Ex G N' R manager blames Slash and Axl Rose’s feud on Michael Jackson

[D-GenerationX]

Insisting Gilby Clarke wasn't the answer is not really a rousing (or even coherent) defense of how Axl handled trying to bring Paul into the fold.

Can't it be that Gilby wasn't the guy, but Axl's approach and bringing Paul into the band was pretty clumsily handled and caused more problems than anything Paul might bring to the table could ever possibly offset?

Does erasing Slash's rhythm track and putting Paul on there without telling anyone actually a cool move...because, hey, Gilby wasn't a fit.  What does one have to do with the other?

[mortismurphy]

Fly on the Wall was actulally not that bad. Really good songs with a wrong production.

Yes, I blame the production more. It is probably one of their weaker albums though, that and Blow up your video. I think Flick of the Switch is underrated.

[mortismurphy]

Insisting Gilby Clarke wasn't the answer is not really a rousing (or even coherent) defense of how Axl handled trying to bring Paul into the fold.

Can't it be that Gilby wasn't the guy, but Axl's approach and bringing Paul into the band was pretty clumsily handled and caused more problems than anything Paul might bring to the table could ever possibly offset?

And ironically he then 'left' the band for 'not liking the touring thing' (Axl). After all that! Axl could have just kept Tobias as a background songwriter, someone to write with before bringing his ideas into Guns. Crisis averted.

[JAEBALL]

For once you actually have a point...all the bullshit with this guy Paul ..Slash Duff and Matt all can't stand him...



And then he walks away after what ? Three bleepin shows....


Fucking izzy.....

[D-GenerationX]

For once you actually have a point...all the bullshit with this guy Paul ..Slash Duff and Matt all can't stand him...

That's the thing.

It wasn't a personality confilct with one other guy.  It was the entire rest of the band saying they didn't want him.

So you dig in and insist they all better get the hell onboard because he's the guy?  We often joke that Axl would die on every hill, but over Paul Tobias?  You wind up jettisoning your entire band because you just HAD to have this guy?  Couldn't possibly be anyone else?

Its like mortgaging your future for one player.  If a dude cost you 3 first round picks, he better be a god damn stud.  Paul wound up working on many of the songs I find to be really strong on the album.  But the dude would have had to have been the lovechild of a prime Keith Richards and prime Jimmy Page to justify everything you jettisoned to bring him aboard.

[Sosso]

I don't think that Paul was the reason for the split-up. But he was used as a reason. That's it.

I would rather blame Slash because he refused to work with him right from the beginning.

[mortismurphy]

Apparently Slash did work with him. Apparently Tobias even went up to Slash's house and worked with him in his home studio.

[D-GenerationX]

I'm not going to claim Slash was super open minded about the guy.  By his own admission, he didn't think much of him.

But could your working relationship with Slash, not to mention your own's band's legacy and general viability, have such little value?

That's what I could never get past.  This wasn't breaking up your marriage for a comparable woman.  This was breaking up your marriage for someone that you got to second base with in high school.

[jarmo]

Tobias has an obscure co-credit, on two obscure GN'R songs. Gilby had written and recorded extensively as part of a signed entity. Also, Gilby was already a member of GN'R publicly. What is the logic of bringing in a new band member, featuring him live, including his face on the photos, in the booklets, etc, if you are only going to fire him because you 'do not rate his songwriting?'. If Gilby was recruited as merely a stand-in, it should have been like a Darryl Jones scenario.

When he was hired, was there a plan to write with him?

You call having song writing credits with GN'R obscure. How many of us had heard of or owned a Candy album or Kill For Thrills before Gilby joined GN'R? Were these bands you listened to?

From that quote, Slash implies there were lyrically some Slash songs and some Eric. Since all of the songwriting credits except for Be the Ball, Gilby's and the instrumental contain Dover's name, that means Eric was also writing on Slash's songs also. Just what is he contributing here, to obtain a songwriting credit? Please tell me? Seeing that Dover wrote the lyrics to the songs Slash says he wrote in your quote, yet also co-wrote the lyrics to Slash's songs, we can assume that Eric wrote a lot of lyrics. Assuming a 50/50 split (and I freely admit, I am assuming a lot here), that would be 75%.

Hold on. Your claim is that since Dover is credited in most songs, it means Axl lied. I pointed out that Slash says he wrote some of the lyrics.
It doesn't interest me who wrote what and how many percent.

I merely pointed out that you're wrong, again, in your assumption.

Besides we are splitting hairs here. None of Dover's lyrics existed when the DAT was produced for Axl. Fact. The DAT had 12 songs on it. I think it is fair to say that those 12 correspond with the 12 Slash mentions in your quote. At best, Axl told a half truth, or a half lie.

Or the songs that ended up on Snakepit aren't exactly the same. I find it hard to believe the Gilby track was presented by Slash to Axl as his songs for GN'R.

Here we go again, the old 'sober', 'drug addicts' line. Slash was drinking a bit then but there are enough interviews from that period which shows he was coherent and in control.

Well according to Duff he was a drug addict at the time when Duff himself was sober.
Later on, after he quit GN'R, it didn't get better!
 

I do not believe I have ever defended DC here to any great extent. I mean if you want me to defend one of their lousier 1980s albums such as Fly on the Wall, it is not going to happen Jarmo.

I want to believe!

I see you offer so much understanding for other bands but not GN'R. Ironic.

I don't think that Paul was the reason for the split-up. But he was used as a reason. That's it.

I would rather blame Slash because he refused to work with him right from the beginning.

It's easier to find a scapegoat than to take any personal responsibility.





/jarmo

[mortismurphy]

When he was hired, was there a plan to write with him?

The GN'R songwriting method, which tended to be a free for all, predisposes a contribution from the rhythm guitarist. I did feel Gilby was a full time member when I was ten years old. I never considered him a, ''GN'R member but only when playing live'' or some other caveat. But it never happened anyway and Axl sacked the poor guy. 

You call having song writing credits with GN'R obscure. How many of us had heard of or owned a Candy album or Kill For Thrills before Gilby joined GN'R? Were these bands you listened to?

They were signed bands which featured Gilby, writing and recording. ''Vs a GNR b-side and 1980s cheesy Illusion filler?'' I would call it GN'R but this is not exactly the confidence building argument you want to make.

Hold on. Your claim is that since Dover is credited in most songs, it means Axl lied. I pointed out that Slash says he wrote some of the lyrics.
It doesn't interest me who wrote what and how many percent.

It should as I used the term 'most' and the main point of the argument seems to rest on whether these lyrics were written by Dover, after Snakepit was formed, after Axl's dismissal of the demos.

Or the songs that ended up on Snakepit aren't exactly the same. I find it hard to believe the Gilby track was presented by Slash to Axl as his songs for GN'R.

There are 14 songs on the finished album, It's Five o clock Somewhere. The twelve Slash/Eric songs, the Gilby song and (perhaps) the instrumental= 14. The maths tally.

Well according to Duff he was a drug addict at the time when Duff himself was sober.
Later on, after he quit GN'R, it didn't get better!

Look at the interviews. He is tipsy but fully in control. Why should it matter anyway? Izzy was a full blown smack addict in 1986-7. So was Slash and Steven. Yet the end product was Appetite for Destruction. Stinson is paralytic at every New gnr show yet I do not see you applying a similar critique of 'intoxicated GN'R members' against him when he is performing with new gnr!

I see you offer so much understanding for other bands but not GN'R. Ironic.

You are always going to see these will o' the wisps so long as you believe rock fandom necessitates unilateral unflinching 100% dying support for that said act. You are always going to have this problem Jarmo.

[pilferk]

The GN'R songwriting method, which tended to be a free for all, predisposes a contribution from the rhythm guitarist. I did feel Gilby was a full time member when I was ten years old. I never considered him a, ''GN'R member but only when playing live'' or some other caveat. But it never happened anyway and Axl sacked the poor guy. 

Just one small chime in, and maybe it's because I was older, hanging with an even older crowd...but pretty much all the GnR fans in my "circle" considered Gilby as an Izzy replacement player for the tour.

In fact, it led to a ton of heated discussions as to who was going to ACTUALLY take that spot if Izzy didn't come back...because pretty much everyone viewed (and even called him) a "Gun for Hire".

MATT, on the other hand....I think pretty much everyone assumed was Adler's ACTUAL replacement behind the kit, for good.

[jarmo]

The GN'R songwriting method, which tended to be a free for all, predisposes a contribution from the rhythm guitarist. I did feel Gilby was a full time member when I was ten years old. I never considered him a, ''GN'R member but only when playing live'' or some other caveat. But it never happened anyway and Axl sacked the poor guy.

It doesn't really matter what you or I thought at the time.
I just don't recall any statements about him being there as a permanent member.

They were signed bands which featured Gilby, writing and recording. ''Vs a GNR b-side and 1980s cheesy Illusion filler?'' I would call it GN'R but this is not exactly the confidence building argument you want to make.

Signed bands versus a person who had already worked with Axl and had song writing credits on GN'R releases.
Besides, Paul was only there until they could find somebody else.

It should as I used the term 'most' and the main point of the argument seems to rest on whether these lyrics were written by Dover, after Snakepit was formed, after Axl's dismissal of the demos.

I don't believe it. Look at Slash's quote. The only song he is the sole writer on is Be The Ball. I'm sure he wrote more lyrics than one song.

There are 14 songs on the finished album, It's Five o clock Somewhere. The twelve Slash/Eric songs, the Gilby song and (perhaps) the instrumental= 14. The maths tally.

Still doesn't prove that Axl lied as you put it.
Because you don't know what he wrote!

Look at the interviews. He is tipsy but fully in control. Why should it matter anyway?

So you're saying the recollection of somebody under the influence is as good as those who aren't?

I'd say the town drunk might not be the most credible witness of events. That's just common sense.




/jarmo

[JAEBALL]

The GN'R songwriting method, which tended to be a free for all, predisposes a contribution from the rhythm guitarist. I did feel Gilby was a full time member when I was ten years old. I never considered him a, ''GN'R member but only when playing live'' or some other caveat. But it never happened anyway and Axl sacked the poor guy. 

Just one small chime in, and maybe it's because I was older, hanging with an even older crowd...but pretty much all the GnR fans in my "circle" considered Gilby as an Izzy replacement player for the tour.

In fact, it led to a ton of heated discussions as to who was going to ACTUALLY take that spot if Izzy didn't come back...because pretty much everyone viewed (and even called him) a "Gun for Hire".

MATT, on the other hand....I think pretty much everyone assumed was Adler's ACTUAL replacement behind the kit, for good.

I was a little young at the time... but looking back I think it was clear even then Matt was always in the long term plan for the band while Gilby was not.

Also never understood why Gilby is considered part of the Illusion "lineup" or "era" when those are ALL Izzy's songs...Gilby had nothing to do with them... he just filled in very admirably during that epic run on the road.

[jarmo]

An era in this case is the album cycle.

The tour is part of that cycle. And "TSI?" was recorded during that era, so it makes sense that it's lumped together with it.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Just one small chime in, and maybe it's because I was older, hanging with an even older crowd...but pretty much all the GnR fans in my "circle" considered Gilby as an Izzy replacement player for the tour.

In fact, it led to a ton of heated discussions as to who was going to ACTUALLY take that spot if Izzy didn't come back...because pretty much everyone viewed (and even called him) a "Gun for Hire".

MATT, on the other hand....I think pretty much everyone assumed was Adler's ACTUAL replacement behind the kit, for good.

Yeah, because Adler was a fuck-up.  You kind of knew he wasn't coming back.

I don't remember any real distinction that Gilby was strictly a hired gun.  But, I can also say I never got any sort of read that people considered him essential personnel either.

[pilferk]

Just one small chime in, and maybe it's because I was older, hanging with an even older crowd...but pretty much all the GnR fans in my "circle" considered Gilby as an Izzy replacement player for the tour.

In fact, it led to a ton of heated discussions as to who was going to ACTUALLY take that spot if Izzy didn't come back...because pretty much everyone viewed (and even called him) a "Gun for Hire".

MATT, on the other hand....I think pretty much everyone assumed was Adler's ACTUAL replacement behind the kit, for good.

Yeah, because Adler was a fuck-up.  You kind of knew he wasn't coming back.

I don't remember any real distinction that Gilby was strictly a hired gun.  But, I can also say I never got any sort of read that people considered him essential personnel either.

Maybe it was the way it all played out, in terms of timings and stuff, IDK.   

Matt seemed to have some more thought and consideration given, and seemed a better "fit" (in terms of credibility, creative ability/history, etc). It wasn't JUST that Adler was a fuck up, and was pretty much assuredly not coming back.

Gilby never felt like the best fit, just the best player/mimic (and that's not meant as a diss....just that he could learn the songs very quickly) they could get on really short notice. The consensus amongst my group of friends was that Gilby was along for the UYI tour, and then a "real" replacement would be found before the next "new material" album was put together. I'm not saying we were right, or that it really matters a ton.  I'm just pointing out that "Gilby is a full fledged, card carying, forever and indespensible member of GnR" wasn't necessarily the universal view amongst the fans.

I don't have anything against the guy...he did the job I think that was intended for him, and did it very well!  I was just never under the impression that the intent was for him to replace Izzy, permanently.  Izzy's contributions were too varied, and much more creative in nature, than anything Gilby had ever done before.  If anything, Gilby was like the ANTI-Izzy....good at the performance side but, at the very least, unproven (and what he had put out wasn't very "GnR" like) creatively (at the time).  Even now, I think his "claim to fame" is much more in relation to his session playing and live playing contributions vs his creative output (and yes, I've heard his solo albums and some of his other, collaborative stuff).

But that's just me.

Edit: I also think it's SLIGHTLY compelling that Gilby was NOT inducted to the R&RHOF along with some of the other membership (but he did play with them). Matt was inducted.  I mean...I know we've debated the whole R&R HOF thing, and I largely fall on the side of it's irrelevance and commercialization (ie: it's meant to make money for folks).  However, in this case I think it's a valid example that at least SOME folks felt/feel largely the same way about Gilby's involvement with GnR.

[D-GenerationX]

Edit: I also think it's SLIGHTLY compelling that Gilby was NOT inducted to the R&RHOF along with some of the other membership (but he did play with them). Matt was inducted.  I mean...I know we've debated the whole R&R HOF thing, and I largely fall on the side of it's irrelevance and commercialization (ie: it's meant to make money for folks).  However, in this case I think it's a valid example that at least SOME folks felt/feel largely the same way about Gilby's involvement with GnR.

I saw the difference being that Matt played on all 30 UYI tracks.

I know that he did not write anything, but that is his drumming on those songs.  Dizzy never wrote anything either, but he got in under the same premise.

Gilby can't claim any of that.  Gilby never played on anything that was the basis for their induction.  I think its fair to suggest that even if TSI never even came out, it would not have affected their induction.  They were inducted based on AFD, Lies, and the UYI albums.

[pilferk]

Edit: I also think it's SLIGHTLY compelling that Gilby was NOT inducted to the R&RHOF along with some of the other membership (but he did play with them). Matt was inducted.  I mean...I know we've debated the whole R&R HOF thing, and I largely fall on the side of it's irrelevance and commercialization (ie: it's meant to make money for folks).  However, in this case I think it's a valid example that at least SOME folks felt/feel largely the same way about Gilby's involvement with GnR.

I saw the difference being that Matt played on all 30 UYI tracks.

I know that he did not write anything, but that is his drumming on those songs.  Dizzy never wrote anything either, but he got in under the same premise.

Gilby can't claim any of that.  Gilby never played on anything that was the basis for their induction.  I think its fair to suggest that even if TSI never even came out, it would not have affected their induction.  They were inducted based on AFD, Lies, and the UYI albums.

I agree, that was part of it (Matt's involvement in UYI).

But that still goes to the point: Gilby seems to have been brought in basically to tour in Izzy's spot, with not much thought to him after that.  He did play on TSI, but (besides being covers)...maybe I'm misremembering here..hadn't Izzy laid those tracks down already, mostly, during the UYI sessions?  Gilby re-recorded them..but they were still basically "replays" of Izzys tracks...IE: session play.

Matt might have laid down the tracks Adler wrote...BUT that was because Adler flat out couldn't play what he'd written (which makes you wonder how he had written them).  I always point to YCBM...that might be Adler's notation, but that's Matt's drumming/personality/embelishments coming through. Ditto on Coma.

[mortismurphy]

It doesn't really matter what you or I thought at the time.
I just don't recall any statements about him being there as a permanent member.

He was a 'Guns N' Roses' member. It is that simple. He featured in the official artwork (in TSI booklet and Robert John book), was interviewed on the understanding as being a 'bona fide' member, and was simply assumed to be a member. The public at the time did not spend much time investigating the minutiae of this.

Signed bands versus a person who had already worked with Axl and had song writing credits on GN'R releases.
Besides, Paul was only there until they could find somebody else.

Nothing makes much sense about the Paul Tobias thing.

I don't believe it. Look at Slash's quote. The only song he is the sole writer on is Be The Ball. I'm sure he wrote more lyrics than one song.

Probably but Dover is being credited for something here. What is he being credited for here Jarmo?

Still doesn't prove that Axl lied as you put it.
Because you don't know what he wrote!

How many lyrics did Slash write for GN'R? He traditionally does not write lyrics.

So you're saying the recollection of somebody under the influence is as good as those who aren't?

Depends on your interpretation of 'under the influence'. People can have a few drinks in them and still recollect things fairly easily. Obviously if you are paralytic, then you will not be able to recollect things.

[jarmo]

He was a 'Guns N' Roses' member. It is that simple. He featured in the official artwork (in TSI booklet and Robert John book), was interviewed on the understanding as being a 'bona fide' member, and was simply assumed to be a member. The public at the time did not spend much time investigating the minutiae of this.

Still doesn't matter how many photos he was in!
It doesn't prove that he was indeed hired to write songs with the band.

Probably but Dover is being credited for something here. What is he being credited for here Jarmo?

You tell me. You seem to know something the rest of the world doesn't.
Steven Adler got paid for songs he didn't write a note on.

How many lyrics did Slash write for GN'R? He traditionally does not write lyrics.

Traditionally?
This was a point when he wanted them to do his songs his way.

Slash doesn't traditionally sing, but he did on "TSI?". Go figure.

But even he says he wrote lyrics to those songs..... And here you are trying to say the opposite to prove your point. Your only evidence is the songs' credits.

Depends on your interpretation of 'under the influence'. People can have a few drinks in them and still recollect things fairly easily. Obviously if you are paralytic, then you will not be able to recollect things.

According to Duff's book, Slash would still do more than drink at his time.




/jarmo