2015 NFL Season

[pilferk]

One thing I don't get, maybe someone could help to explain. It is documented in the Wells Report that after the Jets game, in which the balls measured at 16 psi, Brady had the psi rules and regulations printed out and delivered to the officials so that wouldn't happen again.

Why in the world would he do that if he was knowingly taking air out of the balls? Isn't that asking to get caught?

There's suppositions and leaps made on each side. Let's not pretend like everything the NFL has presented has been fair and balanced and all the Patriots are coming forth with are lies, propaganda, and excuses.

Which Jets game? Home or away? I can't remember which game that happened at...just that it happened at one of them.

[pilferk]

I agreed with you long ago that the Patriots should've taken a more gentle approach off the bat. But let's not forget that this story was gaining steam the day after they crushed the Colts. The media was running with the false information the league had leaked. People were calling for Brady and Belichick to be suspended for the Super Bowl. Michael Wilbon was taking the stance that the team should forfeit their appearance in the Super Bowl. And a lot of people agreed with any and all of these things. Maybe they felt they had to be defiant to make sure that stuff didn't happen. Who knows what would've happened if they took a different approach. I'd like to think the they wouldn't have been that extreme, but I don't trust the league one iota. Again, public pressure could've reached the point where Goodell could've felt the need to do something drastic. I see that as a certain possibility.

I think there is zero possibility that anything happens going into the super bowl. ZERO.

Mostly because league official confirmed that within 24 hours of the story breaking.  There could be no way they could investigate, rule, address the obvious appeal process, and enforce a suspension in 2 weeks. Absolutely no way.  Hell, the NFLPA, alone, wouldn't allow things to move that fast even if the league WANTED to.

And, if the league leaked the false info, and knew it was false....you're supposing they would have acted on the false info and issued suspensions, knowing that, at some point,  they'd have to share the correct info?  Does that really pass the sniff test?

There is a difference between "not trusting the league" and thinking the league is stupid.  And there is a logic issue with ascribing this convoluted, elaborate conspiracy theory which would take intelligence, savy, and cunning to concoct and enact vs the stupidity of levying suspensions based on knowingly false information. No?

[faldor]

I agreed with you long ago that the Patriots should've taken a more gentle approach off the bat. But let's not forget that this story was gaining steam the day after they crushed the Colts. The media was running with the false information the league had leaked. People were calling for Brady and Belichick to be suspended for the Super Bowl. Michael Wilbon was taking the stance that the team should forfeit their appearance in the Super Bowl. And a lot of people agreed with any and all of these things. Maybe they felt they had to be defiant to make sure that stuff didn't happen. Who knows what would've happened if they took a different approach. I'd like to think the they wouldn't have been that extreme, but I don't trust the league one iota. Again, public pressure could've reached the point where Goodell could've felt the need to do something drastic. I see that as a certain possibility.

I think there is zero possibility that anything happens going into the super bowl. ZERO.

Mostly because league official confirmed that within 24 hours of the story breaking.  There could be no way they could investigate, rule, address the obvious appeal process, and enforce a suspension in 2 weeks. Absolutely no way.  Hell, the NFLPA, alone, wouldn't allow things to move that fast even if the league WANTED to.

And, if the league leaked the false info, and knew it was false....you're supposing they would have acted on the false info and issued suspensions, knowing that, at some point,  they'd have to share the correct info?  Does that really pass the sniff test?

There is a difference between "not trusting the league" and thinking the league is stupid.  And there is a logic issue with ascribing this convoluted, elaborate conspiracy theory which would take intelligence, savy, and cunning to concoct and enact vs the stupidity of levying suspensions based on knowingly false information. No?

The same league that burned the tapes from my very own New England Patriots following Spygate. They don't always share the correct evidence. Yes, it seems they pick and choose. I fully believe they could've run with those initial reports and never corrected them if the Pats kneeled down and accepted discipline. Why else did they let that report out there so long? Only because of the Wells Report did we get the actual numbers. You think if discipline was doled out based on those initial numbers, months later they would've come out.

By the way, those penalties we imposed on the Patriots and Brady based on those initial erroneous reports. Yeah, those numbers were way off. It actually wasn't nearly as bad as was reported. But, we're sticking with the punishment anyways. We pride ourselves on being truthful with the public though, so we felt the need to share this information.

Much love,
Roger

[faldor]

One thing I don't get, maybe someone could help to explain. It is documented in the Wells Report that after the Jets game, in which the balls measured at 16 psi, Brady had the psi rules and regulations printed out and delivered to the officials so that wouldn't happen again.

Why in the world would he do that if he was knowingly taking air out of the balls? Isn't that asking to get caught?

There's suppositions and leaps made on each side. Let's not pretend like everything the NFL has presented has been fair and balanced and all the Patriots are coming forth with are lies, propaganda, and excuses.

Which Jets game? Home or away? I can't remember which game that happened at...just that it happened at one of them.

I believe it was a home game. Last season, week 7.

[pilferk]

The same league that burned the tapes from my very own New England Patriots following Spygate. They don't always share the correct evidence. Yes, it seems they pick and choose. I fully believe they could've run with those initial reports and never corrected them if the Pats kneeled down and accepted discipline. Why else did they let that report out there so long? Only because of the Wells Report did we get the actual numbers. You think if discipline was doled out based on those initial numbers, months later they would've come out.

They "left it out there" so long, likely, because it was a leak, not Presser.  And the numbers were starting to get questioned pretty quick...about 24 to 48 hours post the leak (which you actually kindly pointed out in the discussions at the time, I think)...so after that, there wasn't much reason. AND, when the NFL officials DID finally comment (before the Wells Report was issued), they said those numbers were not official and they had no exact numbers to share.  It's not a refutation of the numbers, but it's as close as you can reasonably expect to get when addressing "a leak".

By the way, those penalties we imposed on the Patriots and Brady based on those initial erroneous reports. Yeah, those numbers were way off. It actually wasn't nearly as bad as was reported. But, we're sticking with the punishment anyways. We pride ourselves on being truthful with the public though, so we felt the need to share this information.

Much love,
Roger

I suspect, if the discipline were fines, there would be no reason to rescind or lower the punishment.  I think, still, there is enough evidence to show there was some form of tampering...even with the lower numbers than reported by the leak.

IF there were suspensions, there was always going to be an appeal.  The NFLPA pretty much mandates that, anyway and then, yes, I think the real numbers would have come out, absent the Wells Report.

IF there was always going to be a Wells Report then, yes, I think those numbers would have been released, regardless of the punishment phase.  Because they would have had to release them...there were enough witnesses to the measurements that it would have come out they were taken (it did, in fact, before the report was released, though the specifics were slightly off)....and so they couldn't very well hide them.  Doing so would have bit them in the ass, and, as you've pointed out, they want to control the narrative.  In that case, the narrative would have been that the league was withholding information...and the press would have lynched them.

[GeorgeSteele]

I'm not questioning the "more probable than not" standard; just questioning deciding guilt based on the "common sense" take that the mere fact that the NFL went after the poster boy is proof that the poster boy is guilty.  I'm fine with the "more probable than not" standard, I just don't think the evidence was there to overcome it.  Roger Goodell and the law firm he hired to prepare an "independent report" disagrees with me, not surprised.

Again, I don't think the league going after him means he's guilty.

Didn't suggest you thought that; I was clarifying my response to Jaeball, which you responded to.

But I don't think just BECAUSE he's the poster boy that he's innocent, either.

Neither do I; I think he's innocent because the evidence of his guilt is flimsy.

After reading the report, and the Pats response, and everything else in between....I think they easily break 51%.  Not 99%...but well over 51%.  Simply because there is way too much to try to explain away.  Again, you can poo poo any ONE thing...but all of them?  That takes too much of a leap for me.

There is practically no legit evidence in the Wells Report that the Pats illegally under inflated footballs; the only evidence in there that bordered on scientific was debunked.

The benefit of this controversy is that since this 'scandal' has dominated the news, the NFL has not had to address any negative issues affecting its brand (concussions, former player suicides, domestic violence, etc.).  Plus, the NFL just back-doored its way into subpoena power.  Even though the CBA does not give the NFL the right to subpoena a player's personal property, if a player (even the poster boy) does not comply with an evidence request, they get suspended for not cooperating. 

I can't see that as a benefit...at least not one that could be planned for.  And I can't see the league managing a convoluted, labyrinthian "plot" to, maybe (if everything breaks exactly right) possibly, control the news cycle on some of the NFL's warts.  Especially if they're "manufacturing" all the charges...because then the league rep takes ANOTHER hit at the end of this process.

It sounds too convoluted to be a) plausible and b) for THIS league to pull off.  Isn't it much more likely (and simple) that the NFL simply believes Brady did it?

I could see it as benefit, so I guess we'll depart on that point.  It's quite easy for them to control the mainstream sports media cycle having ESPN as a partner.  And it's just about impossible for the league to not take yet another opportunity to further consolidate its power over the players.

[pilferk]

I believe it was a home game. Last season, week 7.

Choose from below:

a) That particular officiating crew made the balls "less available" for access, after pre-game testing
b) That's when the plan to be ready to "tamper" with the balls began, as a backup to the official overinflating
c) There isn't enough time to deflate approx 4+ psi from that many balls in the limited amount of access time "the guys" had to the balls, which meant even after adjustment, they were stiffer
d) Starting at that high a PSI created a different "touch" since the balls had been overstretched
e) Something we're not immediately thinking of

There's tons of "what ifs" that would make that scenario plausible.

Weren't there some specific text messages that seemed like they might be sort of talking around just this scenario in the report?  I'd have to revisit, and I didn't read them in that light at the time, so I'd have to check dates/times, etc.

[pilferk]

There is practically no legit evidence in the Wells Report that the Pats illegally under inflated footballs; the only evidence in there that bordered on scientific was debunked.

That's where we'll have to disagree....and it likely hinges on what you consider "legit evidence".

I think, taken piece by piece, there is some questionable stuff. The problem is, when you view it all together, you're seeing a lot of suspicious activity, both before, during, and after, that needs to be explained away. And the explanations, to me, ring hollow. They sound like things a kid caught with a hand in the cookie jar might say.  There's TOO MUCH, Imho, To allow all of it to be explained away. I just can't get there.  There's no smoking gun....but there doesn't need to be. Some people seem to be looking for a taped phone call from "Deflator" to Brady, outlining the exact plan, how to execute it, and how Brady plans to conquer the world (complete with maniacal laugh). That's just not going to happen, and it's not the standard the NFL has set, in the past.  There is "enough" for me (and seemingly, lots of other well informed folks, too....and I say that not to add weight to it, but to demonstrate that there is reasonable disagreement, and I'm not alone on an island, here.), with whats there.  And the more we hear, read, and see....the more that seems to pile on.  If you want to chalk that up to the evil NFL conspiring to do...whatever...fair enough.  We will likely part company there, too.

I think the science has been alternately proved and debunked, depending on who and what you read.  The 2 folks I believe seem to err on the side of "raises eybrows, but doesn't outright prove".  They don't seem to think the differential and reduction can entirely be explained by the weather and the IGL, because the math doesn't quite work out.  To me, the science would only disprove, it doesn't need to be the sole evidence needed to "prove". 

[pilferk]

Jets fans totally trolled the Pats practice facility, today:

[GeorgeSteele]

There is practically no legit evidence in the Wells Report that the Pats illegally under inflated footballs; the only evidence in there that bordered on scientific was debunked.

That's where we'll have to disagree....and it likely hinges on what you consider "legit evidence".

I think, taken piece by piece, there is some questionable stuff. The problem is, when you view it all together, you're seeing a lot of suspicious activity, both before, during, and after, that needs to be explained away. And the explanations, to me, ring hollow. They sound like things a kid caught with a hand in the cookie jar might say.  There's TOO MUCH, Imho, To allow all of it to be explained away. I just can't get there.  There's no smoking gun....but there doesn't need to be. Some people seem to be looking for a taped phone call from "Deflator" to Brady, outlining the exact plan, how to execute it, and how Brady plans to conquer the world (complete with maniacal laugh). That's just not going to happen, and it's not the standard the NFL has set, in the past.  There is "enough" for me (and seemingly, lots of other well informed folks, too....and I say that not to add weight to it, but to demonstrate that there is reasonable disagreement, and I'm not alone on an island, here.), with whats there.  And the more we hear, read, and see....the more that seems to pile on.  If you want to chalk that up to the evil NFL conspiring to do...whatever...fair enough.  We will likely part company there, too.

I think the science has been alternately proved and debunked, depending on who and what you read.  The 2 folks I believe seem to err on the side of "raises eybrows, but doesn't outright prove".  They don't seem to think the differential and reduction can entirely be explained by the weather and the IGL, because the math doesn't quite work out.  To me, the science would only disprove, it doesn't need to be the sole evidence needed to "prove". 

Certainly, I can see how one can reasonably reach a conclusion of guilt based on the report, as one-sided as it is; I just couldn't get there, and I'm not on an island with that view either.  As for my personal views on the NFL's calculated PR efforts on this... I don't think anyone necessarily needs to agree with me on that in order to believe Brady is innocent.  Could simply be a matter of the NFL being so dug in that they couldn't lose face by acknowledging they were wrong and risk setting a bad precedent for themselves with future player disciplinary issues. 

[faldor]

I believe it was a home game. Last season, week 7.

Choose from below:

a) That particular officiating crew made the balls "less available" for access, after pre-game testing
b) That's when the plan to be ready to "tamper" with the balls began, as a backup to the official overinflating
c) There isn't enough time to deflate approx 4+ psi from that many balls in the limited amount of access time "the guys" had to the balls, which meant even after adjustment, they were stiffer
d) Starting at that high a PSI created a different "touch" since the balls had been overstretched
e) Something we're not immediately thinking of

There's tons of "what ifs" that would make that scenario plausible.

Weren't there some specific text messages that seemed like they might be sort of talking around just this scenario in the report?  I'd have to revisit, and I didn't read them in that light at the time, so I'd have to check dates/times, etc.

I think we have some miscommunication here. I didn't ask how the balls got to 16 psi. I asked why Brady would alert the league officials of the protocol for air pressure in balls if he was knowingly having his guys deflate balls below the legal limit? He did this, as outlined in the Wells report, after that Jets game.

[faldor]

Some leisure reading, if you're so inclined.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/30/2009-jets-patriotsincident-becomes-issue-in-brady-case/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-nfls-basic-due-process-is-the-real-issue-in-the-deflategate-controversy/2015/07/30/ebda3b02-3666-11e5-9d0f-7865a67390ee_story.html

http://www.wired.com/2015/07/even-tom-brady-smash-phone-itd-make-zero-sense/

[faldor]

The same league that burned the tapes from my very own New England Patriots following Spygate. They don't always share the correct evidence. Yes, it seems they pick and choose. I fully believe they could've run with those initial reports and never corrected them if the Pats kneeled down and accepted discipline. Why else did they let that report out there so long? Only because of the Wells Report did we get the actual numbers. You think if discipline was doled out based on those initial numbers, months later they would've come out.

They "left it out there" so long, likely, because it was a leak, not Presser.  And the numbers were starting to get questioned pretty quick...about 24 to 48 hours post the leak (which you actually kindly pointed out in the discussions at the time, I think)...so after that, there wasn't much reason. AND, when the NFL officials DID finally comment (before the Wells Report was issued), they said those numbers were not official and they had no exact numbers to share.  It's not a refutation of the numbers, but it's as close as you can reasonably expect to get when addressing "a leak".

First, I think that initial report hung out there for more than 2 days before being questioned. I think it was more like 2 weeks. Regardless though, the damage was already done with that initial erroneous report, which Chris Mortensen will address for the first time tomorrow on WEEI in Boston. The salaciousness of 11 of the 12 balls being 2 psi below the limit was engrained in the collective mind of the public. You had ex players who were beaten repeatedly by the Patriots during their playing days literally crying on ESPN over this ordeal. The initial leak drove the story. People read the sexy headlines and base their judgement off of that. Hell, when the Wells Report came out Maddog Russo was up in arms about Brady cheating and how the report proved it. But at the same time, he admitted to not actually reading the report on WEEI. Then the other day with the "Brady DESTROYED Cellphone" headline. Another crafty way of reeling the public into the palm of your hand. They needed something to validate upholding the ridiculous suspension. DESTRUCTION of a cellphone that previously wasn't needed fit the bill just fine. And the public continues to eat it up.

The NFL has done a great job sucking the public in against a common enemy over a very minor offense, after failing to appease them over their mishandling of much more serious offenses the last few years.

I can't wait to see how they handle the latest criminal situation involving the Jets Sheldon Richardson. We'll see if they've learned anything.

[faldor]

Jets fans totally trolled the Pats practice facility, today:

https://imgflip.com/i/ovr33

Jets making the news for all the wrong reasons again. Banner day for them (see what I did there?) with Sheldon Richardson capping it off.

[pilferk]

I believe it was a home game. Last season, week 7.

Choose from below:

a) That particular officiating crew made the balls "less available" for access, after pre-game testing
b) That's when the plan to be ready to "tamper" with the balls began, as a backup to the official overinflating
c) There isn't enough time to deflate approx 4+ psi from that many balls in the limited amount of access time "the guys" had to the balls, which meant even after adjustment, they were stiffer
d) Starting at that high a PSI created a different "touch" since the balls had been overstretched
e) Something we're not immediately thinking of

There's tons of "what ifs" that would make that scenario plausible.

Weren't there some specific text messages that seemed like they might be sort of talking around just this scenario in the report?  I'd have to revisit, and I didn't read them in that light at the time, so I'd have to check dates/times, etc.

I think we have some miscommunication here. I didn't ask how the balls got to 16 psi. I asked why Brady would alert the league officials of the protocol for air pressure in balls if he was knowingly having his guys deflate balls below the legal limit? He did this, as outlined in the Wells report, after that Jets game.

Yes...see reasons above.

[pilferk]

Jets fans totally trolled the Pats practice facility, today:

https://imgflip.com/i/ovr33

Jets making the news for all the wrong reasons again. Banner day for them (see what I did there?) with Sheldon Richardson capping it off.

C'mon..the banner thing is freaking hilarious.

The Sheldon Richardson this is sort of funny, too...considering he'd JUST done a round of interviews talking about how he realized his mistake and had learned from it.

Apparently what he learned was how to emulate "The Fast and the Furious".

[faldor]

I believe it was a home game. Last season, week 7.

Choose from below:

a) That particular officiating crew made the balls "less available" for access, after pre-game testing
b) That's when the plan to be ready to "tamper" with the balls began, as a backup to the official overinflating
c) There isn't enough time to deflate approx 4+ psi from that many balls in the limited amount of access time "the guys" had to the balls, which meant even after adjustment, they were stiffer
d) Starting at that high a PSI created a different "touch" since the balls had been overstretched
e) Something we're not immediately thinking of

There's tons of "what ifs" that would make that scenario plausible.

Weren't there some specific text messages that seemed like they might be sort of talking around just this scenario in the report?  I'd have to revisit, and I didn't read them in that light at the time, so I'd have to check dates/times, etc.

I think we have some miscommunication here. I didn't ask how the balls got to 16 psi. I asked why Brady would alert the league officials of the protocol for air pressure in balls if he was knowingly having his guys deflate balls below the legal limit? He did this, as outlined in the Wells report, after that Jets game.

Yes...see reasons above.

Maybe I'm not understanding your points there, but I don't see how that answers the question I posed. Let's follow the logic of this possible scenario. So Brady gets pissed about the balls being 16 psi against the Jets. So he outlines the psi regulations to the officials so they're made aware and the overinflating won't happen again. And THEN, on top of that, he instructs his equipment guys to deflate balls to or below the limit. AFTER he notified the officials to be on the lookout of the psi readings? Doesn't make much sense to me. Did he figure they'd never check the psi since they didn't check it in the Jets game? If that's the case, why make them aware of it. If you're messing with the balls, I think the last thing you'd want to do is to draw attention to the matter. Same logic would apply if they were deflating balls before the Jets game and just missed out that week for one of those reasons you mentioned.

[faldor]

The banner was funny, but it's sad how much the Jets obsess over the Patriots. I realize this wasn't the team itself, and just some fan site, but still. They've tried to build this rivalry, when it's been a bit one sided over the last 15 years. Though they'll point to that ONE playoff win. I think things will tone down a bit with the coaching change, but they're always trying to embarass the Patriots off the field, since they can't do it on it. It's pathetic.

Oh, and not surprising, Mortensen canceled his interview with WEEI. Comical.

http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2015/07/31/espns-chris-mortensen-backs-out-of-interview-with-dc-refuses-to-explain-inaccurate-deflategate-report-that-fueled-anti-patriots-furor/

[faldor]

http://www.stradleylaw.com/deflategate-legal-questions/

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/4385756546001/deflategate-investigation-unfair/?#sp=show-clips

Preach!

[pilferk]

I believe it was a home game. Last season, week 7.

Choose from below:

a) That particular officiating crew made the balls "less available" for access, after pre-game testing
b) That's when the plan to be ready to "tamper" with the balls began, as a backup to the official overinflating
c) There isn't enough time to deflate approx 4+ psi from that many balls in the limited amount of access time "the guys" had to the balls, which meant even after adjustment, they were stiffer
d) Starting at that high a PSI created a different "touch" since the balls had been overstretched
e) Something we're not immediately thinking of

There's tons of "what ifs" that would make that scenario plausible.

Weren't there some specific text messages that seemed like they might be sort of talking around just this scenario in the report?  I'd have to revisit, and I didn't read them in that light at the time, so I'd have to check dates/times, etc.

I think we have some miscommunication here. I didn't ask how the balls got to 16 psi. I asked why Brady would alert the league officials of the protocol for air pressure in balls if he was knowingly having his guys deflate balls below the legal limit? He did this, as outlined in the Wells report, after that Jets game.

Yes...see reasons above.

Maybe I'm not understanding your points there, but I don't see how that answers the question I posed. Let's follow the logic of this possible scenario. So Brady gets pissed about the balls being 16 psi against the Jets. So he outlines the psi regulations to the officials so they're made aware and the overinflating won't happen again. And THEN, on top of that, he instructs his equipment guys to deflate balls to or below the limit. AFTER he notified the officials to be on the lookout of the psi readings? Doesn't make much sense to me. Did he figure they'd never check the psi since they didn't check it in the Jets game? If that's the case, why make them aware of it. If you're messing with the balls, I think the last thing you'd want to do is to draw attention to the matter. Same logic would apply if they were deflating balls before the Jets game and just missed out that week for one of those reasons you mentioned.

Yes.

Because they know the current procedure is to check the balls only pre-game...not during or post game.

And they'll have access after that check.

So they want them inflated as close to the lower limit as possible to make it easier, post exam, to adjust the balls....since they know, afterwards, they're not ever checked.

OR

Brady made them aware, but enacted a "backup plan" with the equipment guys to make sure, if the officials didn't comply, there was a way to try to get those balls softer...and maybe that was taken to far. Maybe the intent (by Brady) wasn't even for the balls to be taken "under" the limits.

OR

One of the other things I mentioned factored in, in combination with the above.