New song-writing rights

[Spirit]

Like I said, Live Era lists Guns N' Roses Music ASCAP, and Appetite For Democracy lists both (GN'R Music & Black Frog).

I'm just a little confused about the big picture.

Live Era lists the same writing credits as the original albums (for example November Rain credits only Axl)
Greatest Hits and Appetite For Democracy lists new writing credits for the Illusion songs (Axl, Slash, Duff and Izzy on all songs)

Obviously something changed between Live Era (1999) and Greatest Hits (2004).



Has this something to do with Axl establishing Black Frog Music, or is there no connection there?

[jarmo]

One is song writing credits, one is publishing. That's what I suspect.

Axl wrote November Rain. It didn't change.

What might have changed is what publishing company gets compensated for its performance (used to be Guns N' Roses Music), now it's GN'R Music & Black Frog.
I suspect old band's songs are still associated with Guns N' Roses Music like always. But Axl has Black Frog, so his piece of the GN'R Music pie is now listed separately.




/jarmo

[Spirit]

One is song writing credits, one is publishing. That's what I suspect.

Axl wrote November Rain. It didn't change.

So they only changed the way credits are written in the album liner notes, then.

Before it was the actual writer named in the booklet, while everybody involved was still paid from day one.

And now everybody who gets paid royalties for the song are put in as "writer" in the liner notes.

What might have changed is what publishing company gets compensated for its performance (used to be Guns N' Roses Music), now it's GN'R Music & Black Frog.
I suspect old band's songs are still associated with Guns N' Roses Music like always. But Axl has Black Frog, so his piece of the GN'R Music pie is now listed separately.

This is what I think as well.

[EmilyGNR]

It's honestly not confusing at all.

[Spirit]

It's honestly not confusing at all.

Then, why did they change the way they write credits?

[jarmo]

It's honestly not confusing at all.

Then, why did they change the way they write credits?

I think they might have written who gets compensated (publishing), not who technically wrote what song.

Kinda like mentioning an author of a book compared to the publishing company.




/jarmo

[TheBaconman]

So then edm the liner notes of the album CD has different people listed than this publishing website

On this website Robin has almost double the credits

This is one topic that's really hard to discus over the Internet.   I have  too many questions!!!!  And it's almost miller time

[TheBaconman]

It's honestly not confusing at all.

Then, why did they change the way they write credits?

I think they might have written who gets compensated (publishing), not who technically wrote what song.

Kinda like mentioning an author of a book compared to the publishing company.




/jarmo

So the website lists both the different publishing companies for all individuals involved in the song.  Then it lists every individual invved in writting the song

So you are right it is two things.   

But the website lists both

And from what i see it has changed the writting credits for some songs

Where it could of just listed the publishing credits alone....

[Spirit]

It's honestly not confusing at all.

Then, why did they change the way they write credits?

I think they might have written who gets compensated (publishing), not who technically wrote what song.

Kinda like mentioning an author of a book compared to the publishing company.




/jarmo

This is 100% what they seem to be doing now.

I was just curious to the fact that they changed their way of writing the credits in the booklet. Some sort of new industry standard, or just pure coincidence maybe.

New people in charge of creating the liner notes and maybe they just took the easy way and used the publishing as a source.

[Spirit]

So the website lists both the different publishing companies for all individuals involved in the song.  Then it lists every individual invved in writting the song

So you are right it is two things.   

But the website lists both

And from what i see it has changed the writting credits for some songs

Where it could of just listed the publishing credits alone....

I think the "publishing writer credit" and "actual writing credits" are two different things.

As for Chinese Democracy, Robin is only credited for one song in the booklet, while he has publishing rights for several songs.

By the artists criteria, Robin only co-wrote Better. By the publishing criteria he co-wrote more songs.

It's a bit confusing, but this is what I have gathered.



EDIT:
The only thing that doesn't add up is that the publishing is mentioned in the liner notes of the album.

In Robin Finck's case his publishing is only mentioned on Better.

In the ASCAP directory he has publishing for writing Better, Catcher, Chinese, Prostitute, Riad, Shacklers and Street of Dreams.

This could perhaps be attributed to the booklet being faulty. There were other mistakes, so..

[TheBaconman]

So the website lists both the different publishing companies for all individuals involved in the song.  Then it lists every individual invved in writting the song

So you are right it is two things.   

But the website lists both

And from what i see it has changed the writting credits for some songs

Where it could of just listed the publishing credits alone....

I think the "publishing writer credit" and "actual writing credits" are two different things.

As for Chinese Democracy, Robin is only credited for one song in the booklet, while he has publishing rights for several songs.

By the artists criteria, Robin only co-wrote Better. By the publishing criteria he co-wrote more songs.

It's a bit confusing, but this is what I have gathered.



EDIT:
The only thing that doesn't add up is that the publishing is mentioned in the liner notes of the album.

In Robin Finck's case his publishing is only mentioned on Better.

In the ASCAP directory he has publishing for writing Better, Catcher, Chinese, Prostitute, Riad, Shacklers and Street of Dreams.

This could perhaps be attributed to the booklet being faulty. There were other mistakes, so..

It's very confusing. 

So for example

Axl is really hard up for a relpacment for Ron.  So he calls TheBaconman.   After a bit of negotiations, accept.   But I can't really play anything, my guitar work sounds like crap.  But I have a great smile and that's all that counts.   So now Axl wants this guitar work on his next album.   All the songs are wrote.  But he wants a solo from me on each song.    Now no matter how bad the work I do is, if I am on a song.   Do I now get publishing writes?   

[Spirit]

So the website lists both the different publishing companies for all individuals involved in the song.  Then it lists every individual invved in writting the song

So you are right it is two things.   

But the website lists both

And from what i see it has changed the writting credits for some songs

Where it could of just listed the publishing credits alone....

I think the "publishing writer credit" and "actual writing credits" are two different things.

As for Chinese Democracy, Robin is only credited for one song in the booklet, while he has publishing rights for several songs.

By the artists criteria, Robin only co-wrote Better. By the publishing criteria he co-wrote more songs.

It's a bit confusing, but this is what I have gathered.



EDIT:
The only thing that doesn't add up is that the publishing is mentioned in the liner notes of the album.

In Robin Finck's case his publishing is only mentioned on Better.

In the ASCAP directory he has publishing for writing Better, Catcher, Chinese, Prostitute, Riad, Shacklers and Street of Dreams.

This could perhaps be attributed to the booklet being faulty. There were other mistakes, so..

It's very confusing. 

So for example

Axl is really hard up for a relpacment for Ron.  So he calls TheBaconman.   After a bit of negotiations, accept.   But I can't really play anything, my guitar work sounds like crap.  But I have a great smile and that's all that counts.   So now Axl wants this guitar work on his next album.   All the songs are wrote.  But he wants a solo from me on each song.    Now no matter how bad the work I do is, if I am on a song.   Do I now get publishing writes?   

I think there's a fuck up in the booklet. The ASCAP directory is pretty official, right?

They would have needed to fill out some documents to register the credits with ASCAP I would think.

[TheBaconman]

So the website lists both the different publishing companies for all individuals involved in the song.  Then it lists every individual invved in writting the song

So you are right it is two things.   

But the website lists both

And from what i see it has changed the writting credits for some songs

Where it could of just listed the publishing credits alone....

I think the "publishing writer credit" and "actual writing credits" are two different things.

As for Chinese Democracy, Robin is only credited for one song in the booklet, while he has publishing rights for several songs.

By the artists criteria, Robin only co-wrote Better. By the publishing criteria he co-wrote more songs.

It's a bit confusing, but this is what I have gathered.



EDIT:
The only thing that doesn't add up is that the publishing is mentioned in the liner notes of the album.

In Robin Finck's case his publishing is only mentioned on Better.

In the ASCAP directory he has publishing for writing Better, Catcher, Chinese, Prostitute, Riad, Shacklers and Street of Dreams.

This could perhaps be attributed to the booklet being faulty. There were other mistakes, so..

It's very confusing. 

So for example

Axl is really hard up for a relpacment for Ron.  So he calls TheBaconman.   After a bit of negotiations, accept.   But I can't really play anything, my guitar work sounds like crap.  But I have a great smile and that's all that counts.   So now Axl wants this guitar work on his next album.   All the songs are wrote.  But he wants a solo from me on each song.    Now no matter how bad the work I do is, if I am on a song.   Do I now get publishing writes?   

I think there's a fuck up in the booklet. The ASCAP directory is pretty official, right?

They would have needed to fill out some documents to register the credits with ASCAP I would think.

You would think there would have to be lawyers and legal legs involved

But then it gets back to point about estranged

Where all slash did was ask Axl for a writing credit    Is that how it works?   You just ask someone?  Lol. That doesn't seem right

I know not all studio performers receive publishing royalties for there music being played.   If it was not part of there "deal"

[Spirit]

But then it gets back to point about estranged

Where all slash did was ask Axl for a writing credit    Is that how it works?   You just ask someone?  Lol. That doesn't seem right

I know not all studio performers receive publishing royalties for there music being played.   If it was not part of there "deal"

When it comes to writing credits, the way I understand it, it's all up to the artists. There is a norm that says lyrics and melody gives you the credit, but it's all up to the artist how they want to do it.

Take Appetite as an example. They just decided that everyone gets credit, regardless of who actually wrote the songs.

[mortismurphy]

It was a business arrangement. It is a bit like Lennon-McCartney. 'Yesterdays' was Lennon-McCartney even though it was essentially a McCartney solo song. Around 1968, Lennon and McCartney ceased to write together completely but Lennon-McCartney still functioned as a business arrangement and dumping ground for their respective solo songs. Guns seem to have created 'Guns N' Roses ASCAP' which included all full partners of the band (as it was then). So long as the songs were credited to 'Guns N' Roses' (Appetite) the distinction did not really matter, but when they decided to have demarcated song writing credits (Illusion) you ended up with a scenario of having two separate credits.

One way to look at it is, the ASCAP credit is de jure whereas the booklet credit is de facto.

[Spirit]

One way to look at it is, the ASCAP credit is de jure whereas the booklet credit is de facto.

That seems right.

[TheBaconman]

It was a business arrangement. It is a bit like Lennon-McCartney. 'Yesterdays' was Lennon-McCartney even though it was essentially a McCartney solo song. Around 1968, Lennon and McCartney ceased to write together completely but Lennon-McCartney still functioned as a business arrangement and dumping ground for their respective solo songs. Guns seem to have created 'Guns N' Roses ASCAP' which included all full partners of the band (as it was then). So long as the songs were credited to 'Guns N' Roses' (Appetite) the distinction did not really matter, but when they decided to have demarcated song writing credits (Illusion) you ended up with a scenario of having two separate credits.

One way to look at it is, the ASCAP credit is de jure whereas the booklet credit is de facto.

Yes you seemed to sum up what I was thinking

So just a couple more questions

Afd.  Writing credits equal.   Lies.  Equal

Uyi.  Split up individually.    And everyone was fine in the band with that.  So I really have nothing to say

But now have they gone back and changed this?  So that all the writing credits are equal again.

Or

Is this totally separate.   And is this just a reflection of a performers right to receive publishing royalties for playing on a song

[Spirit]

I think it's just the way they decided to put it down in the liner notes of the album. They still got paid equally.

[TheBaconman]

I think it's just the way they decided to put it down in the liner notes of the album. They still got paid equally.

Awwww see there is where I don't think they did 

[Spirit]

I think it's just the way they decided to put it down in the liner notes of the album. They still got paid equally.

Awwww see there is where I don't think they did 

Maybe not. There's some piece of info we're missing to know for sure.