One Man's Plan To Reunite Guns N' Roses (Mini-Doc)

[JAEBALL]

Come on guys...

We all don't agree about certain stuff.. but its the same thing in every thread... Mortis you don't like GNR at all anymore... at least DX does

Lets keep the bashing to the people who deserve it and the topic at hand... like evil unloyal Deli owners.

[mortismurphy]

You're the one going on about how great they are! Neil Young and them.

So you pretty much admitted that you're not really a fan of anything. Yet you come to this band's fan site...

I am a 'fan' of a lot of music, from Shostakovich to Motown, from Sinatra to Metallica.

[jarmo]

As I said, I like a lot of music too but I don't go on those artists fan sites only to complain about what they're not doing.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

#1: It would be from Guns N' Roses
#2: It would feature unreleased material sung by Axl Rose from a period of "mystery".

I don't think the "mystery" angle has near the hook you seem to think it does.

The general public considers what Axl has done the past 20 years a gross misadventure.  And even among GNR fans, there is hardly consensus that these supposed outtakes are in demand.  We still have people to this day that think Buckethead was a joke and still can't accept he was in the band.

So you are down to the segment of the segment of the fanbase at this point.  I understand and agree with your point that box sets are geared towards the diehards.  But plainly put, there aren't near enough of them left to justify the expense of producing and marketing this sort of thing.  At least, not right now.

You also got those bootlegs for free. Doesn't really say anything other than you like free stuff!

Would you buy it?

It doesn't say that at all.  I was never given the option to buy officially released bootlegs.

I have with other bands.  Other bands have made such things available officially, and I bought a good number of them.  This band has never given me that option.  There are not official bootlegs out there that I am not buying, but rather stealing instead.  Doesn't exist.

The only thing this band has given me on that front was a comically doctored live compilation album.  And I bought it the day it came out.  I don't listen to it, because its an incredibly flawed product and a very poor representation of the band as a live act in their prime.  But I have it, bought officially.

The whole about the bootlegs I have was not to establish "I like free stuff".  It was to establish that I am a very poor example of the average consumer when it comes to this band.  So if you want to talk about a null and void argument, here it is.  I am in the .0001% when it comes to this band.  The fact I would buy it is not really relevant when it comes to whether this would be a viable commercial release.  Its like arguing a sequel to a movie should be greenlit, because you know a diehard fan that would go see it 6 times.  That diehard fan is not representative of the general populance, or even the fandom of that particular movie franchise.

[D-GenerationX]

As I said, I like a lot of music too but I don't go on those artists fan sites only to complain about what they're not doing.

But you seek out and pretty much only talk to such people.  You couldn't ignore him on a bet.

Do you honestly think the board overall is better served by you seeking him out in every thread and picking an inevitable fight with him?  Like JAEBALL just said, its always the same song and dance. 

Why do you invite it, if it allegedly bothers you so much?

[mortismurphy]

As I said, I like a lot of music too but I don't go on those artists fan sites only to complain about what they're not doing.




/jarmo

We have had this argument about a million times now. I repeat, you see 'whining' whereas I see objective reactions to the current situation with the band as it is now.

[mortismurphy]

You are over analysing (as usual) a rather flippant remark by me. Jarmo pointed out that the place has been peaceful in my absence. I merely replied that it has been 'completely dead' and that Jarmo's own post count declines when there is ever an absence of 'whiners'. Yes, I do take post traffic as some sort of indication of, a successful forum, but your straw man remarks about Jarmo's ownership are unnecessary and rather, stating the obvious.

I'm not over analysing, anything (though I know how much you hate it when people actually look at your words substantively because of how poorly they often hold up under scrutiny).  YOU engaged ME when I commented (in less than 50 words)  that I find such remarks, fippant or not, funny.  To me, they are.  The fact YOU find the fact I see them as funny as being worthy of extended argument, or objection, speaks more of you, and to your posts and posting, than anything I've done in this conversation. Talk about overanalyzing an off handed comment...here's my original post that lit this off:

I always find it very interesting when people who really disagree with the site's general tone and editorial policy then worry about site traffic, and use it as justification of their own ramblings.

It's so logically and intellectually bent, it makes me giggle.

Man, I must have really hit a nerve! Talk about someone who takes themselves too seriously....gods forbid someone find humor at your expense.

Your "flippant remark" gets pointed out, a lot, by various posters in the same types of conversations...and most of those posters feel the same way about the site.  And I chuckle every time.  Because those comments are disingenious and intellectually bent at their core. The fact you took issue with my giggles, again, speaks more about YOU than it does about me.

You commented on post traffic/activity levels.  As a justification for why you should continue to post (or as a counterpoint to jarmo saying it was nice while you were "away", which amounts to the same thing).  Wiggle away to try to get off the hook, but you did. If you want to be intellectually bent (more than you have been in this tangent), and deny that. or try to tell everyone you meant something differrent...go for it.  Nobody will buy what you're selling, though. It's obvious and clear what you meant. "If I'm not here, nobody posts, so you/this place is better off with me posting".

That's intellecutally bent, and I find it quite funny.

To sum up:

1) Whether you use traffic as a metric for success is irrelevant.  You're not paying to keep the lights on.

2) You have said, time and again, that you disagree with pretty much every administrative "thing" the site represents/does. So you generally don't like the way the place is run.

3) Since you have zero vested interest in the construct continuing, it's intellectually bent to cite the place being "dead" as justification as to why you should post.  Because whether there is traffic or not has ZERO effect on you. Nothing. Because of both 1 and 2, above. In fact, one would think, if the lights go off due to low traffic (it won't) that would, in fact, prove you point.

It's a very simple logical path to walk down.  It's not a straw man (I'm not sure you really know what that term means, in terms of the logical fallacy terminology). I'm not setting up an argument, ascribing it to you, so I can knock it down.  I'm observing performed behavior and chuckling at the humor it generates.

It's incredibly funny to watch you, and others, do the same thing over and over. It's amusing. I giggle.

Why you think you need to question WHY I find it funny, and get a long, drawn out, explanation as to why I giggle, I have no idea.  But, there you have it.  The joke has now been explained to death, to the guy who "doesn't get it".

I am trying to envision the type of forum desired if posters like me disappeared. From my perspective it could only exist of,

Poster A: ''jee, golly gosh. Axl sure is swell''
B: ''sure is. Isn't Chinese Democracy a good album?''
A: ''Sure is. Cannot wait for another residency''
B: ''whoop e doo da''

If you remove every possible source of, negativity, that is all you are left with really.

See, that's a different argument, entirely.  And not the conversation we're having.  Since I made no comment to indicate that a) I think you should leave or b) that I think the contrarian POV should be eliminated at htgth, I'd point out that YOU just set up the straw man. Interesting, no? In any event, you should make THAT point to "whoever" you're having THAT conversation with. Maybe it will make sense in that context.

It certainly would have been less funny, and made more sense, as a response to jarmos comments.

You seem to have a habit of replying to innocuous flippant asides with over wrought self indulgent analyse. All this and I still have not recovered from 'riotous' gate!

[jarmo]

I don't think the "mystery" angle has near the hook you seem to think it does.

Really? You're not curious to hear what the band was up to during those years?

The general public considers what Axl has done the past 20 years a gross misadventure.  And even among GNR fans, there is hardly consensus that these supposed outtakes are in demand.  We still have people to this day that think Buckethead was a joke and still can't accept he was in the band.

Once again, how do I explain this.... This kind of release would not be aimed at the general public. How many times does this need to be repeated?
Do you think the general public ran out and bought the Adore boxset by the Smashing Pumpkins?
Let go of this thought that since the general public isn't interested, it's a bad idea. Enough already. Some free thinking! 

So you are down to the segment of the segment of the fanbase at this point.  I understand and agree with your point that box sets are geared towards the diehards.  But plainly put, there aren't near enough of them left to justify the expense of producing and marketing this sort of thing.  At least, not right now.

Exactly. Not every fan is gonna shell out $50-100 for a boxset.
It's common sense!

It's not for everybody.

It doesn't say that at all.  I was never given the option to buy officially released bootlegs.

You: I have X number of bootlegs.

You failed to mention you didn't pay for them. Suddenly your investment in the band seems less "grand".

That's the point. Nothing said about whether or not you had the option of buying it.
Are you telling me if you had the change you would've bought all those shows?

The fact I would buy it is not really relevant when it comes to whether this would be a viable commercial release.  Its like arguing a sequel to a movie should be greenlit, because you know a diehard fan that would go see it 6 times.  That diehard fan is not representative of the general populance, or even the fandom of that particular movie franchise.

You still don't seem to understand how some things can be aimed at a certain group of a bigger group.

A movie? That's your analogy?
Ever heard of indie movies? The masses rarely go see those, yet they are made.

There's also plenty of records released that sell maybe a few hundred copies. Why do they make those?
Why do bands tour when they can't sell out stadiums? What's the point?  


Assuming you have a bunch of outtakes, the recordings have been paid for already. It's not exactly like a movie that would have to shoot first!
A better analogy would have been if the second movie was shot at the time of the first, but then not released for some reason. The only thing left was to cut it and release it.

Why do you invite it, if it allegedly bothers you so much?

I didn't invite him. He invited himself.
You're saying we'd be better off kicking him out?




/jarmo

[pilferk]

You seem to have a habit of replying to innocuous flippant asides with over wrought self indulgent analyse. All this and I still have not recovered from 'riotous' gate!

RIGHT, it's me.  If you think anyone but you is buying that...I got a bridge to sell you. It's a convenient way to try to wiggle out when you're made to look "bad", though. I'll give you that. And it's just as intellectually bent as the words that got you into this.

Maybe it's time for you to wonder why your words get analyzed...and be a little more introspective. Cause trust me...every objective eye here knows it's you, not me. In fact..let me couch that: I think you KNOW why they get analyzed...and you get your jollies off the conflict.  Honestly, my first impression of you was "board warrior troll". I've dropped the board warrior conception...but I'm still not convinced you're not here just trolling for fun.  And none of this conversation has helped that perception.

And you'll never recover. Because each time someone (and it hasn't just been me) actually subjects your words to any sort of scrutiny, they fall apart. And then you try the same tired tactics to get out from under what you said. You backpedal. You twist on the hook.  It's obvious, it shows a complete lack of conviction or willingness to stand behind what you say, and it essentially means you're not to be taken seriously.

Here's a hint: If you don't like being taken to task for saying stupid, funny shit...stop saying stupid, (unintenionally) funny, shit.

But, in any event, Mo Vaughn.  Continue to provide the giggles....and I'll continue to point out where they occur. If you don't like it, tough shit.

[D-GenerationX]

Really? You're not curious to hear what the band was up to during those years?

I am one person.  A lifelong fan that would always be interested in anything and everything.  I am far more exception than rule.  

A label needs more than guys like me that would buy this totally unprompted and without one cent spent on marketing to justify its cost to produce.

Its just a numbers thing.  Aren't enough guys like me willing to shell out big bucks for a 3 or 4 CD set of outtakes and demos.

This all started because you took great offense at my saying I would not want to have to sell the label on this sort of project right now.  Those numbers are why I say that.

Once again, how do I explain this.... This kind of release would not be aimed at the general public. How many times does this need to be repeated?
Do you think the general public ran out and bought the Adore boxset by the Smashing Pumpkins?
Let go of this thought that since the general public isn't interested, it's a bad idea. Enough already. Some free thinking! 

Looks we'll have to do it a few more times, because you still can't accept the reality.

There aren't enough dedicated diehard GNR fans to justify this.  Axl has not only alienated the casual guy, he's alienated a good bit of his established fanbase.

We see people here everyday (and far more at other boards) who felt CD was decent, not great.  They still bought it, but were lukewarm.

What in the hell would make me think they are clamoring to fork over big cash for outtakes that couldn't make the 14 track album they bought and didn't love?

Exactly. Not every fan is gonna shell out $50-100 for a boxset.
It's common sense!

It's not for everybody.

No, its not.

But you might have a better chance at success if, god willing, a new album actually came out that people dug.  Perhaps at that point, they are more receptive to wanting more of that.

As of right now, we just don't have enough people that are looking to hear the tracks that couldn't beat out 'Rhiad & The Bedouins' for a slot on the album that has come out that they did buy.

Perhaps that changes if the next album were to contain something that actually made an impact with the people.  At that point, you might be inclined to hear more.  You aren't now.

You: I have X number of bootlegs.

You failed to mention you didn't pay for them. Suddenly your investment in the band seems less "grand".

That's the point. Nothing said about whether or not you had the option of buying it.
Are you telling me if you had the change you would've bought all those shows?

Hell yeah.  If there was an official CD from the Paris show, I'd have bought it.  There never was.  So I have a bootleg copy.

I have several bootlegs that I like, but are of dubious quality.  I would absolutely LOVE a chance to buy a soundboard version of them put out by the band.

You can't fault a guy for not paying for something he never had the option to.  The only thing sillier than that notion, is this one that a guy that scoured the internet for YEARS to track every single concert they could get (some of total dogshit quality) is not a dedicated fan.  Its the definition of a dedicated fan.  I never searched far and wide for a summer of 1991 concert YEARS later because I didn't buy the official releases.  Of course I did.  I have not beaten the band out of a dime.  And no one spends al that time and effort that is not crazy into the band in question.

Assuming you have a bunch of outtakes, the recordings have been paid for already. It's not exactly like a movie that would have to shoot first!

An exact argument I have made for YEARS now about Axl's magical mystery vault of songs already paid for and recorded.

Let's pray for a miracle there is even a single album release before we start talking about pie in the sky box sets of outtakes.

Why do you invite it, if it allegedly bothers you so much?

I didn't invite him. He invited himself.
You're saying we'd be better off kicking him out?

Life is a constant cost benefit analysis.  So when you see one of his posts that just steams your bean, you could :

#1.  Let it pass without comment.  It sinks down the page.

#2.  Not be able to quote it fast enough and pick it apart line by line, thus giving it far more attention than it ever could have gotten on its own.  And extending its shelf life from one post to a bang you head against the wall argument that goes on for 3 pages.

You pick option #2, every time.  Your spin is that you just can't let it pass.  I would suggest you absolutely could, but you rather relish these bickering sessions.  Nothing else makes sense.

Obviously, you are going to do what you are going to do.  But its quite literally impossible to garner any sympathy for you, because you enable it.  Its like the kid that has already scalded himself 6 times and still grabs that pot off the stove a 7th time.

Oh, you got burned?  Well, you don't say.

[jarmo]

I am one person.  A lifelong fan that would always be interested in anything and everything.  I am far more exception than rule.  

A label needs more than guys like me that would buy this totally unprompted and without one cent spent on marketing to justify its cost to produce.

Its just a numbers thing.  Aren't enough guys like me willing to shell out big bucks for a 3 or 4 CD set of outtakes and demos.

This all started because you took great offense at my saying I would not want to have to sell the label on this sort of project right now.  Those numbers are why I say that.

Could you break down the costs involved for me then?

I'm curious.


Once again, something like this isn't aimed at everybody who bought Chinese Democracy. It's not supposed to go platinum.

There aren't enough dedicated diehard GNR fans to justify this.  Axl has not only alienated the casual guy, he's alienated a good bit of his established fanbase.

A limited edition boxset sold at gunsnroses.com for let's say $75. Really? How many would you need to sell to make a profit?

Once again, I'm curious about your numbers. You must have some ind of information on this since everything seems to be a bad idea. Remix album, boxset.... Things I assumed fans would like to have the opportunity to purchase. But not you, Mr. Record Company Executive.


Tone down your positivity! 

Hell yeah.  If there was an official CD from the Paris show, I'd have bought it.  There never was.  So I have a bootleg copy.

No. Would you buy 400 bootlegs! That's your number. That's the question. Not whether or not you'd buy one.
Would you own 400 live albums if you had to pay for each one. That's the magical question.

But its quite literally impossible to garner any sympathy for you, because you enable it.  

Do I look for your sympathy? No.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Once again, I'm curious about your numbers. You must have some ind of information on this since everything seems to be a bad idea. Remix album, boxset.... Things I assumed fans would like to have the opportunity to purchase. But not you, Mr. Record Company Executive.

If your answer was just going to be that unless I work at a record company I'm not allowed to have an opinion, why ask the question in the first place?

Presumably, that cuts both ways, yes?  If I thought this was the greatest idea in the history of ideas, would my opinion then be OK to express?  It's not like I'd suddenly have the industry experience, or my lack of such is no longer a roadbock, simply because I came down on the other side.

Right?

No. Would you buy 400 bootlegs! That's your number. That's the question. Not whether or not you'd buy one.
Would you own 400 live albums if you had to pay for each one. That's the magical question.

No, probably not.

Would I have over 200?  Yeah, I probably would.  I just double checked my iTunes, and I have 97 GNR concerts on there, right now. 

But there are any number of interesting setlists where no bootleg exits, so I'd want those.  And there are a number of ones in iffy quality that I have on the hard drive, but not the iPod. 

So if I could get a decent copy of the show from their website?  I'd be 'bout it, 'bout it.

[jarmo]

Why don't you just present the numbers?
What kind of calculations did you do to come to the conclusion?


I'm thinking that in this day an age, you could make it a viable product. What am I basing that on?
Well, the fact that there's a fan base out there. The fact that it's been paid and recorded. And the fact that bands with smaller fan bases have managed to make similar releases work.
Am i assuming this would sell a million copies? No.

Now, it's your turn.



Regarding your live albums. Isn't that yet another product with limited interest? Yet, some bands release them....
Joe Average isn't gonna buy some show because they played that song.... But the hardcore fan might.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Regarding your live albums. Isn't that yet another product with limited interest? Yet, some bands release them....
Joe Average isn't gonna buy some show because they played that song.... But the hardcore fan might.

Agreed.

You would only incur costs if you were going to touch them up.  Like whatever the fuck they did to ruin 'Live Era'.  Not money well spent.

But if you are already recording the show at the board to release as is, you are all set.  If you do them digitally through the website, you don't even have to worry about packaging.

Your market would be limited, sure.  Completists, people at that particular show, and the guy who wants the show with the good version of <insert song here>.

[D-GenerationX]

I'm thinking that in this day an age, you could make it a viable product. What am I basing that on?
Well, the fact that there's a fan base out there. The fact that it's been paid and recorded. And the fact that bands with smaller fan bases have managed to make similar releases work.
Am i assuming this would sell a million copies? No.

Now, it's your turn.

I would channel some of this newfound energy you have into simply getting the next album out.

You are making all the same arguments many of us have made for years now, and all would apply to a regular album as well as some expansive box set.

For your lips to Axl's ears, I say.

[pilferk]

I'm gonna jump in here, a bit:

I think you could make a business case for releasing a limited edition (far less than 100k of them, maybe less than 50k) boxed set with "outtakes", alternate cuts, remixes, etc.  Do a small run to keep production costs low.  Limited direct marketing (maybe just to the GnR fan club/mailing list), so that would be low cost.  The press would pick it up, which would do some of your marketing for you. I mean, look at what they did with the "unauthorized" live show release CD that we talked about recently...most of the major outlets covered that it was coming, and that's from a rinky dink no name studio of old shows, that everyone has heard, from an unauthorized source.  Given the rarities, limited edition nature, etc...you could charge a premium price for it ($100, say). Hell, thrown in something hand signed by the band, you might get almost double that.

You're not going to MAKE a mint, but you're not going to really spend a whole lot, either. But I think you could go in and make a decent business case for it.

The issue is this: This only works if you've either given up on using any of that material on a future album OR if you know exactly what's going on that future release, so you can keep it out of the box set.  The one objection I can see the label having is in reducing the demand/market for the future "big" release.  I think we saw some of that with the leaks, and I think the label knows that any "official" release of new tracks is going to mean those tracks are "in the wild".  If 3 or 4 of them were then slated for use on the new "big" release...well, I don't think the label would be on board with that.

At the end of the day, I think it's doable.  Like any niche release, there are hurdles you'd have to overcome, and issues you'd have to address.  I don't think they're insurmountable, though.

And...finally...I'd buy it.

[jarmo]

There's still work involved. It's not just record it and it's done.
There's some work involved. You'd probably have to mix it. Then actually make it available to be sold.


Regarding the boxset, care to present some numbers or whatever it is you base your opinion on?

Ever heard of something that's limited edition? Obviously, if they press say 2000 copies of something, it's only gonna sell 2000 copies. Does it mean that since it's only selling that many, it must be a loss?
Wait, maybe the budget was made based on selling 1000 copies, and everything past that you'd be making a profit.... Could it be?




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

The issue is this: This only works if you've either given up on using any of that material on a future album OR if you know exactly what's going on that future release, so you can keep it out of the box set.  The one objection I can see the label having is in reducing the demand/market for the future "big" release.  I think we saw some of that with the leaks, and I think the label knows that any "official" release of new tracks is going to mean those tracks are "in the wild".  If 3 or 4 of them were then slated for use on the new "big" release...well, I don't think the label would be on board with that.

I agree.

Axl is claiming they already have "what I'd call the second half of 'Chinese' recorded."  That would have to come out before any box set of leftovers.

[D-GenerationX]

Regarding the boxset, care to present some numbers or whatever it is you base your opinion on?

No.

Ever heard of something that's limited edition? Obviously, if they press say 2000 copies of something, it's only gonna sell 2000 copies. Does it mean that since it's only selling that many, it must be a loss?
Wait, maybe the budget was made based on selling 1000 copies, and everything past that you'd be making a profit.... Could it be?

Sure, why not?

[pilferk]

There's still work involved. It's not just record it and it's done.
There's some work involved. You'd probably have to mix it. Then actually make it available to be sold.

Yeah, it's not "free", for sure.  Mix, master, production, marketing, and distribution.  But you can limit some of those.  You can limit the marketing by reducing scope.  You can reduce production by keeping the run low (but not so low as to create a "per unit" premium), and by potentially centralizing distribution (like, for example, only selling through GnR.com or contracting with a specific chain/retailer/distribution portal).

Regarding the boxset, care to present some numbers or whatever it is you base your opinion on?

Ever heard of something that's limited edition? Obviously, if they press say 2000 copies of something, it's only gonna sell 2000 copies. Does it mean that since it's only selling that many, it must be a loss?
Wait, maybe the budget was made based on selling 1000 copies, and everything past that you'd be making a profit.... Could it be?

I'm not sure this is directed at me.  But we've seen Pink Floyd, Aerosmith, The Rolling Stones, the Beatles, and others do similar things...either during "down times" (one of the Aerosmith box sets was during a period of 4-ish years where there was no new material), or after they were really an active, productive, band.

There are smaller, active, bands that have done it, too, and made it work.  Typically they include past material, alternates, out takes, etc...stuff that has been released, but in some alternate form, and maybe a couple/few of previously unreleased bonus tracks.  This would be SLIGHTLY different, but similar enough I think.

There's def a way to budget a smaller run to be profitable.