Slash says "never say never" over return to classic-era GN'R lineup

[D-GenerationX]

I will actually try and apply the same argument to Guns, using The Spaghetti Incident example. Now I am not saying that album is complete garbage - well, yes I am haha - but can Guns fans be so biased as to declaim it in absolute positive glowing terms. At best, it is flawed work. I have never heard many accolades by GN'R fans of TSI but I suspect HTGTH is going to prove me wrong here!

I think there are a few definite standout tracks.  'Ain't It Fun', 'Down On The Farm'.  'Since I Don't Have You' is one of my favorite Axl vocals.

But, end of the day, its a goof around cover album.  I don't really think you can hold it to the same standard.

[faldor]

I never claimed, nor did I set out to be "objective"!
I run a fucking fan site. I'm sure there's a fucking clue in there somewhere.

Calling me biased isn't gonna insult me. I honestly don't care!
It's GN'R, my favorite band.

Never claimed to be. And I would never go to a fan site to look for objectivity.
Like I've said, you're in the wrong fucking place. 

Suspected as much.

You go to a fan site for objectivity! That's hilarious!
And, you think of yourself as objective. Even better.

I do not agree with you on the slightest. Yes, there is more than an element of subjectivity if you are aficionado of a particular thing, but that should not necessitate losing you objective faculties. If your sports team are pummeled by opposition you do not say to yourself, ''yes, we were great . Let's all be positive and live in a positive bubble''.  You say, ''we were garbage, our players were crap, our manager's tactics errant and the opposition, far superior.'' You might also end on a positive, with ''we have time to put our tactics in order for the next match. Hopefully we will do better'', but at no point has your objective reasoning completely deserted you. Applying this to rock bands and using the Stones example, yes, you might consider The Stones ''the greatest rock n' roll band ever'' (there is your subjective element, Jarmo) but this does not blind you to the fact that Dirty Work is complete and utter horse manure (the objective element).

There is an eternal barometer of objectivity, even within fandom itself. Trekkies have their favourite episodes, and their not so favourite. Fans of movie serials will point you in the direction of the good (Godfather I & II), and the not so good (Godfather III). Fans of comic books will tell you their favourite 'run', when a particular creative team was working on the comic. And fans of sports teams will select the best eras, managers and players, and the not so great. At no point has fandom turned them into, how you operate, what you advocate, which is a sort of 'na na prozac land' of unreality and blindness.

I will actually try and apply the same argument to Guns, using The Spaghetti Incident example. Now I am not saying that album is complete garbage - well, yes I am haha - but can Guns fans be so biased as to declaim it in absolute positive glowing terms. At best, it is flawed work. I have never heard many accolades by GN'R fans of TSI but I suspect HTGTH is going to prove me wrong here!

Why do you bother coming HERE to discuss the band you have such problems with? You know very well how Jarmo runs this site. There are plenty of other GNR forums you can go to and trash the band openly with little to no pushback. Why not go there? What's your motive? Are you trying to show Jarmo the light? Rally some troops to join your cause? It seems to me that you just like coming here to argue, because that's all you've been doing for as long as I can remember. It just puzzles me that certain people have such a problem with the way Jarmo runs things, yet they come here every day to argue with him. Makes very little sense to me.

[jarmo]

I do not agree with you on the slightest. Yes, there is more than an element of subjectivity if you are aficionado of a particular thing, but that should not necessitate losing you objective faculties.

I didn't lose anything, I gained things.

Regarding the rest of your post, it's the usual: "Look at me, I've got things here that I don't like about G'N'R! Aren't I objective? Hello?"....

Nobody goes to a fan site for objectivity or to find out what's bad about the band they like. Except, you.

In short, see the post above this.


/jarmo

[mortismurphy]

I do not agree with you on the slightest. Yes, there is more than an element of subjectivity if you are aficionado of a particular thing, but that should not necessitate losing you objective faculties.

I didn't lose anything, I gained things.

Regarding the rest of your post, it's the usual: "Look at me, I've got things here that I don't like about G'N'R! Aren't I objective? Hello?"....

Nobody goes to a fan site for objectivity or to find out what's bad about the band they like. Except, you.

In short, see the post above this.


/jarmo

Well there you are. That is the answer you get, just a reiteration of the exact same thing as earlier without any engagement with my reply. I think your earlier reply with multiple 'fucks' had more insight and depth. I even in the spirit of compromise purposely used an old gnr example (TSI) to avoid accusations of anti-new band bias, (I could have used multiple new gnr mishaps such as the VMAs or Rio 4 - or Scraped, a song many do not care for) but, to no avail. I guess the policy here is, everyone should universally love every single thing Axl Rose ever does, unanimously, uncompromisingly, no questions asked. I am a fan of many bands (not just gnr), films and two-three sports teams but I would be revolted if that was the general expectation of what a 'fan' should be. I actually would not be a fan of anything, if those were the central requirements!

[jarmo]

So I don't listen to "TSI?" as much as the other albums. So what? I'm not gonna go on day after day about how I don't really listen to the whole album all that much.

People have their own tastes, no big deal.
For you, it's mostly about what you don't like. You need to point it out time and time again.
Why don't you try focusing on what you like instead? Or maybe, it's very difficult for somebody who is inclined to focus on the negatives.


You've had plenty of opportunities over the months to show everybody here how big of a fan you are. Yet you've failed. You rarely take the opportunity to say anything even remotely nice about GN'R, instead you spend your time whining. Whine, whine, whine.

You're boring.



/jarmo

[Spirit]

I never claimed, nor did I set out to be "objective"!
I run a fucking fan site. I'm sure there's a fucking clue in there somewhere.

Calling me biased isn't gonna insult me. I honestly don't care!
It's GN'R, my favorite band.

Never claimed to be. And I would never go to a fan site to look for objectivity.
Like I've said, you're in the wrong fucking place. 

Suspected as much.

You go to a fan site for objectivity! That's hilarious!
And, you think of yourself as objective. Even better.

I do not agree with you on the slightest. Yes, there is more than an element of subjectivity if you are aficionado of a particular thing, but that should not necessitate losing you objective faculties. If your sports team are pummeled by opposition you do not say to yourself, ''yes, we were great . Let's all be positive and live in a positive bubble''.  You say, ''we were garbage, our players were crap, our manager's tactics errant and the opposition, far superior.'' You might also end on a positive, with ''we have time to put our tactics in order for the next match. Hopefully we will do better'', but at no point has your objective reasoning completely deserted you. Applying this to rock bands and using the Stones example, yes, you might consider The Stones ''the greatest rock n' roll band ever'' (there is your subjective element, Jarmo) but this does not blind you to the fact that Dirty Work is complete and utter horse manure (the objective element).

There is an eternal barometer of objectivity, even within fandom itself. Trekkies have their favourite episodes, and their not so favourite. Fans of movie serials will point you in the direction of the good (Godfather I & II), and the not so good (Godfather III). Fans of comic books will tell you their favourite 'run', when a particular creative team was working on the comic. And fans of sports teams will select the best eras, managers and players, and the not so great. At no point has fandom turned them into, how you operate, what you advocate, which is a sort of 'na na prozac land' of unreality and blindness.

I will actually try and apply the same argument to Guns, using The Spaghetti Incident example. Now I am not saying that album is complete garbage - well, yes I am haha - but can Guns fans be so biased as to declaim it in absolute positive glowing terms. At best, it is flawed work. I have never heard many accolades by GN'R fans of TSI but I suspect HTGTH is going to prove me wrong here!

Why do you bother coming HERE to discuss the band you have such problems with? You know very well how Jarmo runs this site. There are plenty of other GNR forums you can go to and trash the band openly with little to no pushback. Why not go there? What's your motive? Are you trying to show Jarmo the light? Rally some troops to join your cause? It seems to me that you just like coming here to argue, because that's all you've been doing for as long as I can remember. It just puzzles me that certain people have such a problem with the way Jarmo runs things, yet they come here every day to argue with him. Makes very little sense to me.

I think it comes down to a crave for attention. If you come here with that sort of mindset you are guaranteed to be highly visible at a site like this.

If people really take notice, Jarmo doesn't deny people posting about Slash, the old band, how the band is run, Velvet Revolver or the likes. Yet, that's the myth being portrayed on other forums ? to the extent that it's taken as truth. Also, the notion that people here hates the old band... another myth. So, when people come here and quickly find out that's not the case at all, what remains is to start attacking the way the site is run and the opinions of the owner himself. Yes, the site is a bit stricter when it comes to categorizing discussion topics, but other than that you can discuss whatever you want pretty much.

I did take a look at the list of banned members, at it's not very long compared to a lot of other boards throughout the years. Yet, the "truth" being repeated to death elsewhere is that Jarmo bans you as soon as you mention Slash and that he has banned people in the thousands it seems... oh, well.

I have seen posters on other boards (not including mortismurphy here) bragging about "sticking it" to Jarmo on this board, and then getting their much needed pat on the back from their fellow trolls. It's a case of a strong need of belonging ? belonging with the cool kids. Quite transparent if you ask me.

[D-GenerationX]

If Jarmo was really how he's been portrayed on other the boards, guys like mortis and I would have been gone a year ago.

Some of the gripes are quite legit, don't get me wrong.  But the one that he runs this place with an iron fist ain't one of 'em.

[Sickthings3]

Spirit, you bring up some very good points.

It's like it's not enough these days to be like "Eh, I don't like this or that" and move on with your life. They feel the need to go out there, yell their opinion from the highest mountain, and be pissed if people don't agree, with the old, tired "It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it".

Well, the funny thing about that is yes, people are entitled to your opinion, but so is everyone else so it doesn't make them that damn special. And if people don't like your opinion, cool, get the fuck over it.

I, for one, like the songs off TSI that DX mentioned. I also like Scraped. I also enjoy the VMA performance and have it on my ipod. Yeah, Jungle and Paradise aren't the best versions, but he sings the fuck out of Madagascar. Am I supposed to not enjoy those songs or listen to them in secret and be ashamed because MortisMurphy doesn't like them? Who the fuck is that guy? Cool, you don't like them. Bravo. Points to you for not being a follower, for being different. I'm so impressed and enthralled that you can "Stick it" to Jarmo. You sir, are a true Badass!

But at the end of the day, there are plenty of things and people I don't like. All these remakes. I am not a big fan of them. But there isn't a point going to a fan site to tell the people who are excited for them that I don't like it. If they are, cool. Good for them. I hope they enjoy it. Me, I'll spend my money and time elsewhere. Not that big of a deal.

The End.

[D-GenerationX]

I also enjoy the VMA performance and have it on my ipod. Yeah, Jungle and Paradise aren't the best versions, but he sings the fuck out of Madagascar. Am I supposed to not enjoy those songs or listen to them in secret and be ashamed because MortisMurphy doesn't like them?

Of course not.

But that bit in bold is further than many around here would ever go.  And its not exactly like that is a scathing criticism.

I can't speak for mortis, but that sort of thing is all I'm ever looking for.  Not everything is awesome.  And if something didn't get it done, just say so.  You aren't renouncing your fandom or being some disloyal bastard.  You are just being honest.

And the flipside of that is that if you can't seem to ever bring yourself to even utter the mild criticism you just did there, for example, you give the impression you are an apologist.  Its just how things look.

Folks, the response to "Axl didn't sound so hot there" is, at least occasionally, "no, he really doesn't".  At least sometimes.

Is that so hard?

[Spirit]

And the flipside of that is that if you can't seem to ever bring yourself to even utter the mild criticism you just did there, for example, you give the impression you are an apologist.  Its just how things look.

Folks, the response to "Axl didn't sound so hot there" is, at least occasionally, "no, he really doesn't".  At least sometimes.

Is that so hard?

But I don't understand the hang-up with the people who won't agree that "Axl didn't sound so hot here". Then it's a big discussion about why that person won't agree with that. Not an acceptance that it's their opinion and then move on. It's okay to ask "why don't you agree with that", but it gets silly when it's blown up and becomes all about that persons view on the world and how you think that's ridiculous. Then, all of the sudden the discussion is about the person and not the original topic. Pretty goddamn boring to read for the posters not involved in the dispute. This goes both ways by the way...

When you start with "Folks, ...", is that to give an impression that this is the mindset of every poster here? Because it really isn't, I think you'll find people all over the spectrum here.

[D-GenerationX]

But I don't understand the hang-up with the people who won't agree that "Axl didn't sound so hot here". Then it's a big discussion about why that person won't agree with that. Not an acceptance that it's their opinion and then move on. It's okay to ask "why don't you agree with that", but it gets silly when it's blown up and becomes all about that persons view on the world and how you think that's ridiculous. Then, all of the sudden the discussion is about the person and not the original topic. Pretty goddamn boring to read for the posters not involved in the dispute. This goes both ways by the way...

Yes, I am well versed in the phenomenon of the bit in bold.  And overall, I agree with your points.

And my use of "folks" was just a catch all because it was not directed at any one person or even group of people.

[mortismurphy]

So I don't listen to "TSI?" as much as the other albums. So what? I'm not gonna go on day after day about how I don't really listen to the whole album all that much.

In actual fact it would be interesting, hearing your opinions on TSI if you were willing to allude to those reasons you do not listen to it that much. For the first time you and I might be able to find some common ground, since I to rarely listen to it. Mostly though I would like to hear it because it could theoretical be an adult 'discussion', which is a thing largely absent on this forum. There is nothing else happening in the gnr world. Go for it. Slaughter the LP with the silly spaghetti cover.

People have their own tastes, no big deal.

I agree. I have always been interested in talking about different tastes but it is not easy when you are debating with people who have elevated their designated ''favourite band'' (really, Axl) to Mt Olympus. How many times must you repeat that ''favourite band'' statement by the way? It is repeated with all the subtlety of a ''party line'' possessed by some sinister 20th century dictatorship. It keeps reminding me of ''four legs good, two legs bad'' from Animal Farm.

For you, it's mostly about what you don't like. You need to point it out time and time again.
Why don't you try focusing on what you like instead? Or maybe, it's very difficult for somebody who is inclined to focus on the negatives.

See, my Mick Taylor discussion.

You've had plenty of opportunities over the months to show everybody here how big of a fan you are. Yet you've failed. You rarely take the opportunity to say anything even remotely nice about GN'R, instead you spend your time whining. Whine, whine, whine.

What an odd thing to say! I did not realise I was under some sort of trial period, to demonstrate an opportunity of ''how big a fan'' I am!! What an odd expectation to have. It is actually, creepy.

You're boring.

Thanks.

[Ginger King]

Is people posting to ?get attention? or gain street cred at other sites really a thing?  I find that really odd if true.  Plus, since we?re all here anonymously (Jarmo excluded), how does one garner attention to themselves by posting anonymously?

Could it be that we?re here because we want to discuss GnR ? the good, the bad, and the ugly?  I get that this is a fan site and people shouldn?t dwell on the negatives?but that doesn?t mean we should pretend they don?t exist. 

[Spirit]

Is people posting to ?get attention? or gain street cred at other sites really a thing?  I find that really odd if true.

It's a thing. Not saying there are many people in the community who do this, but I've seen it several times. Maybe not so often as a regular thing, but I've seen especially newly registered users who start off their posting history by sharing their "war story" from this site, trying to get acceptance right off the bat.

Plus, since we?re all here anonymously (Jarmo excluded), how does one garner attention to themselves by posting anonymously?

It's not so much about creating a name for yourself in real life, but there's definitely quite a lot of people who seek some sort of confirmation from like minded, and then they feed off each other.

[faldor]

I also enjoy the VMA performance and have it on my ipod. Yeah, Jungle and Paradise aren't the best versions, but he sings the fuck out of Madagascar. Am I supposed to not enjoy those songs or listen to them in secret and be ashamed because MortisMurphy doesn't like them?

Of course not.

But that bit in bold is further than many around here would ever go.  And its not exactly like that is a scathing criticism.

I can't speak for mortis, but that sort of thing is all I'm ever looking for.  Not everything is awesome.  And if something didn't get it done, just say so.  You aren't renouncing your fandom or being some disloyal bastard.  You are just being honest.

And the flipside of that is that if you can't seem to ever bring yourself to even utter the mild criticism you just did there, for example, you give the impression you are an apologist.  Its just how things look.

Folks, the response to "Axl didn't sound so hot there" is, at least occasionally, "no, he really doesn't".  At least sometimes.

Is that so hard?

I don't really see people claiming "everything is awesome" though, more of "it is what it is". I think the vast majority of us would have liked certain things to have gone differently over the last 20 years or so with this band. Some fans have gotten frustrated to the point where they've comlpletely given up. Some still hope for changes, and others accept whatever they're given. I'm not sure there's anything wrong with any one of those stances. It only becomes a problem when one person thinks their POV is the only right one and feels the need to tell everyone so, ad nauseam.

There's a time and a place for everything, including band related discussions. Back when the leaks came out, it was understood that discussion wasn't allowed here. So I found another forum to talk about them. I didn't criticize the way this site is run and argue back and forth with Jarmo. That's what I don't get. This isn't the only GNR forum. There are plenty of others where you can bash away all you'd like. That's all. I've lurked around this forum for over a decade and I've seen a lot of people get upset with the way Jarmo runs things. They come and go. They fight with him to the point they get banned and then they go elsewhere and brag about how they "put him in his place". I never understood the point of that and I guess I never will. It's a never ending cycle.

[D-GenerationX]

Is people posting to ?get attention? or gain street cred at other sites really a thing?  I find that really odd if true.  Plus, since we?re all here anonymously (Jarmo excluded), how does one garner attention to themselves by posting anonymously?

Could it be that we?re here because we want to discuss GnR ? the good, the bad, and the ugly?  I get that this is a fan site and people shouldn?t dwell on the negatives?but that doesn?t mean we should pretend they don?t exist. 

Oh, it happens.  I've moderated other boards for other topics.  Its absolutely a thing.

I don't see it here, however.  Here its just a bomb to throw at someone you don't like hearing what they have to say.

Your general "look at me" troll rarely has anything to add.  Just there to pick fights and make personal attacks.  People that are accused of being such types around here don't fit that boilerplate at all.  They often have very detailed and very reasoned reasons they say what they are saying about the band.  Its all very on topic and not just a bunch of shit smearing on the walls.

But it rocks the boat, so they are just "here for attention" or "should really think about moving on". 

As I've tried to convey more than once to the people that don't go to other boards, posting here is not viewed as some badge of honor.  Most times, people think those of us that come here are out of our minds.  Either for playing by Jarmo's rules, or even simply for talking about the band like its still a real thing.

But believe me when I tell anyone that doubts it, no one is amassing any cool points amongst GNR online fandom posting here, regardless of what you say while you are here.  To the vast majority of the GNR online population, we are fucked in the head for even logging in.

[D-GenerationX]

There's a time and a place for everything, including band related discussions. Back when the leaks came out, it was understood that discussion wasn't allowed here. So I found another forum to talk about them. I didn't criticize the way this site is run and argue back and forth with Jarmo. That's what I don't get. This isn't the only GNR forum. There are plenty of others where you can bash away all you'd like.

But that is not why anyone comes here. 

I'm amazed that remains unclear to some.  No one willing to come here and play by these site's rules is not still interested in the band's present and future.

I am hardly here because I feel super welcome.  But if you want to have any sort of serious discussion about the band, its got to be here.

Here, we can have very long threads about a new album or some recent interview.  At the other boards, no one is interested.  You may get a few, but you will get FAR more responses in the "dude, this band is a joke", "Axl is fat" or "call me when Axl reunites the REAL band" vein.

[faldor]

There's a time and a place for everything, including band related discussions. Back when the leaks came out, it was understood that discussion wasn't allowed here. So I found another forum to talk about them. I didn't criticize the way this site is run and argue back and forth with Jarmo. That's what I don't get. This isn't the only GNR forum. There are plenty of others where you can bash away all you'd like.

But that is not why anyone comes here. 

I'm amazed that remains unclear to some.  No one willing to come here and play by these site's rules is not still interested in the band's present and future.

I am hardly here because I feel super welcome.  But if you want to have any sort of serious discussion about the band, its got to be here.

Here, we can have very long threads about a new album or some recent interview.  At the other boards, no one is interested.  You may get a few, but you will get FAR more responses in the "dude, this band is a joke", "Axl is fat" or "call me when Axl reunites the REAL band" vein.

Well if you like it here so much, why are you constantly going back and forth with the same people? Not everyone shares the same opinions. The confrontation that may arise every once in awhile. I get that. People feel strongly about certain things and feel the need to passionately respond. I've been doing so as a Patriots fan the last few months, especially the last few weeks. But when it's pretty much an every day occurrence. I don't see the point in that. Maybe I'm alone there.

[jarmo]

In actual fact it would be interesting, hearing your opinions on TSI if you were willing to allude to those reasons you do not listen to it that much. For the first time you and I might be able to find some common ground, since I to rarely listen to it. Mostly though I would like to hear it because it could theoretical be an adult 'discussion', which is a thing largely absent on this forum. There is nothing else happening in the gnr world. Go for it. Slaughter the LP with the silly spaghetti cover.

It's a fun cover album. I don't have the same "attachment" to it as other GN'R albums. I guess that's why.

See, my Mick Taylor discussion.

Mick Taylor doesn't really interest me in the GN'R section. Sorry.

What an odd thing to say! I did not realise I was under some sort of trial period, to demonstrate an opportunity of ''how big a fan'' I am!! What an odd expectation to have. It is actually, creepy.

Boofuckinghoo. It's neither creepy or odd.
You've chosen to come to a fan site and you can't say anything nice about the band.



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Well if you like it here so much, why are you constantly going back and forth with the same people? Not everyone shares the same opinions. The confrontation that may arise every once in awhile. I get that. People feel strongly about certain things and feel the need to passionately respond. I've been doing so as a Patriots fan the last few months, especially the last few weeks. But when it's pretty much an every day occurrence. I don't see the point in that. Maybe I'm alone there.

Hahaha.  Yeah, rough few weeks for the Pats fans.

As for the back and forth, let me ask you a question.  There are only 2 people here I butt heads with, Emily and Jarmo.  Emily seems to hate everyone, so I don't really take that one personally.  

But who are the only people Jarmo seeks out?  Look at his posts.  Me, mortis, Ginger King, etc.  There are any number of "real fans" around here he doesn't even look at.  But he couldn't ignore any of we "whiners" on a bet.

And what are we supposed to do at that point?  Ignore him?  Because I tried that a few times.  He still follows me around and asks why I'm ignoring him.  I have tried to make the argument that the board is probably better off if he and I sort of kept away from each other.  He ain't having it.

What am I supposed to do?

I can be posting here for two hours talking to all sort of folks.  Never a problem.  The minute Jarmo gets here, things go to hell for me.  You can bet dollars to donuts that if he is the last post after not being here for a few hours, it will be him quoting some post of mine, or mortis, or some other perceived dissident.  And it ain't to tell us we're awesome.  It's to pick a fight.  Even if what he quoted was 45 minutes ago, and the conversation had been going on without incident the whole time.

What should I be doing differently?