2015 NFL Season

[pilferk]

There's a report saying they almost bargained it down to one game but the league refused to seal all the findings so Brady said no to that.

Don't dislike Brady ... But take ur medicine and move on.

The NFLPA is saying those reports are rubbish, I think that's the word they used. I honestly don't think the NFL had any desire to cut a deal, so I'll choose to believe those reports are untrue. Just like so many before them.

I've heard the same thing (rubbish).

I've heard all settlement talks started and ended with the same thing: because the nfl wanted Brady to, even "loosely", admit guilt AND wanted all findings published, publically.

There was never a number discerned because that was a non-starter for brady...who also said 1 game was too many.

[faldor]

Not surprised at all that the suspension was upheld. I don't think the NFL had any intention of reaching a compromise. The only thing that made me think there was a slight possibility was that Greg Hardy's 10 game suspension was reduced to 4. Obviously a different case altogether. But I thought maybe it would look bad for a guy who beat the crap out of his girlfriend gets the same suspension as a guy who is charged as being generally aware that some air was taken out of footballs.

But again, this thing got personal early on, and neither side is willing to budge.

I'm not sure why Brady's lawyer offered the information that his cell phone was destroyed. It doesn't seem like a good move on their part. He'd have been better off just refusing to let them see his phone, whether it was destroyed or not. Is it possible that the league checked his phone records and found out he had gotten a new phone in March, and thus asked him what happened to his old phone? I just don't see the advantage of offering that information up. It's tough to explain, and defend.

Discovery.

They pretty much had to tell the nfl during appeal, or risk having to disclose when going to trial, and having a judge look poorly on the lack of disclosure during the appeal process.

They are generally held to looser evidentiary rules during appeal, but thats sort of a biggie, too. Withholding that bit of info could, in and of itself, be seen as undermining the process, and not cooperating. I don't think the nflpa was willing to risk that.....

That makes sense. Can't they still get him for not cooperating by destroying possible evidence?

It's also my understanding that while this makes Brady look bad, this won't really matter in court. It's more about the procedure. So he could still have a pretty fair shot.

1) they might be able to get him for not cooperating/destroying evidence (well, the nfl will argue they have gotten him) but not for lying about the evidence. Again, brady/et al don't want to give the judge any bad taste in their mouth. That kind of "surprise" wouldn't play well for them in court. And, given the evidentiary rules....the lie might be seen as a violation of the process they are arguing the nfl violated.

2) the nflpa and brady WANT it to be about procedure and policy.....the nfl is going to counterargue its about evidence and discretion of the commisioners office. It all depends on what the judge decides, and the fewer "surprises", the easier it is for Bradys team to keep the focus on procedure, and not evidence. Bradys team doesn't want anything to crop up that bolsters the nfls claims. This way, its all above biard when the judge reviews the case before deciding to hear it or not.

Honestly, i think it's slightly better than even odds (60/40) a federal judge even chooses to hear the case. It will likely depend whose docket it goes on. Given the collective bargaining agreement and the broad powers of discretion it gives the commish over all things not specifically mentioned....its not a slam dunk Bradys case gets heard.

If it does, i don't expect resolution before november/december.

Things appeared to be going so well until today. It looked like Brady had a slam dunk case and would easily win in court. Now it's not even a guarantee he can get a court to take the case. Stating the obvious, but I don't think destroying the cell phone was the best idea he's ever had. It's not a good look.

[pilferk]

Things appeared to be going so well until today. It looked like Brady had a slam dunk case and would easily win in court. Now it's not even a guarantee he can get a court to take the case. Stating the obvious, but I don't think destroying the cell phone was the best idea he's ever had. It's not a good look.

Brady says the phone was "broken" and "replaced", after his attorney's told Wells/the NFL that under no circumstances could they examine the phone. But the timing of it (the day he met with Wells) creates a terrible optic.  And it's another unfortunate "coincidence" in a long line of circumstantial, and poorly reflective, coincidence.  But, by the by, I don't think that actually has a lot of bearing on whether the case is heard or not.

Even before the destruction of the phone, it wasn't a slam dunk case.  A lot of the things the NFLPA are trying to argue (Goodell hearing the arbitration, etc) are actually specifically outlined in the Collective Bargaining Agreement as being allowed/acceptable.  Many (if not most) judges are not going to over rule those provisions, because the Union signed off on them already.  I know it all sounds outrageous and "unfair"....but they are essentially arguing that what's in the CBA violates "something". 

Some of the rest....it depends on your general POV.  The Commish has broad powers under the "integrity of the game" sections of the CBA, and in the general conduct sections, and that's what the NFL is using to uphold it's opinions.  It's not couching this under the "Equipment" penalties, which is what the NFLPA wants to hold sway.   The NFL is also arguing that, in the event of an unforseen, and "new", situation...the Union can't tie the Commish's hands, and that dealing with those situations falls within the broad, general, powers of discipline that the Commish holds (and are detailed in the CBA). The "new rules" actually help the NFL show that this was something "new", this was the first time it had come up, and now they are addressing it formally.

The NFLPA (and others) obviously disagree.  But if a judge agrees, outright, with the NFL...they can simply hold up the CBA and say "I don't see a case here...I'm not hearing it".

[JAEBALL]

Bob Kraft basically just admitted that he made a deal so that Brady could get his suspension shortened, and that he was wrong to do to that...

This organization is just so full of it... they have been bending the rules for 15 years... just shut up already ! 

The fanbase should give it a rest already too... the nFl WANTS TO GO AFTER THE MARQUEE player without cause... somebody will have to explain that to me one day.

[JAEBALL]

Profootballtalk is reporting Brady turned down the shortened suspension if he admits his guilt. They usually don't report garbage.

[faldor]

Profootballtalk is reporting Brady turned down the shortened suspension if he admits his guilt. They usually don't report garbage.

He wasn't willing to admit guilt, and the NFL "demanded" that. So a shortened suspension never got off the ground floor.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/29/tom-brady-says-nfl-made-no-counteroffer/

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/29/why-didnt-goodell-increase-bradys-suspension/

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/28/brady-offered-to-help-nfl-gather-missing-text-messages/

If nothing else, the NFL can (when it wants to) master the art of public relations. Sure, the league screwed the pooch in the Ray Rice debacle last year, failing to realize that a video existed and that it would inevitably be leaked. But while the #DeflateGate episode has featured many very real flaws regarding the substance of the case, the league has done a great job of getting its messages out in a strong, clear way.

It started, of course, with the mistaken air pressure information from the initial letter to the Patriots, in which league executive Dave Gardi told the team that one of the footballs measured at 10.1 PSI ? even though none of them were that low. It quickly continued with the leak of blatantly false information to ESPN that 11 of the 12 Patriots footballs were a full two pounds under the 12.5 PSI minimum. This cemented the notion that someone deflated the footballs, leaving only two questions: (1) who did it?; and (2) who knew about it?

Months later, it became clear that the information was incorrect. But the damage already had been done, with a curiosity instantly morphing into a multi-million-dollar investigation and the Patriots thrown against the ropes from the outset of the fight.

The P.R. mastery continued with the release of the Ted Wells report, which created the initial widespread impression that the Patriots cheated, and that quarterback Tom Brady knew about it. By the time those in the media inclined to digest the 243-page opus began to notice the warts, the narrative had been locked in by those who admittedly didn?t bother to roll up their sleeves and start reading.

The coup de gr?ce came Tuesday morning, when the league leaked to ESPN that ?Brady destroyed his cell phone,? locking in the notion that something sinister ? and irreparable ? had occurred. The press release announcing the decision likewise focused on the destruction of the cell phone, raising eyebrows from sea to shining sea and reinforcing for many the idea that Brady had something to hide, and that he tried to hide it.

But like the much longer Wells report, closer inspection of the Goodell decision undermines the primary conclusion. And, as usual, the Achilles heel can be found in a footnote.

Specifically, it can be found at footnote 11 on page 12: ?After the hearing and after the submission of post-hearing briefs, Mr. Brady?s certified agents offered to provide a spreadsheet that would identify all of the individuals with whom Mr. Brady had exchanged text messages during [the relevant time] period; the agents suggested that the League could contact those individuals and request production of any relevant text messages that they retained. Aside from the fact that, under Article 46, Section 2(f) of the CBA, such information could and should have been provided long before the hearing, the approach suggested in the agents? letter ? which would require tracking down numerous individuals and seeking consent from each to retrieve from their cellphones detailed information about their text message communications during the relevant period ? is simply not practical.?

In English, here?s what the footnote means: Although the text messages couldn?t be retrieved directly from Brady?s phone, his agents provided all of the phone numbers with which Brady exchanged text messages. His agents also said that the league could attempt to get the actual text messages from the phones of the people with whom Brady communicated, but the league refused to attempt to try, claiming that it would be too hard to track down the various people and to persuade them to cooperate.

How hard would it be? Goodell?s ruling points out that ?nearly 10,000 text messages? were exchanged on Brady?s phone in a four-month period, but Goodell?s ruling doesn?t provide the total volume of numbers that sent text messages to or received text messages from Brady?s ?destroyed? phone. At an average of 2,500 text messages sent and received per month, which works out to an average of 83 sent and received per day (with some people surely sending and receiving a lot of short messages to and from Brady), how many people was he actually communicating with?

More importantly, how many of those people are Patriots employees, how many are family members, how many are friends, how many are people who would have no reason to be saying anything to or hearing anything from Brady about this specific case?

?I very much look forward to hearing from Mr. Brady and to considering any new information or evidence that he may bring to my attention,? Goodell said last month. And so Brady admits that he has a habit of dismantling his phone when he buys a new one, he provides the full list of phone numbers with which the dismantled phone communicated, and Goodell nevertheless refuses to try to identify the persons with whom Brady exchanged messages or to obtain the actual content of them, despite the commitment to ?considering any new information or evidence.?

The league arguably opted not to track down the text messages or to match them up with text messages that the league already harvested from other phones, like the one used by John Jastremski, because the league already had the silver bullet it needed to win convincingly in the court of public opinion.

Tom Brady destroyed his cell phone.

It was expertly leaked to ESPN by the same league office that had expertly leaked the 11-of-12 footballs falsehood to ESPN.

Tom Brady destroyed his cell phone.

It?s a theme that will be adhered to even though Brady made available the phone numbers necessary to reconstructing the contents of the messages.

Tom Brady destroyed his cell phone.

The details don?t matter once the message takes root. For #DeflateGate, a couple of giant oaks are growing at the NFL?s equivalent of Toomer?s Corner. The first one? 11 of 12 footballs were two pounds under the minimum PSI.

The second?

Tom Brady destroyed his cell phone.

[faldor]

Bob Kraft basically just admitted that he made a deal so that Brady could get his suspension shortened, and that he was wrong to do to that...

This organization is just so full of it... they have been bending the rules for 15 years... just shut up already ! 

The fanbase should give it a rest already too... the nFl WANTS TO GO AFTER THE MARQUEE player without cause... somebody will have to explain that to me one day.

The Patriots are just the latest team to fell the wrath of the NFL, albeit in a much more sever and public manner. Bottom line is, the NFL has way too much power and can control any story to curry favor with the public. The union agreed to hand this much power to Goodell, but I think it was a mistake. And that's an understatement.

[GeorgeSteele]

Faldor, I agree 100% that this is all about PR.  In a short period of time, the NFL has managed to essentially bury any media coverage of its concussion and domestic violence issues by manufacturing a major scandal out a meaningless infraction (if there was an infraction).  Right there beside them has been its partner, ESPN, whose monopoly on sports media has allowed the NFL to dictate the narrative on this. 

[JAEBALL]

Bob Kraft basically just admitted that he made a deal so that Brady could get his suspension shortened, and that he was wrong to do to that...

This organization is just so full of it... they have been bending the rules for 15 years... just shut up already ! 

The fanbase should give it a rest already too... the nFl WANTS TO GO AFTER THE MARQUEE player without cause... somebody will have to explain that to me one day.

The Patriots are just the latest team to fell the wrath of the NFL, albeit in a much more sever and public manner. Bottom line is, the NFL has way too much power and can control any story to curry favor with the public. The union agreed to hand this much power to Goodell, but I think it was a mistake. And that's an understatement.

I don't disagree with you. Goodell... there are no words for him. But, the last team I care to hear about being treated unfairly is this team...

[JAEBALL]

faldor

Why do you think the league is out to get Brady here?

[JAEBALL]

Listening to Bob Kraft talk about honesty and integrity really made my day.   

[faldor]

faldor

Why do you think the league is out to get Brady here?

It would be more accurate to say the league is out to get the Patriots as an organization. Tom Brady just happens to be the focal point this time around. It's no secret that Goodell has handled punishments horribly uneven in the past. He's gotten a lot of scrutiny for it. So recently, he's been going hard after anyone who slips up. Now you've got the Patriots, who everyone thinks has cheated for the last 15 years, there for the taking. You can't sweep this under the rug, because there'd be outrage amongst the rest of the league. The league was tipped off before the game and they did nothing to stop it. And once there was some evidence, they had to go hard after the Pats. Goodell cares a great deal about public perception. He'd much rather have 1 franchise hate him than 31.

I think GeorgeSteele makes a good point. The NFL launched this thing from the get go. They made it the huge story that it has become and they have never done anything to calm the waters. They leaked false information from the beginning, making the Patriots look bad and guilty. They had to follow through, and I think they wanted to follow through. If the REAL psi #'s were reported initially instead of the erroneous more than 2 psi below the limit, reported falsely by Chris Mortensen of ESPN, this would've been a non story. There would have been a small fine, and it'd be over.

They've continued to leak information to make the Patriots look bad so the vast majority of people stay on their side. Even yesterday, if you read the article I posted from profootballtalk.com. They leaked the story through Stephen A. Smith, an ESPN employee no less. They delicately put it thst Tom Brady destroyed his cell phone. Now, I admit, it looks bad anyway you slice it. But if it's true that Brady was told they wouldn't be searching his phone, and then when they did want to Brady's team offered to give them a list of all relevant parties that he texted around that time. The NFL didn't want to put the work in on that. So he did try to cooperate. I guess not in the manner they liked.

The NFL has used the media to control the public perception of this story since the the final whistle blew in the AFCCG. They want to appease the other 31 owners, and they've done all they could in that respect. Now if it goes to court, it's out of their hands. They can't really lose now. If the suspension stays at 4 games, it's a clear victory for them. If the suspension is reduced or gotten rid of altogether, then they have Brady available to play opening night and a season full of speculation and drama surrounding the Patriots. They've played things beautifully if you're into that kind of thing.

Edit - I'd also like to add, it's not ALL about the Patriots, just in this particular instance for all the reasons I mentioned. Goodell went unnecessarily hard after the Saints in Bountygate. At that time people were freaking out about concussions. Ex players were popping up all over with dementia, etc. He made it a point to focus on improving player safety. So he came down hard on a team who was rewarding their players for hard hits. Again, appealing to the public outcry. The Patriots won't be the last team to get dragged through the mud over some perceived scandal. Honestly, did anyone ever think about psi before January 18th? Yet all of a sudden, it's the biggest crime going in the sports world and viewed on the same level as PED use? Seems a little over the top to me.

[faldor]

Some interesting points here by Brady's agent.

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/tom-bradys-agent-says-nfl-mischaracterized-cell-phone-issue

[JAEBALL]

TOM BRADY IS GUILTY

Let's move on 

I don't care about his cell phone.. whether he broke it..whether the NFL exaggerated it for PR...none of that...

Tom Brady either instructed, hinted to or knew the equipment guy was tampering with the balls.... END OF STORY

AND THEN INSTEAD of saying I did not realize what an error in judgement that was and apologizing ... he has now cost himself 4 games, his team a first round pick and a ton of embarrassment. none of which would have happened to him and the pats if he didn't lie and act so defiant and all high n mighty. Also... YES he is being hammered because the other owners have had enough of Kraft and Bill getting away with murder, but again... if he didn't thumb his nose at the league...this would have been over with months ago.

With all this said... when the time comes in a few weeks... I will be all over him in fantasy drafts if he slips tot he right spot 

[GeorgeSteele]

TOM BRADY IS GUILTY

Let's move on 

I don't care about his cell phone.. whether he broke it..whether the NFL exaggerated it for PR...none of that...

Tom Brady either instructed, hinted to or knew the equipment guy was tampering with the balls.... END OF STORY

AND THEN INSTEAD of saying I did not realize what an error in judgement that was and apologizing ... he has now cost himself 4 games, his team a first round pick and a ton of embarrassment. none of which would have happened to him and the pats if he didn't lie and act so defiant and all high n mighty. Also... YES he is being hammered because the other owners have had enough of Kraft and Bill getting away with murder, but again... if he didn't thumb his nose at the league...this would have been over with months ago.

With all this said... when the time comes in a few weeks... I will be all over him in fantasy drafts if he slips tot he right spot 

Before even getting to Brady's guilt, what has you convinced that balls were illegally tampered with to begin with?  The media leaks about the PSI levels at the AFC Championship have since been called out as bullshit.  The Well Report, the investigation that was independent but really wasn't at all, contained scientific conclusions on PSI levels that have been laughed at by several actually independent scientific studies.  Then you have a text message where the equipment guy calls himself a "deflator".  If that somehow proves that he was deflating footballs, how do we know he was deflating footballs below the legal minimum? 

I hate the Pats as much as the next non-New England area football fan, and I'd be happy to call them out as cheaters, even if it is for something that provides an insignificant edge, but I need more to go on than we've been given. 

[JAEBALL]

TOM BRADY IS GUILTY

Let's move on 

I don't care about his cell phone.. whether he broke it..whether the NFL exaggerated it for PR...none of that...

Tom Brady either instructed, hinted to or knew the equipment guy was tampering with the balls.... END OF STORY

AND THEN INSTEAD of saying I did not realize what an error in judgement that was and apologizing ... he has now cost himself 4 games, his team a first round pick and a ton of embarrassment. none of which would have happened to him and the pats if he didn't lie and act so defiant and all high n mighty. Also... YES he is being hammered because the other owners have had enough of Kraft and Bill getting away with murder, but again... if he didn't thumb his nose at the league...this would have been over with months ago.

With all this said... when the time comes in a few weeks... I will be all over him in fantasy drafts if he slips tot he right spot 

Before even getting to Brady's guilt, what has you convinced that balls were illegally tampered with to begin with?  The media leaks about the PSI levels at the AFC Championship have since been called out as bullshit.  The Well Report, the investigation that was independent but really wasn't at all, contained scientific conclusions on PSI levels that have been laughed at by several actually independent scientific studies.  Then you have a text message where the equipment guy calls himself a "deflator".  If that somehow proves that he was deflating footballs, how do we know he was deflating footballs below the legal minimum? 

I hate the Pats as much as the next non-New England area football fan, and I'd be happy to call them out as cheaters, even if it is for something that provides an insignificant edge, but I need more to go on than we've been given. 

George

I have not read thru all the reports and documents...not my thing.. it really doesn't interest me much..

I just think there is some common sense involved. This story is not just a big conspiracy so the NFL can suspend and make their best player look bad for the world to see... If it is one big smoke show to let Goodell appear to be flexing his muscles or righting some wrongs... i would think he would do it to a different player, maybe i'm being COMPLETELY naive... I don't know.

I just can't buy that.. If you don't think there is precise proof as to what brady did... maybe you are right.. I'm just not looking at it that way.

When the shoe fits...

[pilferk]

George Atallah (NFLPA Asst Director of External Affairs) just said, on Mike and Mike:

"This isn't about whether Tom is guilty or not, it's about whether the collective bargaining agreement was violated".

[JAEBALL]

George Atallah (NFLPA Asst Director of External Affairs) just said, on Mike and Mike:

"This isn't about whether Tom is guilty or not, it's about whether the collective bargaining agreement was violated".

In terms of the suspension should hold up or whether or not they broke a rule with the balls?

[pilferk]

George Atallah (NFLPA Asst Director of External Affairs) just said, on Mike and Mike:

"This isn't about whether Tom is guilty or not, it's about whether the collective bargaining agreement was violated".

In terms of the suspension should hold up or whether or not they broke a rule with the balls?

The context was him discussing the NFLPA suit (already filed in Minnesota..though they didn't get the judge they wanted...and it may get moved to New York) against the NFL, on behalf of Tom Brady.

In essence, he just said what I said the other day:

The NFLPA wants this to be about process, not whether the evidence might be examined and a conclusion drawn that Brady did something wrong (or was generally aware that something wrong was being done).

They are taking a similar tact that Ryan Braun took for his initial PED suspension.....they're attacking the specific language in the Collective bargaining agreement, and trying to poke holes in the process around that.

[JAEBALL]

George Atallah (NFLPA Asst Director of External Affairs) just said, on Mike and Mike:

"This isn't about whether Tom is guilty or not, it's about whether the collective bargaining agreement was violated".

In terms of the suspension should hold up or whether or not they broke a rule with the balls?

The context was him discussing the NFLPA suit (already filed in Minnesota..though they didn't get the judge they wanted...and it may get moved to New York) against the NFL, on behalf of Tom Brady.

In essence, he just said what I said the other day:

The NFLPA wants this to be about process, not whether the evidence might be examined and a conclusion drawn that Brady did something wrong (or was generally aware that something wrong was being done).

They are taking a similar tact that Ryan Braun took for his initial PED suspension.....they're attacking the specific language in the Collective bargaining agreement, and trying to poke holes in the process around that.

Yeah. Makes sense on their end.

More importantly... Giants camp opens today.. and please lord let Beatty and JPP be the end of it.