some pointers from our little brothers up north.   

Oh I understand now...

You have read my posts about how rock music is dead in the US and how certain major cities dont support live music enough abd just assumed the I dont like the US.... 

Didnt actually thnk someone could make that distiction, but I will clarity for you.

I have traceld to the USA many many time and have visited some of my all time fav places there...  I have met some great people and enjoyed a lot of great experiences there... 

Again you might not of known that, or read my posts and praise for Las Vegas (which is in the USA)....

I questioned you because you used a quote "USA is not ok"....   Implying that I have once said this...    I havnt... 

You are using the closed minded mentalty that you give people grief for on this board.   I have read many times people imply that you are not a fan of Guns of Roses becuase you are not a fan of some very specific things (set list, lack of new material),  But you are a fan??  Arnt you?

I may not like all things USA, but that does not mean I think "USA is not OK"...

[EmilyGNR]

Hahaha when did I ever said the USA was not ok? 
   

Say what??

You say it all the time!  Is this a wind up?

Every time touring comes up, you go on about how rock is dead in the U.S. and we could take some pointers from our little brothers up north.   

Oh I understand now...

You have read my posts about how rock music is dead in the US and how certain major cities dont support live music enough abd just assumed the I dont like the US.... 

Didnt actually thnk someone could make that distiction, but I will clarity for you.

I have traceld to the USA many many time and have visited some of my all time fav places there...  I have met some great people and enjoyed a lot of great experiences there... 

Again you might not of known that, or read my posts and praise for Las Vegas (which is in the USA)....

I questioned you because you used a quote "USA is not ok"....   Implying that I have once said this...    I havnt... 

You are using the closed minded mentalty that you give people grief for on this board.   I have read many times people imply that you are not a fan of Guns of Roses becuase you are not a fan of some very specific things (set list, lack of new material),  But you are a fan??  Arnt you?

I may not like all things USA, but that does not mean I think "USA is not OK"...

Baconman, if you ever get a chance to attend a show in SA, do it. Totally different atmosphere 

[TheBaconman]

Hahaha when did I ever said the USA was not ok? 
   

Say what??

You say it all the time!  Is this a wind up?

Every time touring comes up, you go on about how rock is dead in the U.S. and we could take some pointers from our little brothers up north.   

Oh I understand now...

You have read my posts about how rock music is dead in the US and how certain major cities dont support live music enough abd just assumed the I dont like the US.... 

Didnt actually thnk someone could make that distiction, but I will clarity for you.

I have traceld to the USA many many time and have visited some of my all time fav places there...  I have met some great people and enjoyed a lot of great experiences there... 

Again you might not of known that, or read my posts and praise for Las Vegas (which is in the USA)....

I questioned you because you used a quote "USA is not ok"....   Implying that I have once said this...    I havnt... 

You are using the closed minded mentalty that you give people grief for on this board.   I have read many times people imply that you are not a fan of Guns of Roses becuase you are not a fan of some very specific things (set list, lack of new material),  But you are a fan??  Arnt you?

I may not like all things USA, but that does not mean I think "USA is not OK"...

Baconman, if you ever get a chance to attend a show in SA, do it. Totally different atmosphere 

I am trying to plan a trip to Brazil next year for the Olympics.   If all the stars line up and it works out that I can go I would love to check out some live music while down there